464 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

Deadmac wrote...

Morroian wrote...
They would have done their sums and determined that selling less copies at $60 they make more money than selling more copies at $40. If they don't well then they'll revise their strategy next time.

If you feel happy with spending top dollar, to buy something in which will inevitably fall in price, there is no cure for your purchasing habits. I am not saying you are wrong, but I am say that you are in a boat exclusively designed for you.

My purchasing habits? I'm talking overall business strategy for EA what does that have to do with my purchasing habits? I've already said I pre-ordered it for less than RRP, I generally buy games on Steam during one of their sales I buy hardy any games new.

[Il Divo]

In Exile wrote...

Sure, they can enjoy both. But if you enjoy both, then why would a switch bother you?

For a few reasons, one primarily being that DA2 in comparison to DA:O marks a comparative shift from silent to voiced protagonist. The Witcher (from what I've gathered) began with a VA so the Witcher 2 also featuring a VA isn't as troublesome. DA:O however involved a silent protagonist so the inclusion of a VA makes them think that the days of the silent protagonist are gone, even if they enjoy voice-acting. Refusing/holding off on buying DA2 for a time is a form of protest.

Here's an analogy: I enjoy having ketchup on my cheeseburgers and I enjoy chocolate syrup on my ice cream, but I don't enjoy ketchup on my ice cream nor chocolate syrup on my cheeseburgers.

Some might think that DA:O (a cheeseburger) works well with the silent protagonist (ketchup). Including a VA however is like putting chocolate syrup on a cheeseburger, if you catch my meaning.

This, at least, is how I think the reasoning goes. I however personally like the VA featured in DA2.

Modifié par Il Divo, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:41 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Nissa_Red wrote...

Morroian wrote...

Nissa_Red wrote...

So is the "gut the core game to make DLCs ready for purchase the day of release!" concept.

I don't know, what is there not to be appaled over ?

The fact that they didn't gut the game. You've got to stop inventing criticisms.

I don't "invent" criticism. I am not even sure what that means, inventing criticism.

Either one objects to criticism, or one adheres to it. It is really simple.

Since you obviously don't seem to grasp the reality of the frustrating bugs that remain unfixed for many people that purchased Bioware games, despite the sequel being announced for in less than 3 months

While patches are always a concern (especially with the buggy 1.04), the game is coming out in the time you specified, so you kind of have to give credit where it is due. DA2 is the priority.

and the fact that some people do care about all party characters being included to the core game

Besides what has already been said on this issue, if there was no DLC team working on the DLC, we would not get Sebastian or Shale. So DLC party members are not part of the equation when in context of the full party for the original campaign.

we will just have to agree on disagreeing, won't we ?

Yes. We can disagree to agree that not everyone has the same opinion. But disagreement does not translate into not understanding your viewpoint.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:46 .

[Il Divo]

Wicked 702 wrote...

No, this is illogical. Bioware doesn't lose out at all. The point is to make a sale. In Bioware's case, a new game sale rather than a used one. Whether the user pre-orders the game or purchases it at release or post release is irrelevant, the sale has occurred. The exclusive download content could be kept as a bonus for "new game sales", such as what they did with Shale, in order to maximize new game sales. That's the point.

The whole pre-order bonus issue raises questions of marketing gimmicks and other conspiracy theories. But since that's mainly opinion and speculation, there's no point in delving into that here.

Thank you for pointing this out, as it makes alot more sense to me now. I was under the impression that there is some added benefit to a sale off a pre-order than merely picking the game up on release.

[Deadmac]

Wicked 702 wrote...

No, this is illogical. Bioware doesn't lose out at all. The point is to make a sale. In Bioware's case, a new game sale rather than a used one. Whether the user pre-orders the game or purchases it at release or post release is irrelevant, the sale has occurred. The exclusive download content could be kept as a bonus for "new game sales", such as what they did with Shale, in order to maximize new game sales. That's the point.

