764 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
Your turn. What is your basis for concluding Loghain thought success in the battle was very likely?

For a simple reason, he remained at Ostagar. If he thought it was very likely a loss, he would not have stayed. At RtO, he says that the men he left were his men and that he knew their names and their families. He would not put them in harms way deliberately if he thought that the battle was unwinnable.

Loghain was not strenously against joining the battle. He was simply not optimistic and was hoping that Cailan would start seeing sense.

All you have said shows that Loghain is not optimistic about the battle and is annoyed at Cailan's naivity. That does not mean that he thinks it was very likely going to be a disaster.

I'm assuming there's context somewhere stating he didn't want to wait for Eamon's forces? But that would be strange considering he was open to reinforcements from the Orlesians. But the point I was making is that Loghain's abandonment was a deception.

A necessary deception.
There was no context other than Cailan not wanting to share glory with Eamon.

The use of the word 'probably' seems to imply Loghain didn't really care too much about the final outcome on the king's side. I could be wrong, but I did find that wording to be interesting.

You're wrong, that's not what probably means.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 février 2011 - 03:45 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Again, you're assessing the ability of a retreat from a battle plan that doesn't factor in that contingency.

Because you think with a battle plan, everything is possible?

Then tell me, how do you think it should have been planned?
Since none of us are experts and since we do not have sufficient knowledge and maps about the terrina...etc, this excercize is futile.

[JFarr74]

Loghain was doing what he thought was best for Ferelden, even if he had a horrible way of showing it. It is not like he wants Ferelden to fall to the Blight. I believe he deserves a chance to atone for what he has done.

[JFarr74]

Even though Alistair leaves the Grey Wardens if you recruit Loghain, he will have to leave the Wardens anyway to become king, as shown in Awakening (one of the dialogue options is telling Alistair that he may need to come back to the Wardens after all).

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
For a simple reason, he remained at Ostagar. If he thought it was very likely a loss, he would not have stayed. At RtO, he says that the men he left were his men and that he knew their names and their families. He would not put them in harms way deliberately if he thought that the battle was unwinnable.

Loghain was not strenously against joining the battle. He was simply not optimistic and was hoping that Cailan would start seeing sense.

All you have said shows that Loghain is not optimistic about the battle and is annoyed at Cailan's naivity. That does not mean that he thinks it was very likely going to be a disaster.

First of all (once again), I am not claiming Loghain thought the battle was unwinnable. I claimed he thought losing was the likely outcome, which is quite a differnt thing.

Second, we need to establish which claim you were making. Was Loghain pessimistic about the upcoming battle, or did he think success was very likely? Because in the coarse of this debate you have claimed both.

And the argument that I'm making is he should NOT have remained at Ostagar. He already did make secret plans based on his pessimism, and those plans were to abandon the king and avoid blame. If he was that pessimistic he should have manned up, refused to (pretend) to be committed to the battle and faced the consequences.

A necessary deception.
There was no context other than Cailan not wanting to share glory with Eamon.

What specific line are you referring to? 

You're wrong, that's not what probably means.

Yes, I know that's not the definition of 'probably.' But the fact that Gaider said Loghain "probably" would have joined the battle if he thought doing so would have won is telling us something deeper IMO. Why not just say, "In my mind if Loghain had thought joining the the battle would have one, he would have done so."? Of course, it could have just been a poor choice of words.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 20 février 2011 - 07:42 .

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Again, you're assessing the ability of a retreat from a battle plan that doesn't factor in that contingency.

Because you think with a battle plan, everything is possible?

Then tell me, how do you think it should have been planned?
Since none of us are experts and since we do not have sufficient knowledge and maps about the terrina...etc, this excercize is futile.

I agree. And yet, you said very difinitively that it would have been impossible. Contingency plans for breaking contact is basic and fundamental. All I said is making contingency plans in secret to abandon the king was the wrong way to go about it and was a deception. If he felt so strongly the fight could go wrong, he just have left out of protest before the battle, or worked out a retreat plan with the king.

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
Second, we need to establish which claim you were making. Was Loghain pessimistic about the upcoming battle, or did he think success was very likely? Because in the coarse of this debate you have claimed both.

No, evidently you are not understanding what I am saying and trying to impose a false dichotomy, between thinking that the battle is most likely lost or most likely winnable. I am saying he was in between. He wasn't optimistic about the battle, aka he didn't think it would be easy, but he still thought it was winnable, until the battle. 
He thought success was likely before, not very likely which implies ease.

