108 réponses à ce sujet

[Auora]

For my EF Mage, I think this is the best possible ending.

It's tragic, yet romantic at the same time. My conscious refused to talk Alistair into doing something he might regret for the rest of his life (Dark Ritual). And, I refused to let him die. I would much rather sacrifice myself. 

It's very poetic that he chooses to say the ending of the warden's prayer at your death. 

Also, I think it fits really well considering you don't play as the warden in DAII.  I wish they had this mod for consoles.

[errant_knight]

The problem with this mod, while it gives people the possibility they want, is that it takes all the difficulty out of the choices. It keeps the warden from having to choose between something unpalatable and perhaps dangerous, and the person she loves or herself, when a romance. It avoids responsibility for choices and their consequences. And it takes away Alistair's ability to act decisively and with conviction about something he's driven to do, or alternately, choose another kind of sacrifice to save all the wardens (as far as he knows). This weakens both the writing and the character. In my opinion, of course. It might be easier to play, but it kind of guts the story, I think.

Modifié par errant_knight, 26 janvier 2011 - 09:39 .

[ejoslin]

errant_knight wrote...

The problem with this mod, while it gives people the possibility they want, is that it takes all the difficulty out of the choices. It keeps the warden from having to choose between something unpalatable and perhaps dangerous, and the person she loves or herself, when a romance. It avoids responsibility for choices and their consequences. And it takes away Alistair's ability to act decisively and with conviction about something he's driven to do, or alternately, choose another kind of sacrifice to save all the wardens (as far as he knows). This weakens both the writing and the character. In my opinion, of course. It might be easier to play, but it kind of guts the story, I think.

Another thing we actually agree on.  I think Alistair just doing the sacrifice is a stunning moment in the story.

Dragon Age is great in that there are some events just out of the player's control.  It makes for a more believable and more immersive story.

[tehprincessJ]

Also, if you're against having Alistair take the choice from you, you can always just leave him at the gate instead of bringing him along. No mod needed.

[Auora]

While I agree, I think that this mod shows how he would feel if you did make the choice and leave him at the gate. You are still making the sacrifice. Nothing is changed in that you still have to give up something.



The dialogue he gives at the gate just doesn't satisfy, imo.

[errant_knight]

ejoslin wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

The problem with this mod, while it gives people the possibility they want, is that it takes all the difficulty out of the choices. It keeps the warden from having to choose between something unpalatable and perhaps dangerous, and the person she loves or herself, when a romance. It avoids responsibility for choices and their consequences. And it takes away Alistair's ability to act decisively and with conviction about something he's driven to do, or alternately, choose another kind of sacrifice to save all the wardens (as far as he knows). This weakens both the writing and the character. In my opinion, of course. It might be easier to play, but it kind of guts the story, I think.

Another thing we actually agree on.  I think Alistair just doing the sacrifice is a stunning moment in the story.

Dragon Age is great in that there are some events just out of the player's control.  It makes for a more believable and more immersive story.

This is a really good way to put it. If you do the DR, what happens is out of your control. If you're in a romance with Alistair, this is out of your control. If you romance Leliana or Morrigan, you can do this without interference, but other events are out of your control, and pretty darn sad ones, too. To me, it makes the PC more human and the choices more important.

[Goosefish]

I heartily agree that the lack of control is what takes the story to epic levels. Same with any story. My first playthrough, though heartbreaking, is still to me the most notable because it's what just happened. Commandeering every little event certainly takes the drama and, dare I say, the soul from the story.

[tuppence95]

errant_knight wrote...

The problem with this mod, while it gives people the possibility they want, is that it takes all the difficulty out of the choices. It keeps the warden from having to choose between something unpalatable and perhaps dangerous, and the person she loves or herself, when a romance. It avoids responsibility for choices and their consequences. And it takes away Alistair's ability to act decisively and with conviction about something he's driven to do, or alternately, choose another kind of sacrifice to save all the wardens (as far as he knows). This weakens both the writing and the character. In my opinion, of course. It might be easier to play, but it kind of guts the story, I think.