The whole pre-order bonus issue raises questions of marketing gimmicks and other conspiracy theories. But since that's mainly opinion and speculation, there's no point in delving into that here.

BINGO!

What is funny is that all the content will eventually be available in an 'Ultimate Edition' version of the game. Even though BioWare will hold off and deny such a product, there will no doubt be a version availble for "Dragon Age II" in the future. Less money, less bugs, but more contant.

If BioWare was offering the Signature Edition (through preorder) at a low cost, then we can say there was a benefit for buying the game early. BioWare is not doing that.

Modifié par Deadmac, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:53 .

[Nissa_Red]

Il Divo wrote...
But this is the problem. If Bioware intended Sebastian from the start as being an added extra, they are not required to give him to you. If the bonus content they offer is a party member, that should be a testament to the fact that people enjoy that type of dlc. Ex: Kasumi in Mass Effect 2. Why is Bioware being reprimanded for releasing the type of content people would want to see? If instead of Sebastian the dlc featured something like Warden's Keep, would people suddenly be less angry about this because it's no longer a character?

Kasumi is an excellent example.

A Bioware RPG is all about : 1/ the story, 2/ the party characters, or rather interaction therewith. I don't play Bioware games expecting an extraordinary combat engine, or mountains of shiny loot to be hoarded, or commodities like player houses or storage camps. I would rather pick a tactical fighting simulator like Arma II for the first, Diablo II for the second, Sims III for the third.

I played and finished Mass Effect II before Kasumi was released. I didn't worry about her, nowhere could I hear or read about her, I didn't know she even existed. The enjoyment I got out of the game, barring the bugs, was therefore optimal. At least, I had the same chance at enjoying the game like any other player that purchased the game like me, pre-ordered or not. Later on, I purchased the DLC, and continued to enjoy the game.

At no time, my enjoyment of the game was compromised by a DLC, or a pre-order.

Now let's take Sebastian. Either I choose to play without him, and the fun I will get out of the game will be less, because I will be able to read on the forums about him, think of what in the story could be linked to him, what kind of interactions are possible, or I choose to play with him, and will get the full enjoyment of the game.

In the first case, I will have paid 60€/$ for 90% of (what I consider) the fun, because the game will feel "incomplete", in the second case 60€/$ + 7€/$, for 100% of the fun, contrary to someone who will have pre-ordered who has 100% of the fun for 60€/$.

For the same price, my enjoyment of the game will always be inferior to someone who has pre-ordered.

You will then tell me : the only conclusion is to pre-order!

Right, except :

1/ A pre-order bonus shouldn't be part of the core game. 
2/ I don't wish to encourage editors to continue releasing sequels before buggy games are fixed.

This is fundamental to me.

The only alternatives that I have is to either ignore the game, or wait till it comes as an "ultimate" bundle with everything for a lower price. I believe that neither wins at such a predicament : not Bioware, because I am sure they would like to have as many people pre-ordering or buying soon after release as possible, maximizing their sales in number and price, neither me, because I would like to play good games (understand that I consider "complete", of quality and as bug-free as possible).

Modifié par Nissa_Red, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:56 .

[Morroian]

Deadmac wrote...

If BioWare was offering the Signature Edition (through preorder) at a low cost, then we can say there was a benefit for buying the game early. BioWare is not doing that.

You could pre-order it at substantially less than RRP.

[Morroian]

Nissa_Red wrote...

Now let's take Sebastian. Either I choose to play without him, and the fun I will get out of the game will be less, because I will be able to read on the forums about him, think of what in the story could be linked to him, what kind of interactions are possible, or I choose to play with him, and will get the full enjoyment of the game.

No offence but thats your problem not Bioware's. Its a rationalisation so you can justify saying you get less than 100% of the game. 

[TransientNomad]

What I find truly sad is that because certain people have already decided they will not like the game (even before it's even released) they feel the need to continue to troll these forums, as if to try to convince other players (also who have yet to play the game) that it's going to be terrible and it's somehow wrong to like it.



