764 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Glorfindel709 wrote...

Ostagar was a doomed battle, every man on the field knew that when the *endless* Darkspawn horde came running out of the Kocari Wilds. A flanking manuever like the one Loghain planned requires him to get behind the enemy and crush them between the hammer of Loghains forces and the anvil that was supposed to be the Golden Ponces' forces at Ostagar. But when the line of the horde extends endlessly out of the forest, you cant exactly get behind them. They have no mounts so they couldnt even do a line cavalry charge to sweep through the line.

And of course Duncan and the Golden Ponce act all confident at the start of the battle, they're surrounded by their troops and have to keep morale up, otherwise they'll quit the field and disappear in a full scale desertion. Not to mention the GPs' overconfidence shining through "The Blight ends here!!!! *Oh **** face* A-archers!"

As far as Ostagar being a doomed battle, at least, that's how you see it in your play throughs. What would have happened if Loghain didn't deceive the king is purely speculative, as it has never been defined.

It's pretty obvious, given the cutscene. Though you may want to see it otherwise. As for "deceiving" Cailan.......the fool signed his own death warrant when ignoring Ferelden's greatest general's advice. This is war. Not promising to show up for tea: 

[antigravitycat]

That "endless Darkspawn horde" is more a cinematic element if you ask me. The game makers left out many things at one end and at the other end they added tons of stuff. You see many darkspawn torches, it looks epic. In Ostagar camp level you see like 10 fighters and 5 mages. In the battle scene you see hundreds of arrows being fired in one volley from a mass of archers. Very contradicting and open. Like I said there is much much just left out and it is open for debate. The game itself gives very contradicting impressions I have to admit. From what the game gives us, very much open for speculation, yes.

But remember when Loghain orders to retreat and Ser Cauthrien objects? If you fought her during endgame you know that she can give your party a hell of a beating, that party that btw. makes the difference in the battle of Denerim and is able to slay the horde and the Archdemon. So you can easily imagine that Ser Cautrien and a few of those Loghain elite fighters she has can easily take out an army of Darkspawn.

That's just one thing, but keep in mind that Loghain has lots of those elites he pulls away from the field. I mean they would have made the difference in the battle.

[LobselVith8]

antigravitycat wrote...

That "endless Darkspawn horde" is more a cinematic element if you ask me. The game makers left out many things at one end and at the other end they added tons of stuff. You see many darkspawn torches, it looks epic. In Ostagar camp level you see like 10 fighters and 5 mages. In the battle scene you see hundreds of arrows being fired in one volley from a mass of archers. Very contradicting and open. Like I said there is much much just left out and it is open for debate. The game itself gives very contradicting impressions I have to admit. From what the game gives us, very much open for speculation, yes.
But remember when Loghain orders to retreat and Ser Cauthrien objects? If you fought her during endgame you know that she can give your party a hell of a beating, that party that btw. makes the difference in the battle of Denerim and is able to slay the horde and the Archdemon. So you can easily imagine that Ser Cautrien and a few of those Loghain elite fighters she has can easily take out an army of Darkspawn.
That's just one thing, but keep in mind that Loghain has lots of those elites he pulls away from the field. I mean they would have made the difference in the battle.

There's another area of the camp you can't get to and I don't see why the cinematic scene wouldn't have more troops than we see at the one area of camp we're restricted to. If there was an ocean of darkspawn and it's been confirmed that he did have a vantage point to see this, it makes sense that Loghain wouldn't risk his entire army to fight a battle that couldn't be won. Also, Duncan outright says there are only seven mages permitted to stop the Blight at Ostagar.

[USArmyParatrooper]

antigravitycat wrote...

That "endless Darkspawn horde" is more a cinematic element if you ask me. The game makers left out many things at one end and at the other end they added tons of stuff. You see many darkspawn torches, it looks epic. In Ostagar camp level you see like 10 fighters and 5 mages. In the battle scene you see hundreds of arrows being fired in one volley from a mass of archers. Very contradicting and open. Like I said there is much much just left out and it is open for debate. The game itself gives very contradicting impressions I have to admit. From what the game gives us, very much open for speculation, yes.
But remember when Loghain orders to retreat and Ser Cauthrien objects? If you fought her during endgame you know that she can give your party a hell of a beating, that party that btw. makes the difference in the battle of Denerim and is able to slay the horde and the Archdemon. So you can easily imagine that Ser Cautrien and a few of those Loghain elite fighters she has can easily take out an army of Darkspawn.
That's just one thing, but keep in mind that Loghain has lots of those elites he pulls away from the field. I mean they would have made the difference in the battle.