The way your argument works is that you assume that someone either has to think that a battle is very likely winnable or very likely not. That's not the case.
Loghain doesn't need to think that defeat was very likely to plan for a retreat as plan B. .

What specific line are you referring to?

"Eamon just wants in on the glory".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 février 2011 - 07:51 .

[Glorfindel709]

Honestly, were I in Loghains position, I probably would have chosen the same path. Anyone looking at that battle had to have known that it was absolutely impossible for them to win, even if Loghain had tried the flanking maneuver. There were too many Darkspawn on the field, the Golden Ponce ordered a charge from a perfectly defensible choke point, and the Darkspawn siege engines took out the balistas and archers on the high points that could have been used to thin the ranks of the more powerful darkspawn before they hit the lines.

[Glorfindel709]

Also, I love your avy, KoP.

[USArmyParatrooper]

On the previous page you said Loghain thought that retreat was, "not very likely to happen." I think it's reasonable to conclude you believe the inverse, that success is very likely. And so I asked (at the top of the page): "What is your basis for concluding Loghain thought success in the battle was very likely?" to which you answered, "For one simple reason,....."

But even if your position is that Loghain was in the middle, where he thought the battle has an equal chance to go either way, he STILL felt so strongly it could go bad that he made plans in secret to abandon the king and shift blame for doing so.

My point is when he gets to that point it's time for him to force Cailan's hand and make his stand (before) the battle.

Edit: Obviously he was more than willing to defy the king. He just wanted to do so in a way that he personally can't be held accountable.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 20 février 2011 - 08:08 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

On the previous page you said Loghain thought that retreat was, "not very likely to happen." I think it's reasonable to conclude you believe the inverse, that success is very likely.

No, that's not what I meant.

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
But even if your position is that Loghain was in the middle, where he thought the battle has an equal chance to go either way, he STILL felt so strongly it could go bad that he made plans in secret to abandon the king and shift blame for doing so.

No, that does not imply that he felt very strongly about it. It's a contingency plan. No general in his right mind would go into the battle without planning for the possibility to retreat, that's first. In secret, because Cailan is a moron. 

What you are saying is that: Loghain planning for a retreat in secret = he felt so strongly that the battle would go wrong.
Not necessarily. If he felt so strongly about it, he would not have went in in the first place.

Furthermore, Loghain may have feared that if he forced his hand on Cailan, Cailan would respond with the Orlesians (we already see him doing this during the war council). Cailan was essentially threatening Loghain to bring the Orlesians if they weren't going to fight at Ostagar.

Now were I in Loghain's position, I would have eliminated the brat. So if you want to judge him for his failure to realize how idiotic Cailan is, then go ahead. 

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No, that does not imply that he felt very strongly about it. It's a contingency plan. No general in his right mind would go into the battle without planning for the possibility to retreat, that's first. In secret, because Cailan is a moron. 

What you are saying is that: Loghain planning for a retreat in secret = he felt so strongly that the battle would go wrong.
Not necessarily. If he felt so strongly about it, he would not have went in in the first place.

Furthermore, Loghain may have feared that if he forced his hand on Cailan, Cailan would respond with the Orlesians (we already see him doing this during the war council). Cailan was essentially threatening Loghain to bring the Orlesians if they weren't going to fight at Ostagar.

Now were I in Loghain's position, I would have eliminated the brat. So if you want to judge him for his failure to realize how idiotic Cailan is, then go ahead.

"I don't suppose you'll be riding into the thick of battle with the rest of your fellows, will you?" 
I hope not!
"Hmm, you're wiser than you look" 

• Loghain: "Pray our king proves amenable to wisdom, if you're the praying sort."
• Warden: "And if he doesn't?"
• Loghain: "Then simply pray."

So dramatic! I think it's abundantly clear Loghain thought the battle wasn't going to go well. Now, you're free to speculate that Loghain had a secret tuck-tail, abandon the king and run plan set up for every battle at Ostagar. But then there is absolutely nothing to suggest as much, and I can make all sorts of other speculative statements that are in no way backed by anything in the game.

[KnightofPhoenix]

That is not proof of what you are suggesting. You are a Warden recruit, Loghain is annoyed at Cailan and tired of  overglorifying them. You come here and show that you are not a reckless idiot. He is impressed that you are indeed not. This in no way proves what you are saying. Remember what he says at the Landsmeet, he thought you were a child like Cailan wanting to play at War. That's the idea he has on Warden recruits. 

