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[Kappa Neko]

Why does that lovable idiot have to sacrifice himself for me?!
I just finished my first playthrough last night (better late than never, eh?) and this outcome really depressed me. I like tragic endings, but *I* wanted to be the one to die for my love.... Why did whiny Alistair have to do the one grown up brave thing in the entire game when I didn't want it?!
I keep hearing the Morrigan fans got screwed, but from what I've read the only way to get a happy ending for Alistair and my character is to give Morrigan what she wants. And that's one hell of a bitter pill to swallow for me! I like Morrigan a lot, but this god child of hers just sounds SO wrong....
I read that saving Lohgain will lead to the option of having him sacrifice himself, but that this will also lead to Alistair breaking up with me? At least this way he lives and no demon child will plunge the world into chaos. But that's not a happy ending, either, to me.
I was so sad Alistair died that I couldn't share everybody's happiness about having ended the Blight. What made things worse was that nobody seemed to care that he died. Not even Wynne who even apologized for her harsh words about the romance earlier in the game. I was shocked and angry that all she said was something along the lines of  "Poor boy, but oh well, cheer up, you're a living hero." Ahrr... the other companions said nothing at all.
I got the feeling BW didn't put all that effort into the game towards the end. I thought the build-up to the final battle was awesome. But the actual killing of the Archdemon and the epilogue disappointed me. DA:O doesn't have the cinematic style of ME, but I was expecting something a little more spectacular and emotional.
Despite the unsatisfactory resolution, I loved the game. Much to my surprise. I don't like blood, orcs and medieval settings  That's why I hesitated so long to buy the game.
This game was a revelation concerning character interaction! DA:O may not be the most original game. It doesn't even feature great characters IMO. The voice acting is often a bit over the top to outright ridiculous (I can't help seeing the cat from Shrek when Zevran talks!). My character doesn't have a voice, ... Mass Effect is superior in many ways. BUT there's one very important thing that DA:O does *so* much better: yes, character interaction. Everything that I would like to see done better in ME3 was done right in DA:O. Actually this game is what I've been looking for since ME1. Compared to DA:O the dialogues in ME are a joke. I couldn't believe how much Alistair and Wynne talked to me!!! Unfortunately the others talked little to me or not at all because they disapproved of me, so I can't say how much dialogue they have. But Alistair was insane! He'd go on and on. I didn't like him at first (I'm not into the joke cracking man-boy type) but he grew on me and I ended up liking him a great deal. The romance is so adorable.
Everything I want for ME3 is there:
1. random conversations between party members.
      - One of the most enjoyable things was listening to their conversations. I often laughed out loud. ME1 had at least the elevator conversations but ME2 had basically no party banter (I only remember the Tali/Garrus shotgun line).
2. approval bar.
      - I'm so tired of everybody adoring Shepard. It's getting ridiculous. Doesn't make sense for Tali to be attracted to a renegade Shepard. In DA:O you can't romance people who don't like you. Their personality decides what actions they approve of  and which ****** them off. Sten kept telling me that I'm an incapable idiot Very nice. I want that kind of animosity in ME3! What's also very nice his how the standard lines of the party members change according to their attitude towards you. I just wish Alistair wouldn't say "Your desire is my command." when we're about to rush into battle....kind of kills the mood *g*
3. Your party takes notice of your romantic involvement.
         - Ok, not all of them do. Actually only Wynne does and Morrigan when she makes the offer before the final battle. Don't know how it is when you romance somebody else. But these small things make the character seem a lot more alive. ME may have great graphics, great animations and facial expressions, but it seriously lacks party dynamics.
4. Dialogue options and moral choices.
       - Playing DA:O made me realize once again how much the dialogue wheel in ME sucks. You never have to think about what answer is the right one for you. What's the point of giving you the "freedom" to play as you wish when not sticking to either of the two paths results in major disadvantages?! DA:O allowed me to play as I please, since I had no idea how it would affect the plot. Faced with a difficult decision often left me not knowing what to do, and that's awesome. There are one or two morally difficult choices to be made in ME, yes, but I didn't really have to think about them much because I knew what the paragon path was. I loved how DA:O left me clueless about the Dwarfen king. Very much loved the Witherfang storyline as well. What I liked most is how you never know when you're being manipulated. In that respect Morrigan is a great character. Kill Flemeth? How do I know Morrigan is telling the truth? What will she do with the god child?
Now DA2 will feature a dialogue wheel as well. I hope it's going to be an improved one!

