108 réponses à ce sujet

[Auora]

Modifié par Auora, 29 janvier 2011 - 12:44 .

[Estelindis]

Just thought I'd add my voice to the many that empathise with you, Kappa Neko. I got the same ending as you did, and I was absolutely devastated. Others' (non-)reactions to Alistair's death afterwards only rubbed salt in the wound. No other game moment has ever upset me as much.

Modifié par Estelindis, 29 janvier 2011 - 02:39 .

[Goosefish]

@ sevalaricgirl -- That is not dynamic in terms of character development. Sure she's moving forward in the story, but if her personality/ideals/dreams remain the same, then in terms of character development I would call that static. If her goals and feelings at the end of the game are basically the same as they were at the start, then how did she grow? What has she learned?



Of course death is not happy. Who in the world would think so, and would choose death over almost any other outcome with a big smile on their face?



Alistair acting on an emotional impulse doesn't mean he WILLINGLY puts emotion over duty. I bet if you asked him on any other day which was more important: emotion or duty? he'd say duty. But that's the whole point of reacting in an emotional situation; not thinking clearly and reverting to basically knee-jerk reactions because reason has waved bye-bye for the moment.



I wonder what your character loves about Alistair? Beyond a goofy sense of humor and good looks. His sense of justice and duty and the greater good and being a Grey Warden make up the bulk of his character. I have to agree with Auora and say I don't think that character and Alistair would have much going on in the true emotional relationship department. You said yourself that your Wardens were all selfish, which I think would be a big hitch in Alistair having any real deep feelings for them, as selfishness does not work to promote all that he is fighting for atm.

[Zjarcal]

Auora wrote...

sevalaricgirl wrote...

Actually, it is my warden's personality. Why does she have to care about Fereldon?  She's merely doing her job.  She's Dalish, her people have already moved on.  I don't see defiance at the role she was thrust into as static.  She fights the darkspawn.  She is the muscle behind stopping the blight but she only stayed because she fell for Alistair and he stayed.  She asked him to leave but he wouldn't.  She saved the circle, saved Connor and Eamon, didn't defile the ashes but she did all this because she considered it a job she had to do.  She didn't choose the GWs and wouldn't have chosen it.  She's angry.  She fights the darkspawn because it's fun, but her goal is to go to Tevinter and find a cure for the taint that has cursed her.  I'm an author and I know about dynamic characters but we all play the game how we want to play it.  I enjoy playing the way I do, but don't expect others to.  I've played the game 15 times and I've never gotten bored with how I play my characters. 

I honestly couldn't believe that, theoretically given the choice, Alistair would want to be with someone like this. Even when you tell him, in the game, that you don't want to be a Warden, I believe he gives you -points. He finds honor in fighting for Fereldon and is proud to be a Grey Warden. It seems as if you should have fallen for Zeveran instead.....he seems like a better match for that type of character. 

Why not? Who says her character has to fall for Zevran just because her character doesn't fit into what you believe is the proper romantic partner for Alistair? I fail to see how not wanting to be a warden would make it implausible for Alistair to fall for her. Sure, he disapproves when you tell him that you don't want to be warden, but it's not like he hates you for it. So long as you carry on fighting the Blight, he's more than content with you.

Do you really think that the two of them have to agree on everything for a romance to be plausible?

[Goosefish]

No, you're right, I don't think a romance is entirely unplausible. I just don't see Alistair as the kind of gent to put his feelings on the line for someone with selfish motives. Sure he could care for her, but would he sacrifice himself/risk doing the DR for her/make her queen? I'm not so sure.

It sounds like Sevalaricgirl's Wardens love Alistair on a pretty deep level, and I just don't think Alistair would love them back quite so much.  Or at least as much as she thinks he would.  By all game accounts, the Warden/Alistair romance is pretty intense; the endgame reports (if he doesn't break up with her when becomes King) all mention her as his "love", and judging by various reactions we get from Alistair throughout the game, i.e. not wanting to hit up the tent too soon in the relationship, he's the kind of dude to take things seriously. 

This is a silly debate, because it's all just a matter of opinion.  I don't really want to tell anyone that their romance is not possible, but for how I interpret the game, the story, and Alistair, it just doesn't seem plausible to me that the kind of Warden Sevalaricgirl described would be able to gain and maintain such a deep relationship with him.