Very well put, and you're exactly on point. As I said, we're not looking at video footage from an actual battle. We're looking at animation, where the writers are trying do two thing - write a story and entertain. I really didn't get at all from that cut scene that they were trying to portray a battle that was already lost. They were trying to create one that was very large scale and dramatic. And as Gaider said, it is up to the player to decide if the battle could have been won without Loghain's betrayel.

[Persephone]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

antigravitycat wrote...

That "endless Darkspawn horde" is more a cinematic element if you ask me. The game makers left out many things at one end and at the other end they added tons of stuff. You see many darkspawn torches, it looks epic. In Ostagar camp level you see like 10 fighters and 5 mages. In the battle scene you see hundreds of arrows being fired in one volley from a mass of archers. Very contradicting and open. Like I said there is much much just left out and it is open for debate. The game itself gives very contradicting impressions I have to admit. From what the game gives us, very much open for speculation, yes.
But remember when Loghain orders to retreat and Ser Cauthrien objects? If you fought her during endgame you know that she can give your party a hell of a beating, that party that btw. makes the difference in the battle of Denerim and is able to slay the horde and the Archdemon. So you can easily imagine that Ser Cautrien and a few of those Loghain elite fighters she has can easily take out an army of Darkspawn.
That's just one thing, but keep in mind that Loghain has lots of those elites he pulls away from the field. I mean they would have made the difference in the battle.

Very well put, and you're exactly on point. As I said, we're not looking at video footage from an actual battle. We're looking at animation, where the writers are trying do two thing - write a story and entertain. I really didn't get at all from that cut scene that they were trying to portray a battle that was already lost. They were trying to create one that was very large scale and dramatic. And as Gaider said, it is up to the player to decide if the battle could have been won without Loghain's betrayel.

Without his retreat, you mean. Gosh, you really loathe Loghain, don't you? :innocent: And game mechanics (Cauthrien being boss level) has nothing to do with warfare. Nothing.

Modifié par Persephone, 21 février 2011 - 05:36 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I'll be waiting for a military mastermind to explain to me how you can flank this

[USArmyParatrooper]

Persephone wrote...
Without his retreat, you mean. Gosh, you really loathe Loghain, don't you? :innocent: And game mechanics (Cauthrien being boss level) has nothing to do with warfare. Nothing.

It was a betrayel, although you could (and do) argue that it was a justified one. If not, he would not have gone to such great lengths to cover his tracks (i.e. the wardens killed the king, wanting to control the tower, etc.) He could have simply been honest about what happened.

[LobselVith8]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Very well put, and you're exactly on point. As I said, we're not looking at video footage from an actual battle. We're looking at animation, where the writers are trying do two thing - write a story and entertain. I really didn't get at all from that cut scene that they were trying to portray a battle that was already lost. They were trying to create one that was very large scale and dramatic. And as Gaider said, it is up to the player to decide if the battle could have been won without Loghain's betrayel.

Betrayal? On one hand, we have a general of renown, and on the other, we have a man who will betray all of Ferelden to Orlais with a marriage to Empress Celene I that would put the nation in the same position it was thirty years ago.

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'll be waiting for a military mastermind to explain to me how you can flank this

Loghain's forces forces stretch all the way up the mountain. You can't see them because they're in the hiding in the woodline awating the signal.

[Persephone]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Without his retreat, you mean. Gosh, you really loathe Loghain, don't you? :innocent: And game mechanics (Cauthrien being boss level) has nothing to do with warfare. Nothing.

It was a betrayel, although you could (and do) argue that it was a justified one. If not, he would not have gone to such great lengths to cover his tracks (i.e. the wardens killed the king, wanting to control the tower, etc.) He could have simply been honest about what happened.

It couldn't POSSIBLY be that he actually FELT this way and thought he was right? Given how the Wardens committed treason before and almost killed King Maric....and the delayed signal? Not very far fetched. What do his dealings with Uldred have to do with his decision to retreat at Ostagar?

[Persephone]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'll be waiting for a military mastermind to explain to me how you can flank this

Loghain's forces forces stretch all the way up the mountain. You can't see them because they're in the hiding in the woodline awating the signal.

Oh really? I'd like some evidence for that idea. Never mind that it's still impossible to do it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'll be waiting for a military mastermind to explain to me how you can flank this

Loghain's forces forces stretch all the way up the mountain. You can't see them because they're in the hiding in the woodline awating the signal.

