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Should Loghain Live or Die?


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#476
KnightofPhoenix

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klarabella wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
And yet the former is clearly what we are dealing with in the case of Ferelden.  Unless you really want to make a case that culturally, the Fereldans are similar to Orlesians? Or historically? Or ethnically?

Yeah, strong nationalism in a country that simply chose to lose their own language.

*head->desk*


....You do realize that all human languages come from Dwarves right? Aka, they are all virtually the same.

You do realize that many people lost their languages and were influenced by conquering languages and they still were nationalistic?

#477
nos_astra

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Addai67 wrote...
And this makes them Orlesian?  Once you pick your head up, maybe you can explain that.

No, it only hints that Fereldans might be more willing to adapt than you are giving them credit for.

Amazon Queen may have a point, though, and I really have no clue about Irish history.

Modifié par klarabella, 22 février 2011 - 04:21 .


#478
nos_astra

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
....You do realize that all human languages come from Dwarves right? Aka, they are all virtually the same.

No, I don't realize this. I took this as a legend, rather than actual history.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
You do realize that many people lost their languages and were influenced by conquering languages and they still were nationalistic?

I realize that, but it's not the story behind Ferelden's language loss. They are using some kind of trade pidgin invented by the dwarves (happened before the Orlesian occupation). No conquering nations involved, as far as I know.

Gaider and his team just made that one up to explain why everyone is speaking the same language.

Modifié par klarabella, 22 février 2011 - 04:22 .


#479
KnightofPhoenix

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klarabella wrote...
Gaider and his team just made that one up to explain why everyone is speaking the same language.


And this is something we have to take into account. Language in Thedas is not as important as it is in RL, as everyone speaks the same language. Except when it comes to the Qunari. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 22 février 2011 - 04:24 .


#480
nos_astra

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Gaider and his team just made that one up to explain why everyone is speaking the same language.


And this is something we have to take into account. Language in Thedas is not as important as it is in RL, as everyone speaks the same language. Except when it comes to the Qunari.

That's not true, every nation has their own native language, except Ferelden.

#481
USArmyParatrooper

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One thing that is worth noting is that many countries have had bitter enemies that have later become staunch allies. And in global politics, 30 years is actually a really long time.



Also worth noting is that Loghain is eeeevil...x

#482
KnightofPhoenix

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klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Gaider and his team just made that one up to explain why everyone is speaking the same language.


And this is something we have to take into account. Language in Thedas is not as important as it is in RL, as everyone speaks the same language. Except when it comes to the Qunari.

That's not true, every nation has their own native language, except Ferelden.


What's the native language of Orlais? And Antiva?

All of them use a dwarven language.

#483
nos_astra

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
What's the native language of Orlais? And Antiva?

All of them use a dwarven language.

Yes, all of them know the Common Tongue, which is a dwarven language. But all the other nations still have a native language, while Ferelden lost theirs.

Modifié par klarabella, 22 février 2011 - 05:29 .


#484
Addai

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klarabella wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
And this makes them Orlesian?  Once you pick your head up, maybe you can explain that.

No, it only hints that Fereldans might be more willing to adapt than you are giving them credit for.

Amazon Queen may have a point, though, and I really have no clue about Irish history.

And yet despite being occupied by both Tevinter and Orlais, they have a clear sense of their boundaries, their particular traditions (such as the Landsmeet and mabari), national symbols such as the birthplace of Andraste, a common Alamanni heritage and they certainly do not seem to find it difficult to distinguish themselves from Orlais.  As others have pointed out, the common tongue originated with dwarves and was adopted for convenience.  I'm sure that it helped when the various Alamanni clans were coming together to form Ferelden.

#485
Addai

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klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
What's the native language of Orlais? And Antiva?

All of them use a dwarven language.

Yes, all of them know the Common Tongue, which is a dwarven language. But all the other nations still have a native language, while Ferelden lost theirs.

I don't recall- where is your source for this?

#486
nos_astra

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Addai67 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
What's the native language of Orlais? And Antiva?
All of them use a dwarven language.

Yes, all of them know the Common Tongue, which is a dwarven language. But all the other nations still have a native language, while Ferelden lost theirs.