Modifié par Goosefish, 29 janvier 2011 - 06:06 .

[Zjarcal]

Doesn't Alistair become a bit more selfish if he's hardened? I don't know, I really don't see that as a great impasse. Maybe if he's unhardened.

[Goosefish]

I've never hardened Alistair, but reading what other people have said about it it seems more that he just becomes, well, harder. Tougher. But again, I've never done it.

[Auora]

Zjarcal wrote...

Why not? Who says her character has to fall for Zevran just because her character doesn't fit into what you believe is the proper romantic partner for Alistair? I fail to see how not wanting to be a warden would make it implausible for Alistair to fall for her. Sure, he disapproves when you tell him that you don't want to be warden, but it's not like he hates you for it. So long as you carry on fighting the Blight, he's more than content with you.

Do you really think that the two of them have to agree on everything for a romance to be plausible?

I do not. However, I do believe that two people must usually have common morals and beliefs to be compatible. These ideals are what shape a person and determine the path you will ultimately follow in life. If the Warden is constantly putting down the position that Alistair holds with such esteem, then I feel it would not be only a "matter of opinion" so to speak. Being a Grey Warden is his life, and it is hard to imagine him tolerating being with someone who only felt it to be a nuisance.

 

Goosefish wrote...
This is a silly debate, because it's all just a matter of opinion.  I don't really want to tell anyone that their romance is not possible, but for how I interpret the game, the story, and Alistair, it just doesn't seem plausible to me that the kind of Warden Sevalaricgirl described would be able to gain and maintain such a deep relationship with him.

Agreed.

Modifié par Auora, 29 janvier 2011 - 06:16 .

[Zjarcal]

Goosefish wrote...

I've never hardened Alistair, but reading what other people have said about it it seems more that he just becomes, well, harder. Tougher. But again, I've never done it.

Tougher indeed, but he's also willing to put aside the whole "we can't continue our relationship because of my duty" thing if he becomes king and keeps you as mistress (provided you handle the conversation properly).

There's an example of him acting differently, regarding the whole duty thing, some would say more selfish, especially given that his exact line is:

"Damn them all, anyhow. If they want to make me king, then... then I'll be king. And I'll do exactly what I want to do."

EDIT: 

VO NOTE: "Screw it. I'll do what I want!"

Modifié par Zjarcal, 29 janvier 2011 - 06:25 .

[Zjarcal]

Goosefish wrote...
This is a silly debate, because it's all just a matter of opinion. 

That is true for every single debate on the forums.

[LadyDamodred]

There's selfish and then there's selfish....

For instance, my Wardens are selfish in that they always ask Alistair to do the DR because they want to live and be with the person they love, even though they know it might b a pretty terrible idea.  But for the most part, they're not "selfish b!tches."

When I'm rp'ing a character, it's a lot harder to romance Alistair on some characters, like my Dalish, who was very, very angry in the beginning.  She didn't get shems, didn't want to, and her talks with companions reflected that.  She was really low with people for awhile.  Without gifts, she never would have gotten a relationship off the ground.  And those gifts that she did use, she used sparingly because for me, using too many is cheating in a way.  I like growing the relationships mostly through conversation.

People can rp their characters however they wish, and while some types are undoubtedly a better fit that others, there's very little that I would call absolutely wrong.  As long as you really stick to rp, it's easy to see that.

And hardened Alistair does become more selfish in the way I described above--he's more willing to think about his own happiness over blind honor and duty.

[Goosefish]

Way too tired to continue coherently, but...

Zjarcal wrote...

Goosefish wrote...
This is a silly debate, because it's all just a matter of opinion. 

That is true for every single debate on the forums.

True dat.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

FWIW, toolset says Alistair's motivation changes from 'good' to 'glory' when he gets hardened.

Like LadyDemodred says, hardened Alistair looks out for himself more and aims to get what he wants. eg. A romanced and hardened King Alistair can be convinced to take the PC as a mistress. An unhardened King Alistair won't take a mistress, saying it would be hurtful/unfair to his future wife and the PC.

His principles change, and whether he's better off one way or the other is subjective.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 29 janvier 2011 - 07:20 .

[Zjarcal]

LadyDamodred wrote...
I like growing the relationships mostly through conversation.