Uhm, ok, this was not supposed to turn into a review and Mass Effect comparison. But here you have it. Comments are welcome

I do have a question actually:
Why does Alistair talk about starting to like the idea of becoming king, even though I just made Anora queen, which resulted in him denouncing any claims to the throne??? A consistency error? That's just one of the things that make me believe the developers didn't put that much effort into the small things towards the end. I thought Alistair having nothing to say anymore in Denerim was strange. All I got for not making him king was one line of thank you. No conversation after Riordan revealed the not so suprising secret of the Grey Wardens. Nothing.
  Will he not sacrifice himself if I make him king? Although Anora is queen I get the option to say "You'd be a good king" when he tells me he's going to sacrifice himself. That's confusing....
I didn't make him king because he didn't want to be king. I respect that. Besides, I played as an Elf mage, so I wouldn't have been allowed to rule with him, right?

Sorry for the long post with no clear topic

[IanPolaris]

If you are in love with Alistair and you don't take the Dark Ritual, then Alistair will ALWAYS sacrifice himself for you with the Archdemon if he is in the party. The only way to prevent this is to leave Alistair at the gates (and get some priceless conversation).



-Polaris

[ELE08]

Wow, it's like I'm reading a post from myself December 2009. So nothing much to add there. Except there really is no happy ending with Alistair IMO. If you're in a relationship with him, the DR is just sickening no matter how you try to rationalize it. And him sacrificing himself is just heartwrenching and makes the epilogue very depressing and empty.

Which is why I only romance Zev now. And make hardened Alistair and Anora rule together. Pretty much everyone comes out of that one for the best.

And the thing with Alistair still thinking he's king even if he isn't is a bug. There are some mods to fix it if you're on PC.

[errant_knight]

ELE08 wrote...

Wow, it's like I'm reading a post from myself December 2009. So nothing much to add there. Except there really is no happy ending with Alistair IMO. If you're in a relationship with him, the DR is just sickening no matter how you try to rationalize it. And him sacrificing himself is just heartwrenching and makes the epilogue very depressing and empty.
Which is why I only romance Zev now. And make hardened Alistair and Anora rule together. Pretty much everyone comes out of that one for the best.
And the thing with Alistair still thinking he's king even if he isn't is a bug. There are some mods to fix it if you're on PC.

See, Your feelings about the DR are mine about marrying Alistair to Anora, so milelage varies widely. He can either have an unpleasant time one night, or for the rest of his life.

[tuppence95]

Welcome to the club, Kappa Neko!  It's a rough ending.

If you are playing the game on a pc, there is a mod that I highly recommend.
http://social.biowar...m/project/2573/

One of the many things it does is give you the option to knock Alistair out before he makes the killing blow and do the sacrifice yourself.  It also does a whole lotta other cool things.  