You are grasping at straws, trying to literally interpret every single word, to come to the conclusion that Loghain thought the battle was most likely lost, when it's not clear at all and quite the opposite of what Gaider said. If Loghain thought that losing was very likely, he would not have remained, just like he retreated during the battle because he came to the conclusion that losing was very likely. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 février 2011 - 10:14 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

phantomdragoness wrote...

I thought Loghain did not know about Cailan's quote, unquote "affair" until we returned to Ostagar and found the letters?

I don't think he knew specifics, just perhaps rumors and info from Anora. The guy outside the king's tent suggests Cailan and Loghain were arguing about the queen, Anora. So it stands to reason Loghain at least suspected or had sufficent reason to to bring it up. I can't think of any other reason to argue over Anora. I'm pretty sure Loghain knew about Cailan's affairs in a general sense, as I suspect Anora would have told him at some point.

I don't think Loghain knew Cailan was planning to divorce Anora and marry Celene, because if that was the case, Loghain would have probably killed him the moment he found out.

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That is not proof of what you are suggesting. You are a Warden recruit, Loghain is annoyed at Cailan and tired of  overglorifying them. You come here and show that you are not a reckless idiot. He is impressed that you are indeed not. This in no way proves what you are saying. Remember what he says at the Landsmeet, he thought you were a child like Cailan wanting to play at War. That's the idea he has on Warden recruits. 

You are grasping at straws, trying to literally interpret every single word, to come to the conclusion that Loghain thought the battle was most likely lost, when it's not clear at all and quite the opposite of what Gaider said. If Loghain thought that losing was very likely, he would not have remained, just like he retreated during the battle because he came to the conclusion that losing was very likely. 

Oh, I'm the one grasping at straws? LOL

And I suppose his comment, "Then simply pray" (if the king won't listen to him) means he wants you to accept Andraste as your lord and savior. It is clear throughout the entire beginning that Loghain has a horrible feeling about the battle coming up. I can't believe you're even questioning that. Hell, YOU even said he was pessimistic about it.

http://dictionary.re...rowse/pessimism
1. the tendency to see, anticipate, or emphasize only bad or undesirable outcomes, results, conditions, problems, etc.: His pessimism about the future of our country depresses me.

Modifié par USArmyParatrooper, 20 février 2011 - 10:30 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
Oh, I'm the one grasping at straws? LOL

Yes, taking things word for word and forgetting the context and what's happening.

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
And I suppose his comment, "Then simply pray" (if the king won't listen to him) means he wants you to accept Andraste as your lord and savior. It is clear throughout the entire beginning that Loghain has a horrible feeling about the battle coming up. I can't believe you're even questioning that. Hell, YOU even said he was pessimistic about it.

Semantics, that's not how I meant it. I was wrong, I choose another word, happy?

About praying. And that is supposed to show that he thinks the battle is very likely going to lose? You are talking about a man who considered abolishing the Chantry from Ferelden (TST). You really think that he literraly believed that the battle was going to go so horribly that the only recourse is praying? Come on.  He was clearly tired, and busy and doesn't want to waste his time with you. Nor is he obligated to precisely tell you what he feels about the battle. It's a manner of speech. We say in God's willing in practically everythign we do. Is that supposed to mean something?

It's not clear at all. He doesn't want to be in the battle, but is being arm twisted. He has a bad feeling about it. But there is no indication at all that he thinks it was very likely going to be a disaster. Gaider said if he thought so, he would have left. He didnt' think it was easy, that doesn't mean he thinks the battle will be horrible and he did not anticipate that many darkspawn as Gaider said. In RTO he says that he knew the menand their names. He would not have put them in harms way knowing that the battle was most likely lost. And he doesn't say that to earn your sympathy, he says right befoe that he doens't regret his decision.

But I am done. Obviously, you've already reached a conclusion and will keep trying to twist words to make it all fit. There is no point at all in talking about it. Believe what you will.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 février 2011 - 10:46 .

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
Oh, I'm the one grasping at straws? LOL

Yes, taking things word for word and forgetting the context and what's happening.

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
And I suppose his comment, "Then simply pray" (if the king won't listen to him) means he wants you to accept Andraste as your lord and savior. It is clear throughout the entire beginning that Loghain has a horrible feeling about the battle coming up. I can't believe you're even questioning that. Hell, YOU even said he was pessimistic about it.

Semantics, that's not how I meant it. I was wrong, I choose another word, happy?