A bit off topic, but totally agree. I avoid any gifts that aren't plot gifts, and I only give those once the companions have mentioned them in conversations. It's much more satisfying to build the approval on conversations and actions.

[ejoslin]

Just to toss this out there -- while different people have opinions on who Alistair would fall in love with and who would be a good match... he was written to fall in love with a female warden whom he has high approval with, has done his personal quest, and has an active romance.

The "type" of warden that Alistair has the most problem with is the type who disses Duncan. And even THAT is not insurmountable. He also doesn't like it if you talk disrespectfully to him (as is true of most people). There's an action that will cause him a huge approval drop (aside from romance related ones that reset his approval), but other than that, when he disapproves of a warden's actions, it's very minor. He is not hung up on what a warden does.

It's how all the romances are written. Your warden is so beautiful and so charasmatic and perhaps such a smooth speaker that unless you actively try, if you open a romance, the companion is going to eventually fall in love.

Alistair WILL put aside being a gray warden under many circumstances, be it marriage or be it being ticked off at the warden (or both). Alistair has an ideal of what the Gray wardens are, but that doesn't mean that that is an insurmountable barrier to him falling in love.

saying if a warden isn't a particular type, they should instead fall in love with Zevran is silly. None of these characters are set in stone -- we all bring our own interpretation to them. All the characters have their inconsistencies and their flaws.

Bottom line, Alistair is not the paladin out of a romance novel. He's an idealistic young man who will fall in love quickly, passionately, without considering the future. His romance is well written, potentially tragic, and is a sweet story of first love in a desperate time.

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 janvier 2011 - 03:01 .

[M-Taylor]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

FWIW, toolset says Alistair's motivation changes from 'good' to 'glory' when he gets hardened.

Like LadyDemodred says, hardened Alistair looks out for himself more and aims to get what he wants. eg. A romanced and hardened King Alistair can be convinced to take the PC as a mistress. An unhardened King Alistair won't take a mistress, saying it would be hurtful/unfair to his future wife and the PC.

His principles change, and whether he's better off one way or the other is subjective.

>.>..

that kinda upset me. How dare the tosser die for glory. I thought he did it 'cause he loved mah pixels! /emo

[LadyDamodred]

lol, he does do it because he loves yer pixels. That's why you can't override him. Everyone else can convince him to stay except the woman he loves.

[sevalaricgirl]

Goosefish wrote...

No, you're right, I don't think a romance is entirely unplausible. I just don't see Alistair as the kind of gent to put his feelings on the line for someone with selfish motives. Sure he could care for her, but would he sacrifice himself/risk doing the DR for her/make her queen? I'm not so sure.

It sounds like Sevalaricgirl's Wardens love Alistair on a pretty deep level, and I just don't think Alistair would love them back quite so much.  Or at least as much as she thinks he would.  By all game accounts, the Warden/Alistair romance is pretty intense; the endgame reports (if he doesn't break up with her when becomes King) all mention her as his "love", and judging by various reactions we get from Alistair throughout the game, i.e. not wanting to hit up the tent too soon in the relationship, he's the kind of dude to take things seriously. 

This is a silly debate, because it's all just a matter of opinion.  I don't really want to tell anyone that their romance is not possible, but for how I interpret the game, the story, and Alistair, it just doesn't seem plausible to me that the kind of Warden Sevalaricgirl described would be able to gain and maintain such a deep relationship with him.

Really, my hubby and I are completely opposite and we've been married for 22 yrs so I guess that doesn't always seem to fit does it.  I'm a tough out there kind of NY girl and he's a sensitive, very much like Alistair, kind of guy.  In fact I tease him that he could be Alistair.  He's loving, sweet, good, treats everyone well, goes to church every sunday.  I am just the opposite and don't go to church at all.  We love each other deeply and appreciate each other for our differences.  So it seems that Alistair can love someone who's a NY kind of warden.  I write erotic novels and my hubby is a member of the Mormon church.  It's not implausible for someone to fall in love with someone completely different, it's probable and those that don't think so are idealistic.  There is truth to opposites attrack.

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 29 janvier 2011 - 03:30 .

[LadyDamodred]

I think it's more possible, than probable. And you might be one of those exceptions that proves the rule. I've seen far more success in relationships where the people share at least something, than where they share nothing. I'm assuming that you guys must have something in common, because being complete and total opposites seems like it would be hard to make work.