Not enough, numbers is not the only thing, it's positioning. In fact, positioning is MUCH more important than numbers, as history showed time and time again. Had he gone in there, the likely result would have been his flank getting hit, or a double envelopment maneuver.

[USArmyParatrooper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Very well put, and you're exactly on point. As I said, we're not looking at video footage from an actual battle. We're looking at animation, where the writers are trying do two thing - write a story and entertain. I really didn't get at all from that cut scene that they were trying to portray a battle that was already lost. They were trying to create one that was very large scale and dramatic. And as Gaider said, it is up to the player to decide if the battle could have been won without Loghain's betrayel.

Betrayal? On one hand, we have a general of renown, and on the other, we have a man who will betray all of Ferelden to Orlais with a marriage to Empress Celene I that would put the nation in the same position it was thirty years ago.

A general of renown? Tell me, does Loghain make good choices throughout the game? Because he sure doesn't seem to think so. In fact, he himself laments "how much wrong" he's done. Has it been written what would have been the outcome of that marriage? Are you accepting Loghain's judgment on the matter, a man "renown" for his misjudgments by the end of the game? 

[USArmyParatrooper]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'll be waiting for a military mastermind to explain to me how you can flank this

Loghain's forces forces stretch all the way up the mountain. You can't see them because they're in the hiding in the woodline awating the signal.

Not enough, numbers is not the only thing, it's positioning. In fact, positioning is MUCH more important than numbers, as history showed time and time again. Had he gone in there, the likely result would have been his flank getting hit, or a double envelopment maneuver.

What are you basing that on? By definition a flanking manouver comes from one of the sides (flanks) and essentially forms an L, so what positioning are you referring to?  Numbers are extremely important, more so back then than today.

[KnightofPhoenix]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...
What are you basing that on? By definition a flanking manouver comes from one of the sides (flanks) and essentially forms an L, so what positioning are you referring to?  Numbers are extremely important, more so back then than today.

Yea, tell that to Hannibal who destroyed an army twice his size at Cannae. Or Paulinus who defeated an army 5 times his size. No it's not numbers, it's positioning that made them win.

What I am referring to, is that if he charged at the darkspawn flank, they still had many coming from the forest who would not have been caught in the flanking maneuvre, and would flank Loghain in turn. Thus, Loghain would be trapped between darkspawn armies.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 février 2011 - 05:55 .

[Persephone]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Very well put, and you're exactly on point. As I said, we're not looking at video footage from an actual battle. We're looking at animation, where the writers are trying do two thing - write a story and entertain. I really didn't get at all from that cut scene that they were trying to portray a battle that was already lost. They were trying to create one that was very large scale and dramatic. And as Gaider said, it is up to the player to decide if the battle could have been won without Loghain's betrayel.

Betrayal? On one hand, we have a general of renown, and on the other, we have a man who will betray all of Ferelden to Orlais with a marriage to Empress Celene I that would put the nation in the same position it was thirty years ago.

A general of renown? Tell me, does Loghain make good choices throughout the game? Because he sure doesn't seem to think so. In fact, he himself laments "how much wrong" he's done. Has it been written what would have been the outcome of that marriage? Are you accepting Loghain's judgment on the matter, a man "renown" for his misjudgments by the end of the game? 

Bad political choices have nothing to do with being a general of renown. Read "The Stolen Throne", for God's sake! And then tell me again that his judgment of Orlais retaking Ferelden is off the mark or that such a marriage would not be betraying everything King Maric ever fought for AND a betrayal of Ferelden. GEEZ!

[Glorfindel709]

I'm all for handing The Golden Ponce to the Orlesians. In a body bag,

[LobselVith8]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

A general of renown? Tell me, does Loghain make good choices throughout the game? Because he sure doesn't seem to think so. In fact, he himself laments "how much wrong" he's done.

He freed Ferelden from the Orlesian occupation, so he is a figure of great popularity, since everyone knows him as the Hero of River Dane. Making mistakes doesn't make Loghain evil.

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Has it been written what would have been the outcome of that marriage? 

It's easy to see what the outcome would be of Empress Celene I to King Cailan - a weak King handing over the entire nation of Ferelden so he can be called an Emperor. In a foolish move, Cailan would have allowed all of Ferelden to be enslaved to the Orlesians once again.

