464 réponses à ce sujet

[standardpack]

SandyWB wrote...

duckphone07 wrote...

I read it all.  I thought it was interesting.  A good post in my book.

Thank you.

Does it matter how long it took me? I did a whole lot of things in between writing, so I don't really know. Either way, isn't it better to write a lengthy post where you actually explain yourself, instead of just putting down a single paragraph where you state your opinion without any logical explanation whatsoever? In my experience, you usually get a better dialogue over the Internet if you explain your view in dept rather than spitting out short post. Quality over quantity, right?

Your post has the benefit of both Quiality AND quantity!

[SandyWB]

errant_knight wrote...

Yeah, I read it and thought it was a well thought out post. I agreed with some of it and disagreed with other parts, but it was all well articulated. I think you're kind of missing why many of us don't want a dialogue wheel, though, Sandy. It's not about understanding the results. I think that's an issue that comes out of Mass Effect issues, no DA:O, from what I understand. The issue of many in moving from an unvoiced protagonist to a dialogue wheel is losing the feel of a real conversation where you are picking your own words and roleplaying the intent behind them and making it more of a 'minigame' with interface between you and your words.

Ah, that makes more sense then. I never did see much difference in the conversation wheel from Mass Effect and the numbered dialogue options from Baldur's Gate/Dragon Age, but maybe that's just me. You still get to roleplay why you say those things, and you get to say the things that you pick. The preset answers/statements in Dragon Age are equally not really "your own", just like in Mass Effect, but I can see how having a silent main character would help some people get into their own protagonist better. I'm lucky, since male Hawke's voice actor sounds a whole lot like what I had wanted my main character to sound like, but I can see how others wouldn't be as fortunate.

[RagingCyclone]

SandyWB..I thought your post was well written and very much worth the read. Like errant I agree with parts and disagree with others. But I respect your views in that post. My personal reason for not liking the dialogue wheel/voiced protagonist as adverse to the former style in DAO is that the warden was my character. I could RP the internal dialogue and voice sound in my head while I played. The character was therefore, for me, more immersive and became more a part of a character I created and could relate to more. With the dialogue wheel and voice that is taken away. I like the ME games, but I could never get into the Shephard character because he was just that, the Shephard character. But in DAO the warden was my character. I can imagine his thoughts and sound of his voice. The tone and pitch, and inflection that helped me to immerse myself into the character. DA2 changes that into now it's the Hawke character's story much like ME with Shephard. That immersiveness is gone, and so too is the connection to the story. Now instead of being a part of the story and integral at that like in DAO, I am just along for the ride in Hawke's story in DA2.

Modifié par RagingCyclone, 20 janvier 2011 - 07:47 .

[thehistorysage]

SandyWB wrote...

duckphone07 wrote...

I read it all.  I thought it was interesting.  A good post in my book.

Thank you.

Does it matter how long it took me? I did a whole lot of things in between writing, so I don't really know. Either way, isn't it better to write a lengthy post where you actually explain yourself, instead of just putting down a single paragraph where you state your opinion without any logical explanation whatsoever? In my experience, you usually get a better dialogue over the Internet if you explain your view in dept rather than spitting out short post. Quality over quantity, right?

I read it too, and you made some very, very good points. People continue to throw in outdated info like "They only have one outfit." When clearly in the videos and even from the lips of the devs themselves it has been put to rest. They all have more than one outfit/armour. If people were more inclined to read, instead of spout off about something they know next to nothing about then alot of the fear and hate would vanish.

[thehistorysage]

RagingCyclone wrote...

SandyWB..I thought you post was well written and very much worth the read. Like errant I agree with parts and disagree with others. But I respect your views in that post. My personal reason for not liking the dialogue wheel/voiced protagonist as adverse to the former style in DAO is that the warden was my character. I could RP the internal dialogue and voice sound in my head while I played. The character was therefore, for me, more immersive and became more a part of a character I created and could relate to more. With the dialogue wheel and voice that is taken away. I like the ME games, but I could never get into the Shephard character because he was just that, the Shephard character. But in DAO the warden was my character. I can imagine his thoughts and sound of his voice. The tone and pitch, and inflection that helped me to immerse myself into the character. DA2 changes that into now it's the Hawke character's story much like ME with Shephard. That immersiveness is gone, and so too is the connection to the story. Now instead of being a part of the story and integral at that like in DAO, I am just along for the ride in Hawke's story in DA2.