I remember thinking that the last Resident Evil game looked crappy. Did I constantly troll the capcom forums declaring capcom has betrayed it's fanbase? Nope, cuz doing such a thing would make me a whiny narcissist, and all I would succeed in doing would be wasting my time. I responded to my displeasure of there game by not buying it, nor wasting my time playing it.



Then there are games like Starcraft 2. I was totally convinced I wasn't going to like that one either. Did I complain? Nope. Later, a friend picked it up, I played it and loved it. All my fears proved baseless. Picked it up a week later. Had I simply decided I wasn't going to like it and post my assumptions, I would have looked like a idiot for backtracking later.

[Kaellanen]

Towards the discussion of Sebastion and gutting the game for DLC, it seems to me that many of you are missing the point of DLC. Because of the rampant increase in used game sales in recent years, game publishers are freaking out. They only make money off of the initial sale of the game. When you buy a used game, they at best break even, while the game seller reaps a huge profit. DLC is designed to make sure you buy the game once, then keep it because otherwise you have a harddrive filled with useless junk. That's also why many companies are offering certain download packs free with a pre-order, then charging for those same packs latter. So, yes, they are gutting the game to a certain extent, but it's a messured response to the average gamer. And sadly the current market of games doesn't offer too many games with great replay value, a virtue that has belonged almost exclusively to RPG's down through the years. You cannot blame Bioware, or even EA, for a trend that consumers themselves caused in the first place.

[Morroian]

TransientNomad wrote...

I remember thinking that the last Resident Evil game looked crappy. Did I constantly troll the capcom forums declaring capcom has betrayed it's fanbase? Nope, cuz doing such a thing would make me a whiny narcissist, and all I would succeed in doing would be wasting my time. I responded to my displeasure of there game by not buying it, nor wasting my time playing it.

This. I got angry at Bioware over the DAO DLC, I didn't continue to harangue the forums, I left until DA2 was announced.

[Nissa_Red]

Morroian wrote...
No offence but thats your problem not Bioware's. Its a rationalisation so you can justify saying you get less than 100% of the game. 

Of course, but isn't it the point of these forums and this thread in particular too, for Bioware to try to understand the rationalization of the so-called "hate" against their future game ?

I offer what I consider objective reasons as to why I won't pre-order the game, and probably not even buy the game, in the hopes that Bioware will take them into account sooner or later.

I will just have to cope with it, if they don't. If I, among other people that have concerns about DA2, don't speak up, they sure as hell won't.

[Morroian]

Wicked 702 wrote...

The whole pre-order bonus issue raises questions of marketing gimmicks and other conspiracy theories. But since that's mainly opinion and speculation, there's no point in delving into that here.

It started as a way to combat used game sales but I think its gone beyond that. They're trying to increase the initial numbers shipped because that is to a large extent how the success or failure of a game is determined. I would think that pre-orders made just before the game goes on sale don't affect the initial numbers shipped because they would have already been shipped. So they offer a pre-order bonus that expires around the time that amounts to be shipped to retailers are finalised. Plus they offer a new game bonus after that to combat used game sales.

[JFarr74]

Has anybody just heard about some Dead Space armor being integrated into Dragon Age 2?



http://dragonage.bioware.com/addon/

[Kaellanen]

Ha ha ha I was just looking at that! I'm going to blame that more on EA holding a vacuum over people's wallets. I love extra content of all kinds, but I'm going to have to draw the line on this one.

[Nissa_Red]

Thank you for your interesting insight.

What was so wrong about the DLC/pre-order policy that was used for Mass Effect 2 or Dragon Age till now ? What is so wrong with the pre-order policies of other games, like The Witcher ?

At no point did I feel these games were gutted like I do for DA2, for example.

You may say the effect is entirely psychological, but it is there, along with the distasteful impression gaming companies try to enter a race of time with customers so that they don't have to assume the (expensive!) support of their games any longer : "the game is buggy, so what, we've already got the sequel lining up on the shelves. Just have a look!"

Kaellanen wrote...