What I was talking about with Alistair seems to hold true in real life. Yes, it's possible for wildly different people to fall in love, it just takes a whole lot more effort. My Dalish has to struggle for a long, long time before anything happens where as my Cousland and Alistair are an almost perfect match.

[sevalaricgirl]

LadyDamodred wrote...

I think it's more possible, than probable. And you might be one of those exceptions that proves the rule. I've seen far more success in relationships where the people share at least something, than where they share nothing. I'm assuming that you guys must have something in common, because being complete and total opposites seems like it would be hard to make work.

What I was talking about with Alistair seems to hold true in real life. Yes, it's possible for wildly different people to fall in love, it just takes a whole lot more effort. My Dalish has to struggle for a long, long time before anything happens where as my Cousland and Alistair are an almost perfect match.

Everyone I know fits under the opposites attrack rule.  We have things in common, but I never said that Alistair and my warden didn't have anything in common.  They both fight for Fereldon.  She does it because she enjoys killing darkspawn and he does it because he's a GW.  She cares more about her companions than he does which includes him.  She's just hardened and she makes him hardened because in the real world to kill you have to be hardened.  Who can think otherwise.  Who else would take lives.  The unhardened Alistair would never be able to do what he does without a strong warden leading him and that includes Duncan.  My last warden stayed his mistress and he left with her at the end of Awakening but I play the same way every time.  This is a fantasy game in the end my wardens all end up with Alistair.  They may have different motivations but they end up with the same conclusions, at least with hardened Alistair.  When Alistair askes the Dalish warden to spend the night with him he says that it is because she is different that he wants to and I'm pretty sure that Fiona is his mother so he is part elf.

Modifié par sevalaricgirl, 29 janvier 2011 - 03:45 .

[ejoslin]

LadyDamodred wrote...

I think it's more possible, than probable. And you might be one of those exceptions that proves the rule. I've seen far more success in relationships where the people share at least something, than where they share nothing. I'm assuming that you guys must have something in common, because being complete and total opposites seems like it would be hard to make work.

What I was talking about with Alistair seems to hold true in real life. Yes, it's possible for wildly different people to fall in love, it just takes a whole lot more effort. My Dalish has to struggle for a long, long time before anything happens where as my Cousland and Alistair are an almost perfect match.

I disagree with this.  I'm my husband's complete opposite on all levels.  We had no problems falling in love, started living together almost immediately, and were married within a year of our starting to date. 19 years later, it's still working.  Where the adjustment happened was a few years into our marriage, and also after we had children.  The falling in love? Easy.  The staying in love, like all couples, a bit more work.

[LadyDamodred]

sevalaricgirl wrote...
Everyone I know fits under the opposites attrack rule.

Wow.  That's actually really odd.  I know a few people like that, and I don't see long-term success in their future.  Even with things like friends, like I'd hope any couple is, it seems to work better when the people aren't complete opposites.

sevalaricgirl wrote...
We have things in common, but I never said that Alistair and my warden didn't have anything in common.  They both fight for Fereldon.  She does it because she enjoys killing darkspawn and he does it because he's a GW.  She cares more about her companions than he does which includes him.

I wouldn't call that fighting "for Ferelden" then.  You're both fighting the Blight, but for different reasons.  Alistair is unwilling to abandon Ferelden out of a sense of patriotism.  He flat out refuses to do it.  My Wardens fight the Blight for different reasons, but again, the only one who truly does it out of a sense of patriotism are my Couslands.  All other Wardens have other dominating factors.

sevalaricgirl wrote...
She's just hardened and she makes him hardened because in the real world to kill you have to be hardened.  Who can think otherwise.  Who else would take lives.  The unhardened Alistair would never be able to do what he does without a strong warden leading him and that includes Duncan.

I think otherwise.  You can do your duty, be a soldier and a fighter, and kill lots of people without having a hardened personality.  The hardened personality affects his non-fighting life and has nothing to do with his ability to kill things and deal with battle.

sevalaricgirl wrote...
My last warden stayed his mistress and he left with her at the end of Awakening but I play the same way every time.  This is a fantasy game in the end my wardens all end up with Alistair.  They may have different motivations but they end up with the same conclusions, at least with hardened Alistair.

