764 réponses à ce sujet

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

While Loghain's vision is very limited, he coudl still see this (a blind man could).
That puts the entire plan in jeopordy. That is what made Loghain leave, what he saw during the battle that made him be sure that it couldn't be won, his initial pessisim notwithstanding.

You're still not addressing the point. Prior to the battle Loghain made elaborate plans to abandon the king because he knew there was a strong likelihood he would do just that, though that's not saying it was certain. When it got to that point that he should have walked out prior to the battle and forced Cailan's hand.

You don't go into a battle as an augmentee force unless you're fully committed. Any plans for retreat (or break contact in modern terms) should be planned with whoever is in charge.

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
You're still not addressing the point. Prior to the battle Loghain made elaborate plans to abandon the king because he knew there was a strong likelihood he would do just that, though that's not saying it was certain. When it got to that point that he should have walked out prior to the battle and forced Cailan's hand.

I did address it. Obviously Loghain did not think the battle was so unwinnable, until during. Not before.
His retreat plan was a plan B. He was pessimistic (and hence thought that retreat could be necessary), but he did not think for sure that the battle was unwinnable until during. Hence why he retreated during and not before.

To sumarize, Loghain was pessimistic and prepared for retreat as plan B, but still thought that the battle could be won. Until during the battle when he realized that it couldn't be won and that's when he decided to retreat.  

[Addai]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
I agree he didn't choose a letter until the beacan was lit. I assigned his tuck and run plan letter 'A' because he obviously thinks the battle is going to go bad. My point is if he felt so strongly it would go bad he makes elaborate dessertion plans, then he should have walked out prior to the battle, not during.

And that would change things how?  You really think Cailan would back down and not fight?  If so, have we played the same game?  lol

The problem, I think, is that you are assigning certainty where there is none.  Loghain plans for all eventualities, that it is his nature and not just a particular scheming turn he's taken at Ostagar.  He had a feeling the battle was going to go badly, and knew he might have to pull out.  That does not equate to knowing that he would pull out, no matter how much you want to make it so.  It's your interpretation and you're entitled to it, though it contradicts the game writer's assessment of his state of mind.

Modifié par Addai67, 20 février 2011 - 05:32 .

[Glorfindel709]

I kind of have a bit of a question about Loghain that Ive never really seen answered yet if y'all don't mind.



What's the consensus on Loghains' ordering Jowan to poison Arl Eamon?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...
What's the consensus on Loghains' ordering Jowan to poison Arl Eamon?

I, Skadi and others (I assume Costin as well) say it was stupid. The poison should have been made to kill, not incapacitate. Addai and others do not agree with us. But I will not presume to talk on her behalf.

The purpose of the poisoning was to confront Cailan, who would be more amendable to persuasion if Eamon, so Loghain thought, was removed from the picture a bit. Apparently Loghain thinks Eamon is a bad influence, which isn't totally farfechted (RtO letters).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 février 2011 - 05:44 .

[Glorfindel709]

I mean, I agree that it was unwise to rely on incapacitation to assume that he'd stay out of the loop forever.



But I was saying more on the lines of how the knowledge that he had someone poison his biggest competition in Ferelden (especially after Howe took care of the Couslands) political process figures in to his possible plan for quitting the field.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...
But I was saying more on the lines of how the knowledge that he had someone poison his biggest competition in Ferelden (especially after Howe took care of the Couslands) political process figures in to his possible plan for quitting the field.

It was unrelated. Like Gaider said, it was to confront Cailan. It did not necessitate his withdrawal from Ostagar.

Of course the PC him/herself can't know this for sure and can indeed suspect that it was all preplanned and that he was eliminating potential opponents. It would be a valid suspicion. Wrong, but valid. Afterall, many in RL live and die with suspicions that are perfectly valid, but wrong.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 février 2011 - 05:57 .

[Addai]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

I kind of have a bit of a question about Loghain that Ive never really seen answered yet if y'all don't mind.

What's the consensus on Loghains' ordering Jowan to poison Arl Eamon?

It makes more sense in the original intent that Cailan was going to pursue a marriage with the Orlesian empress.  They kept the poisoning, but weakened the intent behind it, which was to put one of Cailan's supporters on a timeout during a showdown over a marriage alliance between Ferelden and Orlais.  As things stand in the game, it was Cailan's overtures to bring in chevaliers that was the rationale.

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
You're still not addressing the point. Prior to the battle Loghain made elaborate plans to abandon the king because he knew there was a strong likelihood he would do just that, though that's not saying it was certain. When it got to that point that he should have walked out prior to the battle and forced Cailan's hand.