About praying. And that is supposed to show that he thinks the battle is very likely going to lose? You are talking about a man who considered abolishing the Chantry from Ferelden (TST). You really think that he literraly believed that the battle was going to go so horribly that the only recourse is praying? Come on.  He was clearly tired, and busy and doesn't want to waste his time with you. Nor is he obligated to precisely tell you what he feels about the battle. It's a manner of speech. We say in God's willing in practically everythign we do. Is that supposed to mean something?

It's not clear at all. He doesn't want to be in the battle, but is being arm twisted. He has a bad feeling about it. But there is no indication at all that he thinks it was very likely going to be a disaster. Gaider said if he thought so, he would have left. He didnt' think it was easy, that doesn't mean he thinks the battle will be horrible and he did not anticipate that many darkspawn as Gaider said. In RTO he says that he knew the menand their names. He would not have put them in harms way knowing that the battle was most likely lost. And he doesn't say that to earn your sympathy, he says right befoe that he doens't regret his decision.

But I am done. Obviously, you've already reached a conclusion and will keep trying to twist words to make it all fit. There is no point at all in talking about it. Believe what you will.

On the contrary, I'm considering exactly their context.
Loghain: "Pray our king proves amenable to wisdom, if you're the praying sort."
Warden: "And if he doesn't?"
Loghain: "Then simply pray."
[/list]This is in the context of Loghain's disagreements with Cailan about the upcoming battle. I think it's pretty obvious I was being sarcastic when I suggested his 'pray' remarks literally had religeous meaning. Obviously, "Then simply pray" was a statement that you're going to need it, considering what lies ahead.

If by "twisting words" you mean using the right meaning of words and in the right context, then yes. I'm twisting the hell out of them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
Obviously, "Then simply pray" was a statement that you're going to need it, considering what lies ahead.

Which does not mean that he thinks the battle is very likely to be lost, which is what you are suggesting. That's called jumping to conclusions.

That's like saying whenever you say good luck, it means you think that whatever you are going to do is very likely going to turn into a disaster.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 février 2011 - 12:29 .

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
Obviously, "Then simply pray" was a statement that you're going to need it, considering what lies ahead.

Which does not mean that he thinks the battle is very likely to be lost, which is what you are suggesting. That's called jumping to conclusions.

That's like saying whenever you say good luck, it means you think that whatever you are going to be is very likely turn into a disaster.

I'm sorry, but the two are not similar. "Good luck" is a common cliche' to mean, "I wish you well", whether it's pior to a game, job interview or anything else.

"Pray if you're the praying sort" followed by, "Then simply pray" cannot be chalked up to common words of courtesy. Those words in their context had much deeper severity and meaning.

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
I'm sorry, but the two are not similar. "Good luck" is a common cliche' to mean, "I wish you well", whether it's pior to a game, job interview or anything else.

"Pray if you're the praying sort" followed by, "Then simply pray" cannot be chalked up to common words of courtesy. Those words in their context had much deeper severity and meaning.

No one is saying he was not serious. But not to the point to mean that "omg, we are so going to die if the Maker doesn't save us!" or "we are very likely going to get f*cked", which is what you are saying.

Because once again, you think that that it's not possible for someone to have bad feelings about something, but yet still think that he can win.

If you really want to take the context int oaccount, consider that Loghain is tired, busy and annoyed at Cailan. Don't you think that would influence his choice of words?

[Addai]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

Honestly, were I in Loghains position, I probably would have chosen the same path. Anyone looking at that battle had to have known that it was absolutely impossible for them to win, even if Loghain had tried the flanking maneuver. There were too many Darkspawn on the field, the Golden Ponce ordered a charge from a perfectly defensible choke point, and the Darkspawn siege engines took out the balistas and archers on the high points that could have been used to thin the ranks of the more powerful darkspawn before they hit the lines.

It could have been won if the horde had been smaller.  If you could have gotten all or most of the darkspawn forces into the valley, Loghain's flanking maneuver would have been sound.  But there was no end of them, something you really think the Wardens would have sensed- but I gather the horde was massing underground.  That was not something anyone anticipated, though I'm sure it's part of what Loghain feared.

Something our Paratrooper friend seems unwilling to acknowledge is that it was Cailan who wanted their backs against the wall and the high-risk strategy of having the Wardens and himself massed in small space as bait.  Cailan didn't want a retreat plan because he was convinced that between the Warden legend and that of his own (his father was said to have incredible luck and I think Cailan believed that he was part of a "chosen lineage"), there was no way he could lose.  Loghain's plan was an accommadation to Cailan's stubbornness, and that is not something that even a refusal to commit his troops would have shaken Cailan from.  Cailan would simply have said "more glory for me" and kept on with his intent to get a big win.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 février 2011 - 12:58 .