[Gilsa]

Both ME and DAO are great, huh? I find that ME pulls me into the story and I live in the moment more. I feel more connected to the game and that it's all about me, myself, and I. In DAO, it's more of a bird's eye view since I'm aware of other people's plights and make decisions for the whole rather than what my character wants to do. I cannot say which of the two games is "better" and I don't really try. They both fulfill different needs. DAO is great for character interaction and emotional depth, but it can really suck -- it's like being on the Titanic: you see that iceberg coming and you just can't steer the ship away from it no matter which direction you go. While ME is light on character interaction, I still get the universal escapism that I want -- I'm the great big hero with the adoring man on my side. You know, like those race car games where the driver stands with a trophy and a bikini girl at his side in front of his car, lol. =D



Anyway, my game, Alistair walked out at Landsmeet all pissed off at my character. I honestly thought he'd come back. Even when I looked up spoilers in case I wanted to change my mind about Landsmeet, I still wouldn't have done Morrigan's ritual so either he's a drunk or one of us is dead. I almost quit the game right then, but I hadn't romanced the other companions yet and wanted to see what that was like.



Oh, and to answer your question, your elf would not have been allowed to rule. He would have broken up with you if you were anything other than a human noble. Some people got the break-up on their first game and oh, boy, hell have no fury like a woman scorned, right?

[ELE08]

errant_knight wrote...

ELE08 wrote...

Wow, it's like I'm reading a post from myself December 2009. So nothing much to add there. Except there really is no happy ending with Alistair IMO. If you're in a relationship with him, the DR is just sickening no matter how you try to rationalize it. And him sacrificing himself is just heartwrenching and makes the epilogue very depressing and empty.
Which is why I only romance Zev now. And make hardened Alistair and Anora rule together. Pretty much everyone comes out of that one for the best.
And the thing with Alistair still thinking he's king even if he isn't is a bug. There are some mods to fix it if you're on PC.

See, Your feelings about the DR are mine about marrying Alistair to Anora, so milelage varies widely. He can either have an unpleasant time one night, or for the rest of his life.

That's true, and my perspective changed drastically from playing a human noble in love with Alistair and a Dalish Elf that wasn't.  It also made a difference to me whether or not I had befriended Morrigan.  My first (unspoiled) playthrough she had very low approval and I turned her down flat for the DR.  After playing through her complete friendship path I can see trusting her and accepting her offer.

Hardened Alistair that isn't in love with the warden I think could find happiness being king married to Anora.  Pretty much any other variation I see him being unhappy being made king (actually I can think of a few now, but they all involve the DR or no romance with the warden so nm.)

Oh, and my concern about the DR weren't for Alistair's feelings.  So that makes it a selfish decision I guess.  It's just the thought of sending someone you're absolutely in love with to sleep with someone else.  I can rationalize it as the best decision, but it still makes me sick.  Not something I personally want to experience in a game.

Modifié par ELE08, 19 janvier 2011 - 05:53 .

[Kappa Neko]

Thanks for your comments
The unhappy Alistair ending tore me up, but I actually liked the desperate mood descending on me when Riordan died (him sacrificing himself was too good to be true, so I knew this would happen) and it was either going to be Alistair or me. No way out of it... I'm hoping we'll be getting some good (romance) drama in ME3. I don't want another ME2 "suicide" mission with nobody dying! But please, I don't want Kaidan to die. I'd love to be able to choose somebody else to die in his place, though, including myself. 
Yep, ME is centered around Shepard and offers an intense identification with that character. I felt nothing whatsoever about my character in DA:O. I guess this is why BW decided to make DA2 more like ME. If this is that good a decision, we'll see. ME has this "we can survive anything" mood, especially ME2,  that feels great most of the time. I liked the darker atmosphere in ME1 better, though.  I guess it comes down to what kind of person you are. I love dark, tragic tales. I'm a pessimist *g* So I'm praying for at least one sad ME3 ending.

Oh, something else I wanted to say:
I was expecting the option to do something very cowardly that would mean the loss of many lives at the final battle. But it didn't really present itself, I think. Wynne said she disapproves of the romance because love makes people selfish. And that I might be faced with the decision to either sacrifice my love or sacrifice a lot of other people. Is Morrigan's DR supposed to be this scenario? Because that would be very disapponting, simply because we don't know what will happen. True, it's the selfish cowardly thing that possibly means great suffering for the world one day. But we don't know that. I would have liked a real selfish thing like having somebody else kill the Archdemon, pretending to be too far way to do it myself. So oops, I failed. Too bad. Better luck next time for some other Warden. Or something less dramatic. Like Alistair being in mortal danger at the same time as, say, a group of people in Denerim during the big battle. Or somebody else from your party. Sacrificing Wynne would have been a bit too cruel, I guess

IanPolaris wrote...