I did address it. Obviously Loghain did not think the battle was so unwinnable, until during. Not before.
His retreat plan was a plan B. He was pessimistic (and hence thought that retreat could be necessary), but he did not think for sure that the battle was unwinnable until during. Hence why he retreated during and not before.

To sumarize, Loghain was pessimistic and prepared for retreat as plan B, but still thought that the battle could be won. Until during the battle when he realized that it couldn't be won and that's when he decided to retreat.  

You're making an excellent rebuttal against an argument I haven't made. I did NOT say Loghain thought "for sure" the battle would be unwinnable. I said he thought the battle would likely go badly, a very different thing.

You said it yourself: "Loghain was pessimistic" <---- your words

So pessimistic, in fact, that he made secret plans to abandon the king's army and avoid blame if his fears came true.

The right thing to do would have been to either force Cailan's hand by walking out prior to the battle, or coordinating with the king withdraw plans for all the men as a contingency. What Loghain did was cowardly and disagraceful.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 20 février 2011 - 06:43 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
You said it yourself: "Loghain was pessimistic" <---- your words

So pessimistic, in fact, that he made secret plans to abandon the king's army and avoid blame if his fears came true.

Ok, I see your problem. You think "pessimistic" means that he thinks that it's very likely that they are going to lose. I do not mean it that way. Pessimistic as in their chances were not that great to begin with, but it was still possible to win. Only during the battle, did that pessimism turn into certainty that the battle cannot be won, hence he retreated. Loghain had mixed feelings about the battle before, but still thought it could be won, until during the battle. Do I need to make it clearer?

And there was no possible way to retreat without leaving a rear guard to cover it. And he did tell Cailan a million times not to fight.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 février 2011 - 06:50 .

[CalJones]

Here is David Gaider's post about Eamon's poisoning, for reference.

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
You said it yourself: "Loghain was pessimistic" <---- your words

So pessimistic, in fact, that he made secret plans to abandon the king's army and avoid blame if his fears came true.

Ok, I see your problem. You think "pessimistic" means that he thinks that it's very likely that they are going to lose. I do not mean it that way. Pessimistic as in their chances were not that great to begin with, but it was still possible to win. Only during the battle, did that pessimism turn into certainty that the battle cannot be won, hence he retreated. Loghain had mixed feelings about the battle before, but still thought it could be won, until during the battle. Do I need to make it clearer?

And there was no possible way to retreat without leaving a rear guard to cover it. And he did tell Cailan a million times not to fight.

So we're on the same page that Loghain went into the battle expecting a strong likelihood of losing. Yes, he thought it could be won, but he considered that an off chance.

Yes, he did try to argue this case before hand but he still pretended to commit his troops to the cause. And by commit, I mean to the point that it's generally expected. You don't work your troops into the battle plan, but at the same time expect you're likely to abandon them. As I said, if he's to the point that that he feels drawing those plans in secret is necessary, then he should not have agreed to participate in the first place. Even though Loghain didn't know 100% he was going to do what he did, it was still a deception.

As per Gaider whether or not Loghain's assessment was correct or not is purely speculative. For all we know they could have won had Loghain not abandoned the men.

PS: There was no possible way to retreat based on what? I'm no ancient military strategist, but certainly even in those times they could put escape plans into the battle plan.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 20 février 2011 - 07:14 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
So we're on the same page that Loghain went into the battle expecting a strong likelihood of losing. Yes, he thought it could be won, but he considered that an off chance.

No, we are not then. Before the battle, he thought that losing was a strong possibility, but not very likely to happen. That's during the battle that he came to realize this.

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
As per Gaider whether or not Loghain's assessment was correct or not is purely speculative. For all we know they could have won had Loghain not abandoned the men.

And imo, any general who strongly feels that he cannot win, should leave and keep his army to fight for another day. So even if we cannot know sure that he would have lost, the strong likelyhood makes it justified in my eyes. Better than to risk it and lose the entire army.

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
PS: There was no possible way to retreat based on what? I'm no achient military strategist, but certainly even in those times they could put escape plans into the battle plan.

Not really no. The army in the valley could not have escaped in an orderly fashion. They can't even make a shield wall and charge for no reason whatsoever, let alone organize a retreat in the middle of the battle. Once they were in the valley, they could not escape. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 février 2011 - 07:18 .

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

No, we are not then. Before the battle, he thought that losing was a strong possibility, but not very likely to happen. That's during the battle that he came to realize this.

Here's what Gaider said.

