764 réponses à ce sujet

[JFarr74]

I killed him on every other playthrough. I'm gonna let him live for the save game that I'll import into Dragon Age 2.

[Persephone]

JFarr74 wrote...

I killed him on every other playthrough. I'm gonna let him live for the save game that I'll import into Dragon Age 2.

Ah gotcha. Word of advice: Get his "Friendly Fix" made by Ejoslin. (On DAO Nexus) . And treat him kindly, he will tell you much more if you do. Happy gaming!:happy:

[JFarr74]

Persephone wrote...

JFarr74 wrote...

I killed him on every other playthrough. I'm gonna let him live for the save game that I'll import into Dragon Age 2.

Ah gotcha. Word of advice: Get his "Friendly Fix" made by Ejoslin. (On DAO Nexus) . And treat him kindly, he will tell you much more if you do. Happy gaming!:happy:

Thanks!!

[DragonRacer13]

Persephone wrote...

JFarr74 wrote...

I killed him on every other playthrough. I'm gonna let him live for the save game that I'll import into Dragon Age 2.

Ah gotcha. Word of advice: Get his "Friendly Fix" made by Ejoslin. (On DAO Nexus) . And treat him kindly, he will tell you much more if you do. Happy gaming!:happy:

Hey, Persephone... do you have a link to the video files she uploaded of Loghain's unlocked friendly dialogue? I want to eventually reference it in my fic, but I stupidly didn't save the link and it is... buried somewhere in hundreds of pages of Loghain appreciation thread.

[Persephone]

DragonRacer13 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

JFarr74 wrote...

I killed him on every other playthrough. I'm gonna let him live for the save game that I'll import into Dragon Age 2.

Ah gotcha. Word of advice: Get his "Friendly Fix" made by Ejoslin. (On DAO Nexus) . And treat him kindly, he will tell you much more if you do. Happy gaming!:happy:

Hey, Persephone... do you have a link to the video files she uploaded of Loghain's unlocked friendly dialogue? I want to eventually reference it in my fic, but I stupidly didn't save the link and it is... buried somewhere in hundreds of pages of Loghain appreciation thread.

Sure, I do. I am very obsessive after all! 

They are all here: www.youtube.com/user/Ellewilde#p/u

[Augustei]

LobselVith8 wrote...

JFarr74 wrote...

Oh dude..then bye bye Loghain I guess, plus....why did he even betray the Grey Wardens

To be fair, in The Calling, the Grey Wardens did try to help create a mass genocide that would have turned every living person into a ghoul. Not to mention that Ferelden and Orlais don't exactly have a healthy relationship, given how Orlesians invaded Ferelden, then raped and murdered people (like Loghain's mother right in front of him when he was a boy). Sparing him is no different than sparing Zevran or Sten, who also made mistakes.

Only two of them.. Because Genevive didn't know about the Architects true plans she doesnt count.. So one stupid abomination ghoul and one toungeless dwarf.. So not really any reason for Loghain to come up with that idea.. Especially since most of the other Grey Wardens fought to protect Maric

[ReD BaKen9]

so if i harden alistair he will marry anora and i can let loghain live but alistair will leave the party?Does anora gives the final speach and when my guy dies anora gives death speech?

[USArmyParatrooper]

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

JFarr74 wrote...

Oh dude..then bye bye Loghain I guess, plus....why did he even betray the Grey Wardens

To be fair, in The Calling, the Grey Wardens did try to help create a mass genocide that would have turned every living person into a ghoul. Not to mention that Ferelden and Orlais don't exactly have a healthy relationship, given how Orlesians invaded Ferelden, then raped and murdered people (like Loghain's mother right in front of him when he was a boy). Sparing him is no different than sparing Zevran or Sten, who also made mistakes.

Only two of them.. Because Genevive didn't know about the Architects true plans she doesnt count.. So one stupid abomination ghoul and one toungeless dwarf.. So not really any reason for Loghain to come up with that idea.. Especially since most of the other Grey Wardens fought to protect Maric

I've never read the book but I've seen others make this claim. So it wasn't the Grey Wardens as an organization (as some claim), but rather one Warden who went off the deep end? 

[DragonRacer13]

Persephone wrote...

DragonRacer13 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

JFarr74 wrote...

I killed him on every other playthrough. I'm gonna let him live for the save game that I'll import into Dragon Age 2.