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
I'm sorry, but the two are not similar. "Good luck" is a common cliche' to mean, "I wish you well", whether it's pior to a game, job interview or anything else.

"Pray if you're the praying sort" followed by, "Then simply pray" cannot be chalked up to common words of courtesy. Those words in their context had much deeper severity and meaning.

No one is saying he was not serious. But not to the point to mean that "omg, we are so going to die if the Maker doesn't save us!" or "we are very likely going to get f*cked", which is what you are saying.

Because once again, you think that that it's not possible for someone to have bad feelings about something, but yet still think that he can win.

If you really want to take the context int oaccount, consider that Loghain is tired, busy and annoyed at Cailan. Don't you think that would influence his choice of words?

Taking everything into account, I think Loghain considered the entire battle to be foolish. Taking the totality of everything that took place, including Loghain's words on several occasions, Loghain's arguments with Cailan and Loghain's deception I think you can only draw one of two conclusions.

Either Loghain had malicious intent, or Loghain felt disaster was likely.

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
Taking everything into account, I think Loghain considered the entire battle to be foolish. Taking the totality of everything that took place, including Loghain's words on several occasions, Loghain's arguments with Cailan and Loghain's deception I think you can only draw one of two conclusions.

Either Loghain had malicious intent, or Loghain felt disaster was likely.

Nope, I don't.

The way I see it, Loghain is not optimistic about the battle, is annoyed at Cailan, doesn't think the battle is going to be easy, doesn't think the Wardens are that impressive, and that defeat was a strong possibility hence the retreat as plan B. Would rather not fight the battle, but Cailan was arm twisting him into it. But he still thought the battle could likely be won, hence why he went through with it and didn't insist on Uldred doing the signal (if he thought the battle was very likely lost, he would have insisted to have Uldred, his ally, do it in order to make sure that the beacon wouldn't be lit, which didn't happen).   And that's until the battle where he saw that the darkspawn were much more numerous than anticipated, then he realized that the battle was very likely lost and decides to retreat.

And now, I think we've reached a dead end. Agree to disagree? Or shall we continue beating the dead horse?

[USArmyParatrooper]

Addai67 wrote...

Glorfindel709 wrote...

Honestly, were I in Loghains position, I probably would have chosen the same path. Anyone looking at that battle had to have known that it was absolutely impossible for them to win, even if Loghain had tried the flanking maneuver. There were too many Darkspawn on the field, the Golden Ponce ordered a charge from a perfectly defensible choke point, and the Darkspawn siege engines took out the balistas and archers on the high points that could have been used to thin the ranks of the more powerful darkspawn before they hit the lines.

It could have been won if the horde had been smaller.  If you could have gotten all or most of the darkspawn forces into the valley, Loghain's flanking maneuver would have been sound.  But there was no end of them, something you really think the Wardens would have sensed- but I gather the horde was massing underground.  That was not something anyone anticipated, though I'm sure it's part of what Loghain feared.

Something our Paratrooper friend seems unwilling to acknowledge is that it was Cailan who wanted their backs against the wall and the high-risk strategy of having the Wardens and himself massed in small space as bait.  Cailan didn't want a retreat plan because he was convinced that between the Warden legend and that of his own (his father was said to have incredible luck and I think Cailan believed that he was part of a "chosen lineage"), there was no way he could lose.  Loghain's plan was an accommadation to Cailan's stubbornness, and that is not something that even a refusal to commit his troops would have shaken Cailan from.  Cailan would simply have said "more glory for me" and kept on with his intent to get a big win.

Or possibly it could have been won anyway if Loghain hadn't deserted. Gaider left the hypothetical outcome open, and the writers threw in some dialogue that shows some people believed that was the case.

The darkspawn certainly outnumbered the defense forces; however, it has always been true that it's much easier to defend that it is to go on the offensive. Going on the offensive requires a much greater amount of force (which they had).

Whether or not Loghain's judgment was correct is not defined.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Also, Addai67, I do not by any means put Cailan on a pedestal.



I think Cailan was too clouded by thoughts of glory and legend, whereas Loghain was clouded by hate and paranoia. It consumed him and drove him to carry out despicable acts.