Towards the discussion of Sebastion and gutting the game for DLC, it seems to me that many of you are missing the point of DLC. Because of the rampant increase in used game sales in recent years, game publishers are freaking out. They only make money off of the initial sale of the game. When you buy a used game, they at best break even, while the game seller reaps a huge profit. DLC is designed to make sure you buy the game once, then keep it because otherwise you have a harddrive filled with useless junk. That's also why many companies are offering certain download packs free with a pre-order, then charging for those same packs latter. So, yes, they are gutting the game to a certain extent, but it's a messured response to the average gamer. And sadly the current market of games doesn't offer too many games with great replay value, a virtue that has belonged almost exclusively to RPG's down through the years. You cannot blame Bioware, or even EA, for a trend that consumers themselves caused in the first place.

[Il Divo]

Nissa_Red wrote...

Kasumi is an excellent example.

A Bioware RPG is all about : 1/ the story, 2/ the party characters, or rather interaction therewith. I don't play Bioware games expecting an extraordinary combat engine, or mountains of shiny loot to be hoarded, or commodities like player houses or storage camps. I would rather pick a tactical fighting simulator like Arma II for the first, Diablo II for the second, Sims III for the third.

Alright, I'm with you so far.

I played and finished Mass Effect II before Kasumi was released. I didn't worry about her, nowhere could I hear or read about her, I didn't know she even existed. The enjoyment I got out of the game, barring the bugs, was therefore optimal. At least, I had the same chance at enjoying the game like any other player that purchased the game like me, pre-ordered or not. Later on, I purchased the DLC, and continued to enjoy the game.

At no time, my enjoyment of the game was compromised by a DLC, or a pre-order.

But this is where I think things get odd. Why is your enjoyment of a product contingent upon what other people experience? Yes, I can understand your anger at obtaining less content for the same price, but you were afforded the same opportunity as everyone else to obtain the game, which you chose to turn down because you don't believe in developers releasing buggy final products. They did not target you specifically. They offered you the same deal as everyone else which due to circumstances you chose not to embrace.

Now let's take Sebastian. Either I choose to play without him, and the fun I will get out of the game will be less, because I will be able to read on the forums about him, think of what in the story could be linked to him, what kind of interactions are possible, or I choose to play with him, and will get the full enjoyment of the game.

But then why are you reading about him? Aside from knowing the dlc exists, there does exist the option to ignore all information which will decrease the pleasure you experience. Your lack of enjoyment in DA2 doesn't extend from them not giving you all the content of a complete game; they released a full game and envisioned the character as a completely separate addition. I bought a brand new copy of DA:O as everyone else did, but simply forgot to download Shale. At no point did I notice any gaping hole in content that only this dlc could fill. My enjoyment of the game did not stem from what content other players were experiencing but from my own analysis.

I played DA:O without Shale and felt more than satisfied with the experience. I went back and downloaded Shale and viewed her as a great addition to the roster, but had I never downloaded her I would still have been content with my party.

In the first case, I will have paid 60€/$ for 90% of (what I consider) the fun, because the game will feel "incomplete", in the second case 60€/$ + 7€/$, for 100% of the fun, contrary to someone who will have pre-ordered who has 100% of the fun for 60€/$.

For the same price, my enjoyment of the game will always be inferior to someone who has pre-ordered.

You will then tell me : the only conclusion is to pre-order!

But I'm not seeing how you reach this conclusion. For the same price, the enjoyment you receive from the game (without Sebastian) could still be be much higher than the enjoyment someone else receives (even with Sebastian). This might not be considered 'fair' but is inevitable. Rather, if you will permit me to say so, I think your perception of the game is being colored by what you see other players obtaining.

If anything, isn't your overall enjoyment going to be much less since now you will be witnessing people play Dragon Age 2 (both with and without Sebastian) while you wait for a bundle deal?

Right, except :

1/ A pre-order bonus shouldn't be part of the core game. 
2/ I don't wish to encourage editors to continue releasing sequels before buggy games are fixed.