Perhaps for you and some others, it does weaken the story.  But if you've ever used the mod, it still does a good job of presenting us with a powerful ending.  I actually think this ending is harder emotionally than Alistair dying.  You can see in him the despair that taking the decision away from him will cause and what having to go on without the warden will do to him.  I chose this option once, and it's not something I would do again.

[errant_knight]

tuppence95 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

The problem with this mod, while it gives people the possibility they want, is that it takes all the difficulty out of the choices. It keeps the warden from having to choose between something unpalatable and perhaps dangerous, and the person she loves or herself, when a romance. It avoids responsibility for choices and their consequences. And it takes away Alistair's ability to act decisively and with conviction about something he's driven to do, or alternately, choose another kind of sacrifice to save all the wardens (as far as he knows). This weakens both the writing and the character. In my opinion, of course. It might be easier to play, but it kind of guts the story, I think.

Perhaps for you and some others, it does weaken the story.  But if you've ever used the mod, it still does a good job of presenting us with a powerful ending.  I actually think this ending is harder emotionally than Alistair dying.  You can see in him the despair that taking the decision away from him will cause and what having to go on without the warden will do to him.  I chose this option once, and it's not something I would do again.

Oh, I agree with you that it would be completely devastating to Alistair, but that makes Alistair bear the brunt of decisions that are made, rather than the player, who's supposed to be the one making and living with the hard choices.

Modifié par errant_knight, 27 janvier 2011 - 05:08 .

[sevalaricgirl]

On my first playthrough, I didn't know what was going to happen and had Alistair do the DR because my wardens are all selfish and they believe and trust Morrigan up to that point and they want to live and want Alistair to live. My warden did not believe that Riordan could kill the archdemon on his own. In fact, even knowing the conclusion, in the 13 other playthroughs, Alistair did the DR. I just can't let him die and I can't let Loghain live. I'm now on my 15th playthrough (added some mods I wanted to try out) and Alistair will live because even watching it on youtube, I just couldn't take it and couldn't fathom why anyone would allow Alistair to die especially if they were romantically involved with him. Just me I guess.

[Auora]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

On my first playthrough, I didn't know what was going to happen and had Alistair do the DR because my wardens are all selfish and they believe and trust Morrigan up to that point and they want to live and want Alistair to live. My warden did not believe that Riordan could kill the archdemon on his own. In fact, even knowing the conclusion, in the 13 other playthroughs, Alistair did the DR. I just can't let him die and I can't let Loghain live. I'm now on my 15th playthrough (added some mods I wanted to try out) and Alistair will live because even watching it on youtube, I just couldn't take it and couldn't fathom why anyone would allow Alistair to die especially if they were romantically involved with him. Just me I guess.

Oh I agree, I would -never- let him die. But, I feel like if he is made king, he will at least feel a sense of duty toward his people to live. He would be able to move on like that I think.....and so it falls on me to make the sacrafice. I just feel the DR is the selfish way out, and potentionally dangerous. I know Morrigan says the child will not harm Ferelden or w/e......but who's to say that someone won't try to take the child and use it for their own evil purposes.

I will probably do the DR in some of my other play throughs......but I'm happy with the US more than any other ending.

[Goosefish]

I definitely think the DR is too risky, among other things. Not only do I not trust Morrigan, but as Auora said, someone else could get hold of the child. And also, that kid's gonna grow up. And also also, the kid is a person too. Not only is the DR selfish by providing an "easy" way out for the Wardens, but it's selfish in that because one person wasn't willing to die for the good of the nation, now another soul is given life only to be used for ends we don't know. What *is* Morrigan planning with that baby anyway?



I think this is just a situation where if one person (Alistair or the Warden or another warden) could bite the bullet and make the sacrifice, then it really would be for the good of many.

[Kappa Neko]

As much as it saddened me to have Alistair sacrifice himself, I, too, think having that choice taken from you makes the gaming experience much more emotional. I loved how I hated to see him die ^^



Alistair not becoming king doesn't feel anti-climatic to me, either. Surviving because of the DR does.

You get nice character development if you decide to make him king, that's true. And I guess you really are being nudged in that direction. But I'm perfectly happy with him staying a Grey Warden. It feels right, too.