Ah gotcha. Word of advice: Get his "Friendly Fix" made by Ejoslin. (On DAO Nexus) . And treat him kindly, he will tell you much more if you do. Happy gaming!:happy:

Hey, Persephone... do you have a link to the video files she uploaded of Loghain's unlocked friendly dialogue? I want to eventually reference it in my fic, but I stupidly didn't save the link and it is... buried somewhere in hundreds of pages of Loghain appreciation thread.

Sure, I do. I am very obsessive after all! 

They are all here: www.youtube.com/user/Ellewilde#p/u

Thank you kindly, my dear! ILU

[LobselVith8]

XxDeonxX wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

JFarr74 wrote...

Oh dude..then bye bye Loghain I guess, plus....why did he even betray the Grey Wardens

To be fair, in The Calling, the Grey Wardens did try to help create a mass genocide that would have turned every living person into a ghoul. Not to mention that Ferelden and Orlais don't exactly have a healthy relationship, given how Orlesians invaded Ferelden, then raped and murdered people (like Loghain's mother right in front of him when he was a boy). Sparing him is no different than sparing Zevran or Sten, who also made mistakes.

Only two of them.. Because Genevive didn't know about the Architects true plans she doesnt count.. So one stupid abomination ghoul and one toungeless dwarf.. So not really any reason for Loghain to come up with that idea.. Especially since most of the other Grey Wardens fought to protect Maric

If more than one Warden helped him, then it was indeed Wardens who participated with the Architect. If Wardens were willing to risk Maric's life in the Deep Roads (and we know Duncan was under orders to kill Maric if he was a danger to the Wardens) and some were willing to aid an intelligent darkspawn, I don't see why Loghain would trust them.

[nos_astra]

How could Loghain possibly know that? Even if it were several Wardens, how can he justify dismissing the entire order 20 years later based on this and nothing else?

He does the same with Orlais. "They used to be our enemies, now they are offering assistance at Cailan's request and waiting at the border. Quick, let's offend them while there are hints that Ferelden might witness the beginnings of a Blight!" Nothing gets General McAwesome's blood running like antagonizing a stronger country. And while he's at it, a civil war is just what the country needs on top of it. Loghain is no politician, so, of course, he can't be expected to have a grasp on the basics of Fereldan politics.

And conveniently his daughter, fully capable queen-regnant, gracefully moves aside to let him do what he deems necessary. Diplomatic relations with Orlais? Or the Anderfels? Pish-posh! Don't bother us with facts, we have an opinion.

Luckily the Darkspawn stayed confined to the south of Ferelden for most of the time, leaving the Deep Roads empty and Ferelden alone for a year. Imagine they had spread, the Bannorn would have had a reason to refuse following Loghain.

*rolleyes*

Modifié par klarabella, 19 février 2011 - 06:55 .

[Addai]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

I've never read the book but I've seen others make this claim. So it wasn't the Grey Wardens as an organization (as some claim), but rather one Warden who went off the deep end? 

You should definitely read the books!  Nevertheless I'll give you a Reader's Digest if you really don't intend to.


MASSIVE SPOILERS FOR THE CALLING, STOLEN THRONE AND WARDEN'S KEEP FOLLOW




The context is, the Grey Wardens had been expelled from Ferelden some 400 years prior because they tried to overthrow the king.  They also used blood magic on the nobles to mind control them into supporting their cause.  This is the story line of the Wardens Keep DLC.

Maric received a warning/ prophecy from Flemeth that a Blight would come to Ferelden but that he would not live to see it.  When he was approached by a group of Grey Wardens from Orlais, he agreed to help them because he thought he might avert Flemeth's prophecy.  They needed to go into a part of the Deep Roads that Maric and Loghain travelled during the rebellion against Orlais, to find a missing Warden who had knowledge of the whereabouts of the old gods.  Loghain thought he had talked him out of it, but Maric went anyway in secret.  When next Loghain sees him, it is because he has gotten reports of Orlesians taking over the Circle Tower.  It turns out that the Orlesian First Enchanter was in cahoots with an intelligent darkspawn on a plan to taint all of humanity and reverse-taint the darkspawn in order to end the Blight cycle.  Several of the Grey Wardens on the expedition (including the missing Warden) also were cooperating with the darkspawn.  Loghain shows up with troops and saves the day, along with Maric, Duncan etc.

That is Loghain's previous experience of the Wardens.  Maric restores the order to Ferelden, though it is still in rebuilding stages as of Origins game time.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 février 2011 - 07:11 .