This is not quite the case. All of the Wardens were voiced, they just only spoke in combat. To me it was far more jarring to hear the voice I imagined during dialog and a separate voice during combat. I would far rather a fully-voiced protagonist, than a half-voiced protagonist. That vacant look in the Warden's eyes as he stood mute in the company of his fellows, except when he was killing darkspawn, was one of my least favourite "features" of DAO.

[errant_knight]

SandyWB wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Yeah, I read it and thought it was a well thought out post. I agreed with some of it and disagreed with other parts, but it was all well articulated. I think you're kind of missing why many of us don't want a dialogue wheel, though, Sandy. It's not about understanding the results. I think that's an issue that comes out of Mass Effect issues, no DA:O, from what I understand. The issue of many in moving from an unvoiced protagonist to a dialogue wheel is losing the feel of a real conversation where you are picking your own words and roleplaying the intent behind them and making it more of a 'minigame' with interface between you and your words.

Ah, that makes more sense then. I never did see much difference in the conversation wheel from Mass Effect and the numbered dialogue options from Baldur's Gate/Dragon Age, but maybe that's just me. You still get to roleplay why you say those things, and you get to say the things that you pick. The preset answers/statements in Dragon Age are equally not really "your own", just like in Mass Effect, but I can see how having a silent main character would help some people get into their own protagonist better. I'm lucky, since male Hawke's voice actor sounds a whole lot like what I had wanted my main character to sound like, but I can see how others wouldn't be as fortunate.

Actually, I'm very pleased with Hawke's voice actor. It's still not the same as creating my own 'voice', but it's not so different from what I imagine that it's offputting. I still have an issue with trying to roleplay a character who doesn't know their own words until they come out of their mouth, though. Not because I think they'll be something different than what is indicated, but rather becaue it's just distancing not to be...how to put this.... Aware of one's own thoughts?

[errant_knight]

thehistorysage wrote...

SandyWB wrote...

duckphone07 wrote...

I read it all.  I thought it was interesting.  A good post in my book.

Thank you.

Does it matter how long it took me? I did a whole lot of things in between writing, so I don't really know. Either way, isn't it better to write a lengthy post where you actually explain yourself, instead of just putting down a single paragraph where you state your opinion without any logical explanation whatsoever? In my experience, you usually get a better dialogue over the Internet if you explain your view in dept rather than spitting out short post. Quality over quantity, right?

I read it too, and you made some very, very good points. People continue to throw in outdated info like "They only have one outfit." When clearly in the videos and even from the lips of the devs themselves it has been put to rest. They all have more than one outfit/armour. If people were more inclined to read, instead of spout off about something they know next to nothing about then alot of the fear and hate would vanish.

Please don't up the ante by calling it 'fear and hate.' I don't fear or hate anything. I just don't like things. That level of angst is way over the top for all but a very few.

The one outfit thing does seem to be outdated, but the fact remains that we no longer have a full inventory to control, a part of gameplay I enjoyed, and can't use armor, clothing, etc. as part of our roleplay anymore. Also something I enjoyed.

[RagingCyclone]

thehistorysage wrote...

RagingCyclone wrote...

SandyWB..I thought you post was well written and very much worth the read. Like errant I agree with parts and disagree with others. But I respect your views in that post. My personal reason for not liking the dialogue wheel/voiced protagonist as adverse to the former style in DAO is that the warden was my character. I could RP the internal dialogue and voice sound in my head while I played. The character was therefore, for me, more immersive and became more a part of a character I created and could relate to more. With the dialogue wheel and voice that is taken away. I like the ME games, but I could never get into the Shephard character because he was just that, the Shephard character. But in DAO the warden was my character. I can imagine his thoughts and sound of his voice. The tone and pitch, and inflection that helped me to immerse myself into the character. DA2 changes that into now it's the Hawke character's story much like ME with Shephard. That immersiveness is gone, and so too is the connection to the story. Now instead of being a part of the story and integral at that like in DAO, I am just along for the ride in Hawke's story in DA2.