So, let me ask you this so we can be clear, by the bolded are you saying that Sebastian should *not* be offered at all since he is included as a preorder bonus? I think having the option to obtain him at all, even if you choose not to, certainly counts for something.

Now, if you're saying that Sebastian should be included at release with all copies, this I completely disagree with. Sebastian would never have existed at all then because he was intended as dlc from the start, even for those purchasing a new game. Sure, you could argue that you would never have known about Sebastian and so could never be angry about now acquiring him, but personally I view any additional party members, whether I pay extra or not, whether I obtain them at the same time as other players, as a bonus. I just don't feel entitled to content that developers intended from the start as a paid investment.

This is fundamental to me.

The only alternatives that I have is to either ignore the game, or wait till it comes as an "ultimate" bundle with everything for a lower price. I believe that neither wins at such a predicament : not Bioware, because I am sure they would like to have as many people pre-ordering or buying soon after release as possible, maximizing their sales in number and price, neither me, because I would like to play good games (understand that I consider "complete", of quality and as bug-free as possible).

But as I said earlier, if you employ the 'ignore the game' route, doesn't this mean that you are left with even less enjoyment until you acquire the ultimate bundle?

I also have to ask: By taking you at your word, should I assume that once dlc for any Bioware game comes, if you don't acquire it, do you enjoy your gaming experience less since you know other people are able to experience the content?

Ex: Kasumi. Once Kasumi was released, if you had never purchased her, would Mass Effect 2 suddenly seem worse knowing other people could play through that content? 

Modifié par Il Divo, 21 janvier 2011 - 01:32 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Nissa_Red wrote...

Morroian wrote...
No offence but thats your problem not Bioware's. Its a rationalisation so you can justify saying you get less than 100% of the game. 

Of course, but isn't it the point of these forums and this thread in particular too, for Bioware to try to understand the rationalization of the so-called "hate" against their future game ?

I offer what I consider objective reasons as to why I won't pre-order the game, and probably not even buy the game, in the hopes that Bioware will take them into account sooner or later.

BioWare has stated why Sebastian/Shale/any DLC exists. It's not that they don't know that some people don't think of a game as complete without DLC. BioWare is fully aware of this. They have addressed this on multiple threads. BW is not stupid, and outright implying that they don' t know what they are doing when they are the ones making the game is lame. But the hard fact is that the main campaign was made without the DLC, thus making it complimentary. Frankly, I'm surprised that the DLC for BW games actually affects as much as it does.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 21 janvier 2011 - 01:35 .

[Morroian]

Nissa_Red wrote...

I offer what I consider objective reasons as to why I won't pre-order the game, and probably not even buy the game, in the hopes that Bioware will take them into account sooner or later.

But your reasons aren't objective, they are in fact entirely subjective based on an emotional response to knowing there's extra content that you haven't got.

Nissa_Red wrote...

What was so wrong about the DLC/pre-order policy that was used for Mass Effect 2 or Dragon Age till now ? What is so wrong with the pre-order policies of other games, like The Witcher ?

Read my message above yours for a possible reason.

Modifié par Morroian, 21 janvier 2011 - 01:34 .

[JamesX]

I don't see how any one can say DLC is not part of the game so it is not like they cut content.

The problem is that 1 they finished the DLC before the game is out.
2, the "level of content" is arbitary set forth by the maker.
3, they could have very well set the content level by including the DLC because it is ready and there.

So someone made a choice that the DLC Content will be seperate even thought it is made at the same time as the actual game.

It is the same as if Bioware just decided that The 6 origins will be 100% of the game and have "seperate team" develop everything that happen after that as DLC.

It is just an arbitary decision designed to make the most profit out of their venture. They want you to spent more money. Either by re-buying the game as Ultimate, Buying each DLC, and buying new copies of the game. You can argue that it is just marketing forces, but it is also disheartening. The really sad part is that young generation now consider this the norm. And being the norm it is now beyond turning back - because no matter how many of those who hate DLC will refuse to buy it, the market is there because of those less opposed. So everyone at the end, end up paying more.