[sevalaricgirl]

Auora wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

On my first playthrough, I didn't know what was going to happen and had Alistair do the DR because my wardens are all selfish and they believe and trust Morrigan up to that point and they want to live and want Alistair to live. My warden did not believe that Riordan could kill the archdemon on his own. In fact, even knowing the conclusion, in the 13 other playthroughs, Alistair did the DR. I just can't let him die and I can't let Loghain live. I'm now on my 15th playthrough (added some mods I wanted to try out) and Alistair will live because even watching it on youtube, I just couldn't take it and couldn't fathom why anyone would allow Alistair to die especially if they were romantically involved with him. Just me I guess.

Oh I agree, I would -never- let him die. But, I feel like if he is made king, he will at least feel a sense of duty toward his people to live. He would be able to move on like that I think.....and so it falls on me to make the sacrafice. I just feel the DR is the selfish way out, and potentionally dangerous. I know Morrigan says the child will not harm Ferelden or w/e......but who's to say that someone won't try to take the child and use it for their own evil purposes.

I will probably do the DR in some of my other play throughs......but I'm happy with the US more than any other ending.

I said my wardens are selfish and they are.  They don't really care if it is dangerous.  It is about them and because they make the final decision, the DR happens.  My wardens were thrust into becoming GWs.  They didn't want to.  They were conscripted.  They do what they have to do but they just don't care one whit about the god baby.  They aren't willing to give up their lives when they were forced into it.

[sevalaricgirl]

Goosefish wrote...

I definitely think the DR is too risky, among other things. Not only do I not trust Morrigan, but as Auora said, someone else could get hold of the child. And also, that kid's gonna grow up. And also also, the kid is a person too. Not only is the DR selfish by providing an "easy" way out for the Wardens, but it's selfish in that because one person wasn't willing to die for the good of the nation, now another soul is given life only to be used for ends we don't know. What *is* Morrigan planning with that baby anyway?

I think this is just a situation where if one person (Alistair or the Warden or another warden) could bite the bullet and make the sacrifice, then it really would be for the good of many.

But a conscripted warden isn't going to feel the same way.  I wouldn't if I was forced into it.  No way.  I'd do whatever it took to stay alive.  If it's a choice that's different, but for my wardens it isn't a choice.  If give the choice, they'd leave Fereldon to the darkspawn and leave the country.  They're not giving up their lives for the many.  No way.

[Kappa Neko]

sevalaricgirl wrote...

I said my wardens are selfish and they are.  They don't really care if it is dangerous.  It is about them and because they make the final decision, the DR happens.  My wardens were thrust into becoming GWs.  They didn't want to.  They were conscripted.  They do what they have to do but they just don't care one whit about the god baby.  They aren't willing to give up their lives when they were forced into it.

That's similar to how I'm playing my male Dalish elf at the moment. He didn't want to become a Grey Warden. He wanted to stay with the Dalish and fight for them. He's a nice kid but he's not willing to give his life for a cause he was forced into. He's got a thing going with Morrigan anyway.  And he likes Alistair well enough. So saving both their lives suits my elf.
I don't like the DR, but it feel less wrong with certain personality types. I like tragic endings, so any character in love will Alistair will probably not do the ritual^^

[sevalaricgirl]

See I see it differently. My wardens are in love with Alistair and they want to have a happily ever after with him. The DR is the only way to get it.

[Goosefish]

@ Sevalaricgirl -- I can see your POV, but to me your Wardens not caring about Ferelden or the Blight enough to sacrifice themselves is too static. My Warden (Aisling - my avatar) was at first perhaps a bit angry and noncomittal when she was forced to join the Grey Wardens, but she soon saw how everything was bigger than she was, and she began to see what her role and her potential might be. She grew, in other words, with the events that were unfolding around her.

Had she stayed angry and defiant at having been conscripted, there would be no change, no character growth and development. I believe dynamic characters make for a better story all day long.



The Warden being in love with Alistair and wanting to have a happy ending with him, at whatever cost, is also too self-serving for the character I was creating. Of course she would *want* to have the happily ever after, but personal wants were trumped by the more important events of the world. "Sucks, deal with it", you know?



But different types of characters will do different things, obviously.

[Auora]

Obviously so. However, I wonder what Alistair would have said about the DR if Morrigan had approached him first.