This is not quite the case. All of the Wardens were voiced, they just only spoke in combat. To me it was far more jarring to hear the voice I imagined during dialog and a separate voice during combat. I would far rather a fully-voiced protagonist, than a half-voiced protagonist. That vacant look in the Warden's eyes as he stood mute in the company of his fellows, except when he was killing darkspawn, was one of my least favourite "features" of DAO.

While this is true, it also was a choice in what type of voice to hear in combat. But this also shows how some people play their characters differently. You have a different way to play than I do. Niether is better than the other, but does show why some of us are disliking the lack of option to make that choice in how we play the character, which is what the OP was asking for.

[Deadmac]

Voiced player characters take the role playing out of role playing games. Since the whole idea behind role playing is that 'you' are in control, hearing another person's voice in place of your inner voice separates 'you' from the game. As a result of being seperated from the character, you are no longer playing a specific role in the story. Since the voice you are hearing, due to your dialgue selection, is not your own, the character you are moving on the board is 'not you'.

You are no longer role playing.

Added...
When you sit down to play a table-top rpg, the players are in complete control of their characters. If at any moment they are not in control, the game that is being played is no longer a role playing game.

Modifié par Deadmac, 20 janvier 2011 - 08:18 .

[AlanC9]

standardpack wrote...

So if I said "I prefer that Bioware fixes  all the bugs in DAO-DAA before they release DA2", would that be an appropriate complaint?

Appropriate, but you'd be kidding yourself.  Bio never fixes all their bugs. 

[JigPig]

AlanC9 wrote...

standardpack wrote...

So if I said "I prefer that Bioware fixes  all the bugs in DAO-DAA before they release DA2", would that be an appropriate complaint?

Appropriate, but you'd be kidding yourself.  Bio never fixes all their bugs. 

You are now aware that there is no game in existance, bar Pong, that has an absence of bugs, or glitches.

[Amioran]

Cobrawar wrote...
why change the formula when the formula was perfectly fine to begin with.

Easy answer: because without the change you hate so much the formula you love so much will die, maybe even faster than with the change(s) you hate, and in a permanent way.

Dying in a stagnant way it's the worser thing you can have. There will no be redemption in the future, anymore. It has happened with many genres in the past, in all fields and with all mediums. There's no turning back to this type death, usually never.

Instead when a thing dies (not said it does, but it can happen) for a change then it will be cicled anew, as a change for the changed. Again, it has always happened so in the past and it will always happen.

Nature never lies.

Modifié par Amioran, 20 janvier 2011 - 08:26 .

[Beerfish]

JigPig wrote...


You are now aware that there is no game in existance, bar Pong, that has an absence of bugs, or glitches.

Nonsense I remember once I heard a 'glop' when I should have heard a 'plop' whilst playing pong.

[TMZuk]

JigPig wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

standardpack wrote...

So if I said "I prefer that Bioware fixes  all the bugs in DAO-DAA before they release DA2", would that be an appropriate complaint?

Appropriate, but you'd be kidding yourself.  Bio never fixes all their bugs. 

You are now aware that there is no game in existance, bar Pong, that has an absence of bugs, or glitches.

There is bugs, and there is glitches, and then there's CTD's every halfhour, quests that cannot be taken, item's that mysteriosly vanishes, and a broken promise for two years of content and support.

Modifié par TMZuk, 20 janvier 2011 - 08:23 .

[JigPig]

TMZuk wrote...

JigPig wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

standardpack wrote...

So if I said "I prefer that Bioware fixes  all the bugs in DAO-DAA before they release DA2", would that be an appropriate complaint?

Appropriate, but you'd be kidding yourself.  Bio never fixes all their bugs. 

You are now aware that there is no game in existance, bar Pong, that has an absence of bugs, or glitches.

There is bugs, and there is glitches, and then there's CTD's every halfhour, quests that cannot be taken, item's that mysteriosly vanishes, and a broken promise for two years of content and support.

Welcome to the world of gaming, may I take your coat?

It's an industry standard now, get used to it.

[TMZuk]

JigPig wrote...

TMZuk wrote...

JigPig wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

standardpack wrote...

So if I said "I prefer that Bioware fixes  all the bugs in DAO-DAA before they release DA2", would that be an appropriate complaint?