If you are in love with Alistair and you don't take the Dark Ritual, then Alistair will ALWAYS sacrifice himself for you with the Archdemon if he is in the party. The only way to prevent this is to leave Alistair at the gates (and get some priceless conversation).

-Polaris

Oh? So there IS a way he'll live?? I thought I read that not taking him with me will have him magically appear anyway for the final blow. I'll load that savegame and check out this priceless conversation!

[errant_knight]

ELE08 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

ELE08 wrote...

Wow, it's like I'm reading a post from myself December 2009. So nothing much to add there. Except there really is no happy ending with Alistair IMO. If you're in a relationship with him, the DR is just sickening no matter how you try to rationalize it. And him sacrificing himself is just heartwrenching and makes the epilogue very depressing and empty.
Which is why I only romance Zev now. And make hardened Alistair and Anora rule together. Pretty much everyone comes out of that one for the best.
And the thing with Alistair still thinking he's king even if he isn't is a bug. There are some mods to fix it if you're on PC.

See, Your feelings about the DR are mine about marrying Alistair to Anora, so milelage varies widely. He can either have an unpleasant time one night, or for the rest of his life.

That's true, and my perspective changed drastically from playing a human noble in love with Alistair and a Dalish Elf that wasn't.  It also made a difference to me whether or not I had befriended Morrigan.  My first (unspoiled) playthrough she had very low approval and I turned her down flat for the DR.  After playing through her complete friendship path I can see trusting her and accepting her offer.

Hardened Alistair that isn't in love with the warden I think could find happiness being king married to Anora.  Pretty much any other variation I see him being unhappy being made king (actually I can think of a few now, but they all involve the DR or no romance with the warden so nm.)

Oh, and my concern about the DR weren't for Alistair's feelings.  So that makes it a selfish decision I guess.  It's just the thought of sending someone you're absolutely in love with to sleep with someone else.  I can rationalize it as the best decision, but it still makes me sick.  Not something I personally want to experience in a game.

I guess I can see that. Thing is, I try hard only to base decisions on what my character knows, and my characters only know that Alistair has a one in three chance of dying if she can't convince him to do the ritual. Their concern is that they have to convince him to do something he really doesn't want to more than a fidelity issue (which I don't see this as, myself), but the fact that not doing it could end in his death makes it their best choice.

[Kappa Neko]

I'm an Xbox player, by the way. So no mods for me.

[ejoslin]

Wynne's comments about love being selfish have nothing to do with your actions. All romances get that -- Wynne feels it's her place to tell you how childish you're being, how your fling won't last, how selfish you are, etc., no matter who it is who adores your warden.

[Kappa Neko]

Too bad. I thought that comment might have been foreboding something when I first heard it.

[Gilsa]

Kappa Neko wrote...

 I'm hoping we'll be getting some good (romance) drama in ME3. I don't want another ME2 "suicide" mission with nobody dying! But please, I don't want Kaidan to die. I'd love to be able to choose somebody else to die in his place, though, including myself.

I've seen a lot of Kaidan fans be wary about him being another tragic Alistair, but I honestly don't think it'll go that way. They did such a great job with Liara's DLC and keeping her important that I can't see them not doing the same for Ashley/Kaidan in ME3. We got great conflict in ME2 and hopefully ME3 is the equivalent of hot make-up sex, lol. =D For what it's worth, I liked the "nobody die" option in ME2 because it validated my choices as a commander. I felt rewarded for paying attention to my squad and what they were doing. (I lost the ship crew though, oops.)