Would he say "Fine, I'll do it to save myself and the Warden" or would he say "No, it's just not right." Considering his morals, I believe he would choose the latter....especially considering the outcome (the child). Alistair had always put his duty before himself. I would assume this situation would be no different.

Modifié par Auora, 28 janvier 2011 - 02:42 .

[sevalaricgirl]

Goosefish wrote...

@ Sevalaricgirl -- I can see your POV, but to me your Wardens not caring about Ferelden or the Blight enough to sacrifice themselves is too static. My Warden (Aisling - my avatar) was at first perhaps a bit angry and noncomittal when she was forced to join the Grey Wardens, but she soon saw how everything was bigger than she was, and she began to see what her role and her potential might be. She grew, in other words, with the events that were unfolding around her.
Had she stayed angry and defiant at having been conscripted, there would be no change, no character growth and development. I believe dynamic characters make for a better story all day long.

The Warden being in love with Alistair and wanting to have a happy ending with him, at whatever cost, is also too self-serving for the character I was creating. Of course she would *want* to have the happily ever after, but personal wants were trumped by the more important events of the world. "Sucks, deal with it", you know?

But different types of characters will do different things, obviously.

 
Actually, it is my warden's personality. Why does she have to care about Fereldon?  She's merely doing her job.  She's Dalish, her people have already moved on.  I don't see defiance at the role she was thrust into as static.  She fights the darkspawn.  She is the muscle behind stopping the blight but she only stayed because she fell for Alistair and he stayed.  She asked him to leave but he wouldn't.  She saved the circle, saved Connor and Eamon, didn't defile the ashes but she did all this because she considered it a job she had to do.  She didn't choose the GWs and wouldn't have chosen it.  She's angry.  She fights the darkspawn because it's fun, but her goal is to go to Tevinter and find a cure for the taint that has cursed her.  I'm an author and I know about dynamic characters but we all play the game how we want to play it.  I enjoy playing the way I do, but don't expect others to.  I've played the game 15 times and I've never gotten bored with how I play my characters. 

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 28 janvier 2011 - 03:19 .

[sevalaricgirl]

Auora wrote...

Obviously so. However, I wonder what Alistair would have said about the DR if Morrigan had approached him first.

Would he say "Fine, I'll do it to save myself and the Warden" or would he say "No, it's just not right." Considering his morals, I believe he would choose the latter....especially considering the outcome (the child). Alistair had always put his duty before himself. I would assume this situation would be no different.

Ah but he can be convinced to do it and he knows it means that the woman he loves and he won't die.  If Bioware wanted Alistair or the warden to die, US, they would have never written it that the warden can convince Alistair to do the ritual to save them both.  So if Alistair puts his duty before himself then he really doesn't love the warden.  If Alistair is willing to die so easily then he doesn't really love the warden.  If he is betrayed by the warden at the landsmeet, we find out that he doesn't expect the warden to put her duty above his feelings so why should he put his duty above her feelings and he leaves Fereldon without participating and helping defeat the blight.  That is not someone who would put duty above love/emotions.

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 28 janvier 2011 - 03:22 .

[Goosefish]

I disagree that Alistair putting his duty before himself, or being willing to die so easily, means that he doesn't love the Warden. Those actions can be wholly unrelated to whether or not Alistair loves her. As for him leaving if betrayed at the Landsmeet...well, that's turned out to be an entire other discussion. They were talking that out over at the Gush thread, and it's an interesting topic. I tend to agree with those who said Alistair's decision in that scenario was one borne of emotional impulse and doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't not expect the Warden to put her duty above his feelings. That was a tremendous emotional blow and I doubt he'd be thinking rationally.

sevalaricgirl wrote...



Actually, it is my warden's personality. Why does she have to care about Fereldon? She's merely doing her job. She's Dalish, her people have already moved on. I don't see defiance at the role she was thrust into as static. She fights the darkspawn. She is the muscle behind stopping the blight but she only stayed because she fell for Alistair and he stayed. She asked him to leave but he wouldn't. She saved the circle, saved Connor and Eamon, didn't defile the ashes but she did all this because she considered it a job she had to do. She didn't choose the GWs and wouldn't have chosen it. She's angry. She fights the darkspawn because it's fun, but her goal is to go to Tevinter and find a cure for the taint that has cursed her. I'm an author and I know about dynamic characters but we all play the game how we want to play it. I enjoy playing the way I do, but don't expect others to. I've played the game 15 times and I've never gotten bored with how I play my characters.