I play similarly each time, and most of my Wardens end up with Alistair, but they do all have a very different feel.  Whether Alistair is hardened or unhardened is generally irrelevant, except in the case of kingship.

sevalaricgirl wrote...
When Alistair askes the Dalish warden to spend the night with him he says that it is because she is different that he wants to and I'm pretty sure that Fiona is his mother so he is part elf.

I also think Fiona is his mother, but it has no bearing on the game as we don't know that.  And if that's true, it's true for all Wardens, so it's not really a factor, especially since he's completely human as the offspring between all humans and elves is.  He has elven heritage, yes, but he's not a half-elf or anything.

[Goosefish]

@ ejoslin & sevalaricgirl --

You and your spouses are truly, completely, 100% opposites? You share no commonalities on anything?

Ideals, moral compass, gender roles, spending habits, how many kids you want to have, favorite color, favorite vacation spots, whether to shop at Ikea or not, where you see yourself in 10 years? Nothing?

I can't really argue against your love for each other being enough to make your marriage work, because it obviously is if you're still married. But marrying someone who is your complete opposite just doesn't make any kind of sense to me. Obviously no two people are ever exactly alike - my husband and I have our differences, like anyone - but there had to be at least some kind of percentage we agreed on, or we never would have gotten married. I guess that's just beyond my understanding.

Modifié par Goosefish, 29 janvier 2011 - 04:10 .

[LadyDamodred]

ejoslin wrote...

LadyDamodred wrote...

I think it's more possible, than probable. And you might be one of those exceptions that proves the rule. I've seen far more success in relationships where the people share at least something, than where they share nothing. I'm assuming that you guys must have something in common, because being complete and total opposites seems like it would be hard to make work.

What I was talking about with Alistair seems to hold true in real life. Yes, it's possible for wildly different people to fall in love, it just takes a whole lot more effort. My Dalish has to struggle for a long, long time before anything happens where as my Cousland and Alistair are an almost perfect match.

I disagree with this.  I'm my husband's complete opposite on all levels.  We had no problems falling in love, started living together almost immediately, and were married within a year of our starting to date. 19 years later, it's still working.  Where the adjustment happened was a few years into our marriage, and also after we had children.  The falling in love? Easy.  The staying in love, like all couples, a bit more work.

*nods*  Fair enough.  I can see where the trouble would come a little further down the road.  Clumsy wording on my part perhaps.  But, completely opposite on all levels?  Like, all?  I don't know that I've ever encountered that and find myself baffled.

[ejoslin]

Goosefish wrote...

You are truly, completely, 100% opposites? You share no commonalities on anything?

Ideals, moral compass, gender roles, spending habits, how many kids you want to have, favorite color, favorite vacation spots, whether to shop at Ikea or not, where you see yourself in 10 years? Nothing?

I can't really argue against your love for each other being enough to make your marriage work, because it obviously is if you're still married. But marrying someone who is your complete opposite just doesn't make any kind of sense to me. Obviously no two people are ever exactly alike - my husband and I have our differences, like anyone - but there had to be at least some kind of percentage we agreed on, or we never would have gotten married. I guess that's just beyond my understanding.

I'm quiet, introverted, moody, slobby, focused, and very much a nerdy woman.  My husband is extroverted, friendly, warm, neat, very much a leader, able to juggle tasks like you wouldn't believe, and nothing gets to him.  I hate TV.  He watches an hour or so a night.  He listens to NPR.  I listen to my MP3 player.

while we have some common ground in music (both of us love classical), i'm more into black metal, he's into 70s rock.  I read books, he reads news magazines.  He is a professional and has a very interesting and challenging career, I have some technical training but at this point would probably qualify for a job at McDonalds.

since no two people are complete and total opposites, of course we have some things in common.  But really, it's our differences that keep things interesting.  

However, no one was talking about the warden and Alistair being complete opposites either. 

And it's not a matter of "tru luv keeps us together <3".  After you've been with someone a long time, it changes.  but you can have someone who is a good companion, someone who makes you laugh, someone you can actually talk to, this is a lot.  Throw in physical attraction, and it can't be beat. it matters a lot more than following the same religion, liking the same movies, voting for the same political candidates, whatever.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 29 janvier 2011 - 05:18 .