[USArmyParatrooper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If more than one Warden helped him, then it was indeed Wardens who participated with the Architect. If Wardens were willing to risk Maric's life in the Deep Roads (and we know Duncan was under orders to kill Maric if he was a danger to the Wardens) and some were willing to aid an intelligent darkspawn, I don't see why Loghain would trust them.

Come on now, you said "THE Gray Wardens", which implies the organization itself sanctioned what they did.

Here's part of the synopsis of the book: 

http://dragonage.wik...ge:_The_Calling

"Now, having reclaimed the throne, King Maric finally allows the
legendary Grey Wardens to return to Ferelden after two hundred years of
exile. When they come, however, they bring dire news: ONE of their own
has escaped into the Deep Roads and aligned himself with their ancient
enemy, the monstrous darkspawn. The Grey Wardens need Maric's help to
find him."

So when you say, "THE Gray Wardens" tried to create mass genocide, don't you think you're being misleading? It was ONE who had that intention and THE Gray Wardens were trying to stop him.

[Addai]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
So when you say, "THE Gray Wardens" tried to create mass genocide, don't you think you're being misleading? It was ONE who had that intention and THE Gray Wardens were trying to stop him.

No, that's not accurate.

SPOILERS



One went missing, a group of them went to find him, and two of those also agreed to collude with the darkspawn.  There were no Grey Wardens in Ferelden at the time.  These were Orlesians.

Regardless, Loghain doesn't hate the Wardens.  As he tells you if you talk to him in Ostagar, they have an honored place and his best friend trusted them, he saw several Wardens whom he deeply respects (he'll mention a Dalish elf and a female warrior specifically).  He just doesn't put as much stock in the Warden legend as others do.  He's seen that the truth is more complicated and that the order can in fact be deeply political and deeply flawed, not putting Ferelden's or even humanity's interests above their own.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 février 2011 - 07:16 .

[LobselVith8]

klarabella wrote...

How could Loghain possibly know that? Even if it were several Wardens, how can he justify dismissing the entire order 20 years later based on this and nothing else?

Based on his concern that this wasn't a real Blight and Orlais would try to take over Ferelden again? He's not even far off. Celene I has an "alliance" with Cailan that would have put the nation in her control because he's a weak King when they got married.

klarabella wrote...

He does the same with Orlais. "They used to be our enemies, now they are offering assistance at Cailan's request and waiting at the border. Quick, let's offend them while there are hints that Ferelden might witness the beginnings of a Blight!" Nothing gets General McAwesome's blood running like antagonizing a stronger country. And while he's at it, a civil war is just what the country needs on top of it. Loghain is no politician, so, of course, he can't be expected to have a grasp on the basics of Fereldan politics.

You mean the man who saw his mother raped and murdered by Orlesians, and fought a bloodly campaign to free his nation from Orlesian oppressors, doesn't think Orlesian troops in Ferelden would have altruistic motives? He was wrong about the Blight; he has to be stopped. But Cailan would have destroyed the nation with his marriage to Celene, so Loghain wasn't wrong that the Orlesian PTB still want control of Ferelden.

klarabella wrote...

And conveniently his daughter, fully capable queen-regnant, gracefully moves aside to let him do what he deems necessary. Diplomatic relations with Orlais? Or the Anderfels? Pish-posh! Don't bother us with facts, we have an opinion.

Given Orlais history of conquering other nations since its inception, and even using their victory of the Third Blight to conquer Nevarra, what do you expect Loghain to think would happen if the Orlesian troops succeeded?

klarabella wrote...

Luckily the Darkspawn stayed confined to the south of Ferelden for most of the time, leaving the Deep Roads empty and Ferelden alone for a year. Imagine they had spread, the Bannorn would have had a reason to refuse following Loghain.

*rolleyes*

They destroyed the South.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Addai67 wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
So when you say, "THE Gray Wardens" tried to create mass genocide, don't you think you're being misleading? It was ONE who had that intention and THE Gray Wardens were trying to stop him.

No, that's not accurate.

SPOILERS



One went missing, a group of them went to find him, and two of those also agreed to collude with the darkspawn.  There were no Grey Wardens in Ferelden at the time.  These were Orlesians.

Regardless, Loghain doesn't hate the Wardens.  As he tells you if you talk to him in Ostagar, they have an honored place and his best friend trusted them, he saw several Wardens whom he deeply respects (he'll mention a Dalish elf and a female warrior specifically).  He just doesn't put as much stock in the Warden legend as others do.  He's seen that the truth is more complicated and that the order can in fact be deeply political and deeply flawed, not putting Ferelden's or even humanity's interests above their own.