Modifié par JamesX, 21 janvier 2011 - 01:35 .

[Piecake]

Kaellanen wrote...

Towards the discussion of Sebastion and gutting the game for DLC, it seems to me that many of you are missing the point of DLC. Because of the rampant increase in used game sales in recent years, game publishers are freaking out. They only make money off of the initial sale of the game. When you buy a used game, they at best break even, while the game seller reaps a huge profit. DLC is designed to make sure you buy the game once, then keep it because otherwise you have a harddrive filled with useless junk. That's also why many companies are offering certain download packs free with a pre-order, then charging for those same packs latter. So, yes, they are gutting the game to a certain extent, but it's a messured response to the average gamer. And sadly the current market of games doesn't offer too many games with great replay value, a virtue that has belonged almost exclusively to RPG's down through the years. You cannot blame Bioware, or even EA, for a trend that consumers themselves caused in the first place.

Seems like it is also a tool to fight against rampant piracy.

[Kaellanen]

Ha ha I'm not actually trying to argue with you too much. I'm actually really against any kind of big business, and sadly you don't get much bigger than video games these days. I'm also pretty hypocritical, because I find myself totally addicted, and if I find a game I love, I tend to buy every possible addon, because like you mentioned, I have a deep need to play 100% of the game (check out my achievement list for Dragon Age for proof). But I just felt the need that we as gamers as a whole have helped engender the very things we are currently complaining about. We bear part of the responsibility for DLC and lackluster games. And please note I use "we" as in the gamer community as a whole.



All that being said, I'd also like to point out we play these games for fun. Hmm, that might be making assumptions actually, so I'll say then that I play games for fun. And when the game stops being fun, I turn it off, call some friends, and engage in shennanigans. Not to sound overly philosophical, but ultimately, you're in charge of your own fun.

[Deadmac]

JFarr74 wrote...
Has anybody just heard about some Dead Space armor being integrated into Dragon Age 2?
http://dragonage.bioware.com/addon/

After reading that page, I have no doubt in my mind. EA's version of BioWare was built upon greed.

Straight from the page...

Purchase Dead Space 2 today and get a code* to unlock a special set of Isaac Clarke inspired armor for the upcoming, Action-RPG from BioWare, Dragon Age 2.

Other words, you have to buy "Dragon Age II" and "Dead Space II", so you can get four exclusive pieces of armor. When they are rewarding 'potential' customers with tiny trinkets, you know they have crossed over to the 'sold out' realm. It is the same gimmick they are using for the preorders. "If you buy our product now, you get shiny-shiny shoes for your chracter to wear."

EA's version of BioWare is a very sad and greedy company.

They have officially sold out.

Modifié par Deadmac, 21 janvier 2011 - 01:40 .

[Morroian]

JamesX wrote...

I don't see how any one can say DLC is not part of the game so it is not like they cut content.

Yet reasons have been given which you ignore in this post.And no its not arbitrary.

Modifié par Morroian, 21 janvier 2011 - 01:38 .

[Piecake]

Deadmac wrote...

JFarr74 wrote...
Has anybody just heard about some Dead Space armor being integrated into Dragon Age 2?
http://dragonage.bioware.com/addon/

After reading that page, I have no doubt in my mind. EA's version of BioWare was built upon greed.

Straight from the page...

Purchase Dead Space 2 today and get a code* to unlock a special set of Isaac Clarke inspired armor for the upcoming, Action-RPG from BioWare, Dragon Age 2.

Other words, you have to buy "Dragon Age II" and "Dead Space II", so you can get four exclusive pieces of armor. When they are rewarding 'potential' customers with tiny trinkets, you know they have crossed over to the 'sold out' realm. It is the same gimmick they are using for the preorders. "If you buy our product now, you get shiny-shiny shoes for your chracter to wear."

EA's version of BioWare is a very sad and greedy company.

They have officially sold out.

overreaction to the extreme