Appropriate, but you'd be kidding yourself.  Bio never fixes all their bugs. 

You are now aware that there is no game in existance, bar Pong, that has an absence of bugs, or glitches.

There is bugs, and there is glitches, and then there's CTD's every halfhour, quests that cannot be taken, item's that mysteriosly vanishes, and a broken promise for two years of content and support.

Welcome to the world of gaming, may I take your coat?

It's an industry standard now, get used to it.

Sorry, been here a while. But am considering leaving at least this company alone, because I have rarely come across so blatant an unfulfilled promise.

[eyesofastorm]

JigPig wrote...

TMZuk wrote...

JigPig wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

standardpack wrote...

So if I said "I prefer that Bioware fixes  all the bugs in DAO-DAA before they release DA2", would that be an appropriate complaint?

Appropriate, but you'd be kidding yourself.  Bio never fixes all their bugs. 

You are now aware that there is no game in existance, bar Pong, that has an absence of bugs, or glitches.

There is bugs, and there is glitches, and then there's CTD's every halfhour, quests that cannot be taken, item's that mysteriosly vanishes, and a broken promise for two years of content and support.

Welcome to the world of gaming, may I take your coat?

It's an industry standard now, get used to it.

But you are a consumer.  You are as responsible for setting the standard as the producer.  As in all things in an economy, two sides meet somewhere in the middle.  When you take a stance like this, you are saying, "Yes sir, may I have another."... and they will give you another and another and another into infinity.  I think the only reason you are taking this stance is because you have not been on the receiving end of a bad experience.  That is both short sighted and irresponsible and fully supports my theory that gamers are the dumbest consumers in the history of the world.  

[JigPig]

TMZuk wrote...

JigPig wrote...

TMZuk wrote...

JigPig wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

standardpack wrote...

So if I said "I prefer that Bioware fixes  all the bugs in DAO-DAA before they release DA2", would that be an appropriate complaint?

Appropriate, but you'd be kidding yourself.  Bio never fixes all their bugs. 

You are now aware that there is no game in existance, bar Pong, that has an absence of bugs, or glitches.

There is bugs, and there is glitches, and then there's CTD's every halfhour, quests that cannot be taken, item's that mysteriosly vanishes, and a broken promise for two years of content and support.

Welcome to the world of gaming, may I take your coat?

It's an industry standard now, get used to it.

Sorry, been here a while. But am considering leaving at least this company alone, because I have rarely come across so blatant an unfulfilled promise.

Ironic considering this is one of the better ones.
Try Infinity Ward,  Naughty Dog, Blizzard, or Valve. *shudders*

[addiction21]

Deadmac wrote...

Voiced player characters take the role playing out of role playing games. Since the whole idea behind role playing is that 'you' are in control, hearing another person's voice in place of your inner voice separates 'you' from the game. As a result of being seperated from the character, you are no longer playing a specific role in the story. Since the voice you are hearing, due to your dialgue selection, is not your own, the character you are moving on the board is 'not you'.

You are no longer role playing.

Added...
When you sit down to play a table-top rpg, the players are in complete control of their characters. If at any moment they are not in control, the game that is being played is no longer a role playing game.

Maybe you should write up a nice long post on what the proper way is to "roleplay" and post it in the off-topic section so the rest of us stop doing it wrong...

Modifié par addiction21, 20 janvier 2011 - 08:42 .

[Wyndham711]

I've definitely noticed this tendency as well. Comparing how much the general gaming media and community was hyped for ME2, the general reaction for DA2 has been almost hostile. And this has been pretty universal in my experience, not just some vocal minority on some specific sites. In fact, I haven't yet visited a site which didn't in a number of cases have a distinct negative undertone in their reporting/discussion on DA2. Or at the very least a clear lack of enthusiasm.

Clearly the direction BioWare took with the game has been extremely controversial among the public and the gaming media. But the upside here is of course that now BioWare has really been set the stage for a surprise comeback, since people's expectations seem to be generally so low.

[Nissa_Red]

How about instead some people feel resentful to DA2 because the current game still has unforgivable bugs (ever play DA:O + DA:Awakening ?) that will probably will never be fixed (not unlike Mass Effect 2's bugs) ?