So that makes three. Still, is it accurate to say THE gray wardens conspired to commit genocide? 

[LobselVith8]

Nobody said all of them did in the first place. The word "the" does not equal "all."

[Addai]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

So that makes three. Still, is it accurate to say THE gray wardens conspired to commit genocide? 

I'm giving you the context of Loghain's mistrust of the Wardens.  There are some pretty big strikes against the order, especially in Ferelden.

[USArmyParatrooper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Nobody said all of them did in the first place. The word "the" does not equal "all."

"The Gray Wardens" are an organization, so when when you throw in "the" you're referring to the organization itself.

It would be like a couple of NYPD officers getting caught dealing drugs, and then someone says, "The New York Police were dealing drugs" The implication of such a statement would suggest the department itself was involved and sactioned that activity.

You honestly don't see the distinction between saying, "The Gray Wardens did..." as opposed to saying, "A couple of Gray Wardens"? 

[wickedgoodreed]

It's worth mentioning, I think, that they weren't just any Grey Wardens. Two out of the three were high ranking members of Grey Warden leadership. One is the current Commander of the Grey in Orlais and the other had been the Commander for decades prior to embarking on (and subsequently failing) his Calling.



So from Loghain's point of view, a lead representative of the Grey Wardens had sided with the darkspawn. The fact that it came from the top makes his suspicion of the organization as a whole more valid, to my mind.

[nos_astra]

Again, Loghain wasn't present all the time, so is it possible you confuse knowledge the reader would have with knowledge Loghain could (not) have?

Also, three high-ranking Wardens still don't equal the Wardens as an organization 20 years later. He had no such issues with the Circle of Magi.

Modifié par klarabella, 19 février 2011 - 09:12 .

[nos_astra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Nobody said all of them did in the first place. The word "the" does not equal "all."

But Loghain's actions do. The Warden Commander of Ferelden assured Cailan that this is indeed a Blight, a claim that is backed up by the fact that there are indeed darkspawn raids and increasing numbers of darkspawn on the surface, culminating in a battle he deemed unwinnable due to being hopelessly outnumbered in a very defensible position.

Logic dictates that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it surely cannot be a duck but must be a highly conspirational plot to bring Ferelden back under Orlesian rule instead, thus the darkspawn must be ignored and Ferelden must unite under Loghain's banner to fight Orlais - even if it predictably causes civil war.

[wickedgoodreed]

klarabella wrote...

Again, Loghain wasn't present all the time, so is it possible you confuse knowledge the reader would have with knowledge Loghain could (not) have?

Also, three high-ranking Wardens still don't equal the Wardens as an organization 20 years later.He had no such issues with the Circle of Magi.

He doesn't have to be present all the time. He knew very well who Commander Genevieve was, and I'm sure he had Maric fill in all the details about what she had done after he rescued him.

And, I realize it doesn't equal the organization as a whole. But there is a trickle down effect when it comes to leaders of organizations, and I still think it makes his suspicions regarding the credibility of the organization as a whole warranted.  If the person responsible for heading an organization dedicated to fighting darkspawn puts the life of the King of Ferelden in danger and also sides with the very creatures their organization is charged with eradicating, it reflects poorly on the organization as a whole.

[nos_astra]

wickedgoodreed wrote...
He doesn't have to be present all the time. He knew very well who Commander Genevieve was, and I'm sure he had Maric fill in all the details about what she had done after he rescued him.

You are sure about that? I remember Flemeth giving Maric a warning about Loghain, so I'm not sure at all that he would always turn to Loghain and give him a detailed report as to what had happened.

Loghain didn't exactly approve of Maric's little adventure to begin with.

wickedgoodreed wrote...
I still think it makes his suspicions regarding the credibility of the organization as a whole warranted.

Suspicion and caution, yes. Paranoia to a point where you come close to ruining your own country because you let your personal demons take over and handle things, no.

Genevieve was only Warden Commander of Orlais. That may be a bit higher-ranking than what Duncan was, but she is not the head of the order. That would be the First Warden in the Anderfels (not Orlais!).

About Cailan on the front lines. You should be aware that Fereldan tradition is based on a system of barbarian warlords. Cailan would be the highest ranking of the warlords and as the King of Ferelden he would be expected to fight!

Modifié par klarabella, 19 février 2011 - 03:06 .

[JFarr74]

Flemeth did give Maric a warning about Loghain in The Stolen Throne