The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain
knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would
say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy
clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain
still wasn't certain that he
would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could
have won the battle, he probably would have done so.

From that how do you interpret Loghain to believe retreat is "not very likely"? 

Why didn't Loghain share his planned withdraw with the king? 

Why does Gaider only think Loghain "probably" would have joined the battle if he thought he would have won? 

And imo, any general who strongly feels that he cannot win, should leave and keep his army to fight for another day. So even if we cannot know sure that he would have lost, the strong likelyhood makes it justified in my eyes. Better than to risk it and lose the entire army.

And imo, any General who feels so strongly the battle will go bad as to make plans in secret to abandon the troops shouldn't commit his own troops to the battle plan.

Not really no. The army in the valley could not have escaped in an orderly fashion. They can't even make a shield wall and charge for no reason whatsoever, let alone organize a retreat in the middle of the battle. Once they were in the valley, they could not escape. 

Well, we agree it's hard to escape when no escape is worked into the battle plan.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 20 février 2011 - 07:33 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
Here's what Gaider said.

The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain
knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would
say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy
clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain
still wasn't certain that he
would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could
have won the battle, he probably would have done so.

From that how do you interpret Loghain to believe retreat is "not very likely"?

He said Loghain knew it wasn't going to be easy anymore. Where does that say that he knew that it's going to be extremily difficult, thus very likely taht he will have to retreat?

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
Why didn't Loghain share his planned withdraw with the king?

You mean the idiot glory monger Cailan who wouldn't possibly fathom the idea of a retreat? He can't even imagine not fighting on the frontlines, or even to wait for Eamon's forces. What do you think he would say if told that they should retreat?

At this moment, Loghain should have gotten rid of him.

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
Why does Gaider only think Loghain "probably" would have joined the battle if he thought he would have won? 

Because he doesn't want to put absolutes?

If you really want to play semantics, instead of focus on the gist of what he is saying then:

Probably: "in all likelihood; very likely"
"with considerable certainty; without much doubt"

Where's the problem?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 février 2011 - 07:40 .

[Glorfindel709]

@KoP



I do question the inability of a strategic retreat. Especially with how many people we know did get away from Ostagar that were not part of Loghains troops (Wynne, Uldred, the guy who gives the RtO quest) It would have been difficult, but surely running back up towards the fortress could have been a reasonable escape/holding action

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

@KoP

I do question the inability of a strategic retreat. Especially with how many people we know did get away from Ostagar that were not part of Loghains troops (Wynne, Uldred, the guy who gives the RtO quest) It would have been difficult, but surely running back up towards the fortress could have been a reasonable escape/holding action

Individual retreats / desertions. I am talking about an organized retreat. How can they go back up to the fortress from the valley without being caught up by the darkspawn?
I don't have the map of Ostagar with me, but even had they gone towards the fortress, then what? Ostagar is designed to hold enemies in the valley. It does not seem to have that many fortifications for it to withstand a siege.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 février 2011 - 07:52 .

[Glorfindel709]

They've gotta go upwards to get into the main fortress. Archers and staircases and ramps limit their ability to swarm. *shrugs*

[KnightofPhoenix]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

They've gotta go upwards to get into the main fortress. Archers and staircases and ramps limit their ability to swarm. *shrugs*

That's assuming that it's an easy way to go from the valley up to the fortress without the darkspawn cutting them down (and Ostagar doesn't seem to have that many fortications anyhow. It isn't deisgned for that. It's designed to keep the enemy in the valley). And assuming that they have enough  supplies in the fortress itself to be able to withstand a protracted siege.

I think it's very unlikely.

[Glorfindel709]

Oh I wasnt thinking in the area of a siege. My plan was more in the realm of staggered retreats, holding the ramps and staircases for as long as possible while as many men as can be found make their way out of the area and head either east towards the Brecilian Forest and Gwaren or North towards Lothering and the Imperial Highway.

[KnightofPhoenix]

We don't have a map to know for sure just how deep the valley went and as such if it's possible. All this speculative. I wish we had a detailed map of the entire area, but we don't, so we can't really know. And apparently Fereldans don't understand the concept of a shield wall and their use of longswords makes formation fighting virtually hopeless, so I am not sure they could pull it off regardless.

Maybe Costin, who is more knowledgeable than me about warfare, can have an input on this.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 février 2011 - 08:14 .

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

He said Loghain knew it wasn't going to be easy anymore. Where does that say that he knew that it's going to be extremily difficult, thus very likely taht he will have to retreat?

I base that on...