I don't recall- where is your source for this?

I thought the Orlesians still spoke their own language during the occupation. Isn't there a situation when Maric or whoever is the POV character can't understand them?

Leliana also feels the need to explain to you why she speaks your language. Zevran constantly uses terms of endearment in Antivan in fanfiction (I assumed he does so in the game, too).

We know that Tevinter has its own language.

And I remember that someone linked to a post David Gaider had made to explain what the common tongue is and why it has replaced the native tongue in Ferelden..

I 'm not sure, but haven't you yourself used Arabic as a stand-in for Rivaini?

#487
testing123

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Curlain wrote...
Modern countries are not necessarily a good example here, nationalism and national identity were foreign political concepts to the medieval mind, while an idea of being from a certain people existed, the idea of the nation state and nationalism would not appear until centuries later.  People opperated through various forms of the fedual system and through custom, through systems of duties, obligations and responsibities on all sides, and it was not uncommon to see a noble having lands in two different kingdoms (say in the Kingdom of England and that of France, which was how the Ango-Norman-Plantagent Kings formed the Angevian empire), and such nobles were not percieved as foriegn interlopers.  Even when kingship changed hands to someone of a foriegn nationality it did not in itself cause issue, the English did not necessarily resent William the Conquer because he was Norman-French (he did have  a claim to the throne, and they had worked well under Danish rulers like Canute) but because the incoming Normans replaced much of exist systems of rule and at times ignored established custom.  Whether Thedas has developed the concept of nationhood in their lands is a question, and would make this different.

As for England and Scotland in union, that did not happen for over hundred years, with Parliments in both Scotland and England rejected the idea for a long time, with the Stuarts leading the nations as indepent allied kingdoms.  It was only allowed when both Parliments finally accepted the idea.  if Ferelden and Orlias were to function like this, then Ferelden would retain it's own rule, customs and laws, and the Bannorn would retain it's authority.  Both Ferelden and Orlais would exist as  seperate allied kingdoms ruled by one monarch.


I can't believe it took so long for someone to say this.  Thank you.

#488
Addai

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klarabella wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
What's the native language of Orlais? And Antiva?
All of them use a dwarven language.

Yes, all of them know the Common Tongue, which is a dwarven language. But all the other nations still have a native language, while Ferelden lost theirs.

I don't recall- where is your source for this?

I thought the Orlesians still spoke their own language during the occupation. Isn't there a situation when Maric or whoever is the POV character can't understand them?

Leliana also feels the need to explain to you why she speaks your language. Zevran constantly uses terms of endearment in Antivan in fanfiction (I assumed he does so in the game, too).

We know that Tevinter has its own language.

And I remember that someone linked to a post David Gaider had made to explain what the common tongue is and why it has replaced the native tongue in Ferelden..

I 'm not sure, but haven't you yourself used Arabic as a stand-in for Rivaini?




None of this tells me that Fereldans lost their national tongue.  What is your source for that?

We see very few Orlesians in TST, and I assume all of them would be able to speak the common language.

Not that it really matters.  It's a weak point even if granted.  Ferelden, unlike Orlais or Tevinter proper, was formed from clans who might not have had a standard language and could have adopted the dwarven trading language as their lingua franca, the same way Germany developed out of various Germanic tribes but eventually settled on a standard dialect.  It doesn't mean there isn't a cultural identity. Still less that they wouldn't mind being absorbed by Orlais!!

#489
Addai

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jvee wrote...

Curlain wrote...
Modern countries are not necessarily a good example here, nationalism and national identity were foreign political concepts to the medieval mind, while an idea of being from a certain people existed, the idea of the nation state and nationalism would not appear until centuries later.  People opperated through various forms of the fedual system and through custom, through systems of duties, obligations and responsibities on all sides, and it was not uncommon to see a noble having lands in two different kingdoms (say in the Kingdom of England and that of France, which was how the Ango-Norman-Plantagent Kings formed the Angevian empire), and such nobles were not percieved as foriegn interlopers.  Even when kingship changed hands to someone of a foriegn nationality it did not in itself cause issue, the English did not necessarily resent William the Conquer because he was Norman-French (he did have  a claim to the throne, and they had worked well under Danish rulers like Canute) but because the incoming Normans replaced much of exist systems of rule and at times ignored established custom.  Whether Thedas has developed the concept of nationhood in their lands is a question, and would make this different.