It's static if she doesn't change and develop in some way i.e. her personality/character stands still; that is the very definition of static. If throughout the story she even developed into being even more angry and defiant, that would be dynamic. I didn't mean to imply all dynamic characters change for the good.



I also certainly didn't mean to imply that everyone must play the game in a dynamic way. By all means, play how you want and how you most enjoy it.

[LadyDamodred]

Auora wrote...

For my EF Mage, I think this is the best possible ending.

It's tragic, yet romantic at the same time. My conscious refused to talk Alistair into doing something he might regret for the rest of his life (Dark Ritual). And, I refused to let him die. I would much rather sacrifice myself. 

It's very poetic that he chooses to say the ending of the warden's prayer at your death. 

Also, I think it fits really well considering you don't play as the warden in DAII.  I wish they had this mod for consoles.

I appreciate and love that you used my screenshot, but I was so confused when I opened the page and went "...is that me?"

Also, since I just skimmed, if you get this mod, you don't have to bring Alistair and knock him out to get it.  If Alistair loves your Warden, he will appear on the roof of Fort Drakon if you leave him at the gate.  So...awesome scene without any worrying over story!

[Auora]

LadyDamodred wrote...

I appreciate and love that you used my screenshot, but I was so confused when I opened the page and went "...is that me?"

Also, since I just skimmed, if you get this mod, you don't have to bring Alistair and knock him out to get it.  If Alistair loves your Warden, he will appear on the roof of Fort Drakon if you leave him at the gate.  So...awesome scene without any worrying over story!

Then I humbly thank you for allowing me to use it as an example! I was searching online and this was the only one I easily found. It's a beautiful picture and definitely captures the atmosphere I am looking to replicate in my own ending. 

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Actually, it is my warden's personality. Why does she have to care about Fereldon?  She's merely doing her job.  She's Dalish, her people have already moved on.  I don't see defiance at the role she was thrust into as static.  She fights the darkspawn.  She is the muscle behind stopping the blight but she only stayed because she fell for Alistair and he stayed.  She asked him to leave but he wouldn't.  She saved the circle, saved Connor and Eamon, didn't defile the ashes but she did all this because she considered it a job she had to do.  She didn't choose the GWs and wouldn't have chosen it.  She's angry.  She fights the darkspawn because it's fun, but her goal is to go to Tevinter and find a cure for the taint that has cursed her.  I'm an author and I know about dynamic characters but we all play the game how we want to play it.  I enjoy playing the way I do, but don't expect others to.  I've played the game 15 times and I've never gotten bored with how I play my characters. 

I honestly couldn't believe that, theoretically given the choice, Alistair would want to be with someone like this. Even when you tell him, in the game, that you don't want to be a Warden, I believe he gives you -points. He finds honor in fighting for Fereldon and is proud to be a Grey Warden. It seems as if you should have fallen for Zeveran instead.....he seems like a better match for that type of character. 

Modifié par Auora, 29 janvier 2011 - 12:40 .

[sevalaricgirl]

[quote]Goosefish wrote...

I disagree that Alistair putting his duty before himself, or being willing to die so easily, means that he doesn't love the Warden. Those actions can be wholly unrelated to whether or not Alistair loves her. As for him leaving if betrayed at the Landsmeet...well, that's turned out to be an entire other discussion. They were talking that out over at the Gush thread, and it's an interesting topic. I tend to agree with those who said Alistair's decision in that scenario was one borne of emotional impulse and doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't not expect the Warden to put her duty above his feelings. That was a tremendous emotional blow and I doubt he'd be thinking rationally.


Which means he puts his emotions over duty which was my point and my character is dynamic.  She's angry and defiant but above all she loves Alistair.  It's her love for Alistair that keeps her going and wanting to bring an end to the blight so they could spend the rest of their days together.  She becomes close to all of her companions except Wynne and wants them all to be happy but she wants herself and Alistair to be happy too.  She doens't think that death is happy.