[Persephone]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

I'm all for handing The Golden Ponce to the Orlesians. In a body bag,

Well, I would not go THAT far. :devil:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
Bad political choices have nothing to do with being a general of renown. Read "The Stolen Throne", for God's sake! And then tell me again that his judgment of Orlais retaking Ferelden is off the mark or that such a marriage would not be betraying everything King Maric ever fought for AND a betrayal of Ferelden. GEEZ!

Cool down

http://t2.gstatic.co...o1XwwE0K-w1&t=1

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Bad political choices have nothing to do with being a general of renown. Read "The Stolen Throne", for God's sake! And then tell me again that his judgment of Orlais retaking Ferelden is off the mark or that such a marriage would not be betraying everything King Maric ever fought for AND a betrayal of Ferelden. GEEZ!

Cool down

http://t2.gstatic.co...o1XwwE0K-w1&t=1

Many thanks. My bloody temper......

[antigravitycat]

LobselVith8 wrote...

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

A general of renown? Tell me, does Loghain make good choices throughout the game? Because he sure doesn't seem to think so. In fact, he himself laments "how much wrong" he's done.

He freed Ferelden from the Orlesian occupation, so he is a figure of great popularity, since everyone knows him as the Hero of River Dane. Making mistakes doesn't make Loghain evil.

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Has it been written what would have been the outcome of that marriage? 

It's easy to see what the outcome would be of Empress Celene I to King Cailan - a weak King handing over the entire nation of Ferelden so he can be called an Emperor. In a foolish move, Cailan would have allowed all of Ferelden to be enslaved to the Orlesians once again.

Is it easy to see? Not really. We are discussing here with arguments based on the spare hints the game gives us.
I for my part think a fusion of Ferelden with Orlais would have been beneficial. One of the examples for the benefits of Orlesian rule is Amaranthine, like said ingame, admitting this to a Fereldan would be unwise, for they would argue against that. And calling it enslavement is a bit harsh don't you think. I would say it is just a shift of power. Of course the people who had power will clearly argue in another way. The Fereldan Kings wanted to have their power back, fought the Orlesians. All but intrigues and plots for power if you ask me. For the Fereldan people I would say it makes little difference who rules. But that is just my view. At what we learn from the correspondance letters between Cailan and Celene, they were very intimate. You could expect that maybe a partnership between them would have been more equal than the one between Cailan and Anora. Anora is powerhungry and wants to preserve her status at all cost. IMHO it would be more foolish to stay married with such a person. Anyway, it is clear that that fear of Orlais is burned into Loghains mind. Rather paranoid, even at the Landsmeet he still does not realize the real threat. Ignorant, neurotic, hypocrite, traitor, reckless to his own people. You are better off with Celene and the Orlesians. 40 years is 40 years after the war. 40 years can change much you know. There was a change in leadership in Orlais and Ferelden, at the head of the nation two rulers (Cailan/Celene) who are more open minded and not that much entwined and consumed by the enemy status their fathers have.
An interesting concept would be that Loghain knew about Cailan and Celene and he wets his pants thinking of Anora being cast off the throne, and with her he would lose his status of course. And that because of those damn Orlesians. Oh my yeah that is of course a reason for a Noble in the world of Thedas to abandon his King and take out fellow nobles like Arl Eamon or the whole Couslands.

[Addai]

You're kidding, right? You would actually argue that the Fereldan people were better off under harsh occupation than ruling themselves? Tell me you haven't read The Stolen Throne and still can maintain this with a straight face.



Loghain's reaction at RtO indicates he didn't know about the marriage plans. He was upset with Cailan for inviting chevaliers into the country.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I would love to go back and copy paste a post I made a few weeks ago that argues that the union would be disastrous for Ferelden, but good for Orlais. But I can't be bothered, I don't even remember where I posted it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 21 février 2011 - 06:57 .

[Curlain]

That's an interesting idea, would a union between Ferelden and Orlais have actually been a bad thing or possibly something positive for both nations, creating a more powerful nation out of said union, particularly if Celene and Calian were joint rulers (this has happened a few times in history, for example the House of Stuart becoming the royal house of both England and Scotland)

Edit: an important difference to remember in this situation is this wouldn't be an invasion and occupation, which was the situation in The Stolen Throne, but rather peaceful alliance of nations under one royal house.  So the situation that is presented in The Stolen Throne would not likely be the one following such a union.  Not necessarily saying it would be a good thing still, but in the grand scale of things it could be

Modifié par Curlain, 21 février 2011 - 06:59 .