How about some of these people perceive the sequel as less content (understand attractive, tasteful content), no toolset, less characters in the core game (if one doesn't want to pre-order), instead as more and more content carried over to DLCs ?

How about some of these people have a hard time justifying a 10€/$ price increase in such conditions ?

Is everyone out there prophet, to quote your own words, for wishing Bioware would return to be a company that has cared about customer support ever since BG, and up to NWN, that has delivered fine (bug-free, content rich) games that I still enjoy to replay years after ?

Why should the concern of some people be downplayed because they don't associate the label "Bioware" with elusive "awesome button" (DA2) or multi-player shooter (ME3) concepts that clearly weren't your turf not so long ago ?

Should I really go on ?

I do not hate DA2, or any other videogame for that matter. I just feel scammed at the moment, and extremely dubious to the future intentions of your company, because of aformentionned reasons.

No amount of smilies at the end of your message will change that.

David Gaider wrote...

It's safer for some people to complain. Then you either get to be a prophet ("Ha ha! You fools should have listened to me!") or pleasantly surprised ("So I had my doubts but WOW...").

Or maybe they just plain don't like it, no sir. And this being the Internet, that means they get to stand on the corner and tell you about it. A lot. Because that's cooler than kissing the Man's butt.

Modifié par Nissa_Red, 20 janvier 2011 - 08:42 .

[AlanC9]

Nissa_Red wrote...

How about instead some people feel resentful to DA2 because the current game still has unforgivable bugs (ever play DA:O + DA:Awakening ?) that will probably will never be fixed (not unlike Mass Effect 2's bugs) ?

ME2's bugs? ME1's were far worse -- PC version, anyway.

[Rylor Tormtor]

Beaner28 wrote...

Put yourself in our shoes. Would you read all that?

Wow, the old Bioware boards used to be populated by the literate and thoughtfull. Glad to see the social site has brought out a new generation of literati.

Shouldn't be on some other forum where the most substantial posts include ASCII drawings of Ollie Wiliams and Jean-Luc Picard?

Back on topic: I haven't been following DA2's progress since it was first announced that you were playing Shepard as your main character. Now, I played both ME games, I liked both of them to a certain extent (1 more than 2) and it all boils down to opinion. I agree with previous posters that the "angst' has been overrate by a vocal group of supporters. Now, a company like Bioware should have people who support, and often I am one of those. I quite liked DAO. I don't worship as a paragon of RPG goodness (mostly because I am STILL angry that my warrior can be overwhlemed by a dog while using Idomitable and then have my face eaten, but that is neither nor there). The thing is, I enjoyed DAO as DAO, and I enjoyed (to a much lesser extent) ME2 as ME2. I have replayed DAO dozens of times, I could barely make it through a second playthrough of ME2, and I still haven't played the firewalker stuff which has been downloaded and installed since it came out. I wanted DA2 to be more like DAO and less like ME2. Bioware didn't. That's fine, since apparently I am in the minority. Voicing my opinion in one of the few "non companion appreciation threads doesn't consitute hate or fear.

Modifié par Rylor Tormtor, 20 janvier 2011 - 09:01 .

[SandyWB]

Rylor Tormtor wrote...

Beaner28 wrote...

Put yourself in our shoes. Would you read all that?

Wow, the old Bioware boards used to be populated by the literate and thoughtfull. Glad to see the social site has brought out a new generation of literati.

Shouldn't be on some other forum where the most substantial posts include ASCII drawings of Ollie Wiliams and Jean-Luc Picard?

Thank you for saying what I was thinking.

[Nissa_Red]

AlanC9 wrote...

Nissa_Red wrote...

How about instead some people feel resentful to DA2 because the current game still has unforgivable bugs (ever play DA:O + DA:Awakening ?) that will probably will never be fixed (not unlike Mass Effect 2's bugs) ?

ME2's bugs? ME1's were far worse -- PC version, anyway.

Well, don't you put more salt on the wound now

I personally didn't have to suffer much from those. The ME2' ones, however :

- airlift bug
- getting stuck in the geometry
- cover stand up bug
- broken geometry/textures
- invisible enemies

and I could go on...

Modifié par Nissa_Red, 20 janvier 2011 - 09:00 .