And yeah, it's a head-scratcher when no one else steps up to become a Grey Warden, but in the grand scheme of things, everything is limited by the writing. You are meant to only have one other companion that can die in your place if you decline the DR. Would be too easy to spare Loghain and have him be the convenient redcoat that can die while Alistair and the PC walk away. Hence giving Alistair a breaking point and removing him from the picture.

[Lawlipop]

I was wondering this myself! Where is the option of "kick Alistair in the nuts and charge the arch demon" !? O_o 

[errant_knight]

Kappa Neko wrote...

Too bad. I thought that comment might have been foreboding something when I first heard it.

I think it was meant to, absolutely. That isn't negated because the other LIs still generate the line. The DR is a selfish act that will keep the PC from dying, something that is more likely to be chosen if the character is in love, so it still applies. It may be the most applicable with Alistair, because both can die, but things don't go well for any of the companions who are in a romantic relationship if the PC choses not to do the DR, and the relationships are certainly over.

[rak72]

ELE08 wrote...

Wow, it's like I'm reading a post from myself December 2009. So nothing much to add there. Except there really is no happy ending with Alistair IMO. If you're in a relationship with him, the DR is just sickening no matter how you try to rationalize it. And him sacrificing himself is just heartwrenching and makes the epilogue very depressing and empty.
Which is why I only romance Zev now. And make hardened Alistair and Anora rule together. Pretty much everyone comes out of that one for the best.
And the thing with Alistair still thinking he's king even if he isn't is a bug. There are some mods to fix it if you're on PC.

Why marry him to Anora?  He might be able to find someone he truly loves if allowed to rule solo.  I also don't think the epilog is that much better if they are married - 6 of one, 1/2 doz of the other.  I'm also sure those two won't be able to produce an heir.

And yea, the dialog at the end is one big bug fest.

[errant_knight]

Lawlipop wrote...

I was wondering this myself! Where is the option of "kick Alistair in the nuts and charge the arch demon" !? O_o 

Gotta say, I think knocking him out like that is almost as mean as marrying him to Anora. Not only is he prevented from saving the woman he loves, something he considers to be the only possible choice, but she emasculates him in front of an entire army to do so. Then he gets to live with the failure for the rest of his life. Once again, the choice has been taken from him, and this is worse than being sent to the Chantry. Leaving him at the gates is bad, and takes his choice from him just as surely, but at least it's not deceptive.

[Sjofn]

No one seeming to give a crap about Alistair dying is what made that ending way too depressing for me to bear. I did it once, hated it so much I replayed the entire ending, leaving him at the gate so he couldn't do the NOBLE SACRIFICE crap, and died myself. And I've never let Alistair die that way since, even if I'm not romancing him (I just like him a lot all around).



My ladies that romance Alistair almost universally take the DR (if he dumps them after the Landsmeet she just throws herself at the archdemon, I am silly like that). It boils down to "yes this sucks, but this sucks far less than him dying, and that moron will do something idiotic if *I* try to die instead." For now, anyway, I am sure it will bite my various ladies in the butt down the road.

[Avilia]

rak72 wrote...

[snipped]

Why marry him to Anora?  He might be able to find someone he truly loves if allowed to rule solo.  I also don't think the epilog is that much better if they are married - 6 of one, 1/2 doz of the other.  I'm also sure those two won't be able to produce an heir.

And yea, the dialog at the end is one big bug fest.

I've seen some posts opining that none of the endings will produce an heir.  Grey Wardens have low fertility (if any) we're told.  Alistair married to the female PC definitely won't produce a child, Alistair/Anora is doubtful even if they try, Anora won't remarry, Alistair alone may find a suitable wife but again low fertility.

This may be the intention of the writers to simplify future games and give them freedom to do what they want with the ruler.  I dunno - that seems likely to me but YMMV and IMHO.

Modifié par Avilia, 19 janvier 2011 - 10:37 .