- The fact that Loghain argued so strenuously against even participating in the battle. A "very likely" chance of success is actually ideal odds for a battle. Very seldom is success guaranteed, if ever.

- The fact that Loghain continuously makes comments like (paraphrasing) "Better hope you're not in the thick of battle" and if the the king doesn't listen to him then, "Then just pray" 

- The fact that Loghain went as far as he did to develop a secret, elaborate plan to abandon the king and not be blamed for it.

- In the context of what Gaider said, that Loghain wasn't "certain" (emphasis his) he would go through with it implies, "It was likely, but not certain." At least, that's how I read it.

Your turn. What is your basis for concluding Loghain thought success in the battle was very likely? 

You mean the idiot glory monger Cailan who wouldn't possibly fathom the idea of a retreat? He can't even imagine not fighting on the frontlines, or even to wait for Eamon's forces. What do you think he would say if told that they should retreat?

I'm assuming there's context somewhere stating he didn't want to wait for Eamon's forces? But that would be strange considering he was open to reinforcements from the Orlesians. But the point I was making is that Loghain's abandonment was a deception.

Because he doesn't want to put absolutes?

If you really want to play semantics, instead of focus on the gist of what he is saying then:

Probably: "in all likelihood; very likely"
"with considerable certainty; without much doubt"

Where's the problem?

The use of the word 'probably' seems to imply Loghain didn't really care too much about the final outcome on the king's side. I could be wrong, but I did find that wording to be interesting.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 20 février 2011 - 08:47 .

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Glorfindel709 wrote...

@KoP

I do question the inability of a strategic retreat. Especially with how many people we know did get away from Ostagar that were not part of Loghains troops (Wynne, Uldred, the guy who gives the RtO quest) It would have been difficult, but surely running back up towards the fortress could have been a reasonable escape/holding action

Individual retreats / desertions. I am talking about an organized retreat. How can they go back up to the fortress from the valley without being caught up by the darkspawn?
I don't have the map of Ostagar with me, but even had they gone towards the fortress, then what? Ostagar is designed to hold enemies in the valley. It does not seem to have that many fortifications for it to withstand a siege.

Again, you're assessing the ability of a retreat from a battle plan that doesn't factor in that contingency.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Loghain had his withdraw preplanned to the point that joining the battle was actually a plan B.

No, more like withdrawing from the battle was plan B. He was setting up a confrontation with Cailan, this much we know. We don't know exactly what this confrontation was about, but it was likely to be a mix of his infidelity and plans to divorce Anora, as well as Cailan's excessive love and trust of the orlesians. Obviously, Cailan would need to be alive and well for such a confrontation. Retreat was Loghain's plan B.

During our time in Ostagar, we see Loghain repeatedly trying to argue Cailan down. Had he planned on retreating in the first place, he would not have bothered. He was holding out on the faint hope that Cailan would grow up and see what an idiot he was being.

If Loghain sets himself up as regent then he may want to let his own messengers know, who refer to him as "King Loghain" 

he simply needs to pick better messangers who have a clue about what the difference between a regent and king is. Everyone else in game refers to him as regent.

[phantomdragoness]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

No, more like withdrawing from the battle was plan B. He was setting up a confrontation with Cailan, this much we know. We don't know exactly what this confrontation was about, but it was likely to be a mix of his infidelity and plans to divorce Anora, as well as Cailan's excessive love and trust of the orlesians. Obviously, Cailan would need to be alive and well for such a confrontation. Retreat was Loghain's plan B.

I thought Loghain did not know about Cailan's quote, unquote "affair" until we returned to Ostagar and found the letters?


I let Loghain live for a few reasons. For one, he is an experienced general and I figured he would be of better use alive rather than dead. Also, it may not have been the best plan, but what Loghain did is what he believed to be the best for Ferelden. This man - no, symbol - is willing to do ANYTHING for his homeland, and that is the Grey Warden's soul purpose. He is the best of men, and the worst. As for my Warden, all she wanted to do was end the Blight and get the Wardens back on their feet. She saw Loghain as a great addition to the order, and it also saved him from Alistair's vengeance. (Of course, Alistair had good reason to be angry, but he stewed for so long about the battled in Ostagar, his definition of justice sort of turned into revenge. There is a very thin line between revenge and justice, IMO. But I digress - sometimes I put thoughts down as they come.) But I figure this argument has been said before. So.

But after talking with him and such, I really can't kill him in other playthroughs. The one time I did (because Alistair just had that God-awful evil look), I cringed. I guess I am just not that kind of person. So, my emotions were the reason why I let Loghain live the first time. Then after going through the conversations and reading the book...yeah.