[Zjarcal]

errant_knight wrote...

Lawlipop wrote...

I was wondering this myself! Where is the option of "kick Alistair in the nuts and charge the arch demon" !? O_o 

Gotta say, I think knocking him out like that is almost as mean as marrying him to Anora.

But isn't it just as bad from him to not give his lover any options once up there? I mean sure, knocking him out to kill the AD yourself is bad, but I think it works the other way around too. I know many players were devastated by how he wouldn't allow any other choice.

Perhaps flipping a coin would be for the best. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Zjarcal wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Lawlipop wrote...

I was wondering this myself! Where is the option of "kick Alistair in the nuts and charge the arch demon" !? O_o 

Gotta say, I think knocking him out like that is almost as mean as marrying him to Anora.

But isn't it just as bad from him to not give his lover any options once up there? I mean sure, knocking him out to kill the AD yourself is bad, but I think it works the other way around too. I know many players were devastated by how he wouldn't allow any other choice.

Perhaps flipping a coin would be for the best. 

Alistair would pretty much ignore any coin toss he didn't win, so it'd be moot.

[errant_knight]

Zjarcal wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Lawlipop wrote...

I was wondering this myself! Where is the option of "kick Alistair in the nuts and charge the arch demon" !? O_o 

Gotta say, I think knocking him out like that is almost as mean as marrying him to Anora.

But isn't it just as bad from him to not give his lover any options once up there? I mean sure, knocking him out to kill the AD yourself is bad, but I think it works the other way around too. I know many players were devastated by how he wouldn't allow any other choice.

Perhaps flipping a coin would be for the best. 

This is true, and yeah, it would truly suck to have your lover insist on dying when you want to save them to every bit as much as they want to save you. But the player is the one with all the control here. They didn't have to go that route, so no, I don't think it's as bad. And it can't be denied that from a writing point of view, that was by far the most powerful situation to create. I'm also looking at it from the point of view of a guy who's never been allowed to make the big decisions for himself, and this one is the biggest. I'm not saying that I don't see why a player wouldn't want the option to knock him out, I'm just saying that it would be really devastating in more ways than just the warden's death.

[Miri1984]

I don't have any problem with doing the DR. I trust Morrigan. I reckon the OGB is going to rock. But the days of playing a Cousland are over for me and I won't romance Ali with anyone else. That said, my male wardens do the DR too, but they tend to be a bit more amoral than my goody Cousland queen .



The Alistair romance REALLY rips you to shreds first time around. I remember crying, raging, then going back to an earlier save (I didn't have enough coercion to convince him not to DUMP me the first time around!) and eventually working out how to make it a relatively happy ending. Still, none of the endings are really happy IMO.



Oh, my male Cousland didn't do the DR, but he was a right bastard and had Anora execute Alistair. THAT was heart wrenching too.

[Zjarcal]

@errant



Oh, I don't deny that it's an amazing ending and the best thing the writers could've done. Not to mention that it fits Alistair's character really well.



I suppose that given the life Alistair has lived, it would be far more devastating for him to be knocked out and have to live with that painful memory, than any anger the warden would endure for having to watch him die.



Quick question, since I've never romanced Alistair, how reluctant is he to do the DR when in a romance with the player?

[errant_knight]

Zjarcal wrote...

@errant

Oh, I don't deny that it's an amazing ending and the best thing the writers could've done. Not to mention that it fits Alistair's character really well.

I suppose that given the life Alistair has lived, it would be far more devastating for him to be knocked out and have to live with that painful memory, than any anger the warden would endure for having to watch him die.

Quick question, since I've never romanced Alistair, how reluctant is he to do the DR when in a romance with the player?

Well...he really doesn't want to do it, and he's very concerned about the possible consequences, but if you're honest with him about why, it's not hard. The first time I did it, without knowing any of the details or spoilers, it was fairly straight forward, just picking the honest answers.