As for England and Scotland in union, that did not happen for over hundred years, with Parliments in both Scotland and England rejected the idea for a long time, with the Stuarts leading the nations as indepent allied kingdoms.  It was only allowed when both Parliments finally accepted the idea.  if Ferelden and Orlias were to function like this, then Ferelden would retain it's own rule, customs and laws, and the Bannorn would retain it's authority.  Both Ferelden and Orlais would exist as  seperate allied kingdoms ruled by one monarch.


I can't believe it took so long for someone to say this.  Thank you.

And you both maintain that Fereldans would not mind being absorbed by Orlais?

Before you respond, please indicate if you've read the game novels.  I'm finding that it's a waste of time to discuss such topics if people haven't.

#490
USArmyParatrooper

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Addai67 wrote...

And you both maintain that Fereldans would not mind being absorbed by Orlais?

Before you respond, please indicate if you've read the game novels.  I'm finding that it's a waste of time to discuss such topics if people haven't.


This, of course, is based on the premise that being absorbed by Orlais is the only possble outcome of a relationship between Cailan and the Orlesian hottie.

#491
testing123

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Addai67 wrote...
And you both maintain that Fereldans would not mind being absorbed by Orlais?

Before you respond, please indicate if you've read the game novels.  I'm finding that it's a waste of time to discuss such topics if people haven't.


It's a waste of time to discuss this topic period.  But yes, I've read both books.  (I get a gold star for reading!)

The subject of nationalism was not the only point contended in Curlain's post.  Curlain also did an excellent job demonstrating the tangled allegiances often found in reality's medieval period and cast considerable doubt on the often bandied about 'absolute certainty of an Orlesian annexation of Ferelden.'  It is a point I have avoided making due to my lack of skill in articulating points of historical evidence.  Curlain eloquently summarized the points I was unable to make myself, and I quoted it in the hopes that others would see it as well.   

The idea that a marriage alliance between Orlais and Ferelden would most assuredly end Ferelden independence is a separate issue to whether or not nationalism exists in the Dragon Age universe.  Nevertheless, the only evidence offered in contradiction to that particular point was a battle cry at Ostagar.  I think it was a fair point, but not exactly strong enough to dismiss the original argument.  

Cultural identities and national identities so often become intertwined, it is difficult to distinguish between the two.  What makes a Fereldan?  Is it defined by the political borders established by the government?  Or is it more of a cultural identity that can potentially exclude even those inhabiting the borders?  I don't think there is enough evidence to say for certain.  And without that knowledge it is difficult to establish that a spirit of nationalism exists in an era that has historically been without it.

#492
Amazon Queen

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USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

And you both maintain that Fereldans would not mind being absorbed by Orlais?

Before you respond, please indicate if you've read the game novels.  I'm finding that it's a waste of time to discuss such topics if people haven't.


This, of course, is based on the premise that being absorbed by Orlais is the only possble outcome of a relationship between Cailan and the Orlesian hottie.


No, that its the most likely outcome

A couple of people have argued that nation-states didn't exist in the medieval era
True but they didn't spring up fully formed either
The medieval era was when a sense of nationhood and common identity was being forged that provided the basis for the creation of nation states. Not in every case - it didn't happen in Italy or Germany at this time - but certainly in the case of England and France. There were other factors as well eg the emergence of a powerful monarchy and a reduction in baronial power in England after the War of the Roses
Usually it was forged through war, driving out foriegn conquerers etc. Orlais' failed conquest of Ferelden would have done wonders for Ferelden identity and made one of its defining features hostility to Orlais

#493
KnightofPhoenix

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jvee wrote...
The idea that a marriage alliance between Orlais and Ferelden would most assuredly end Ferelden independence is a separate issue to whether or not nationalism exists in the Dragon Age universe.  Nevertheless, the only evidence offered in contradiction to that particular point was a battle cry at Ostagar.  I think it was a fair point, but not exactly strong enough to dismiss the original argument.  


Except it isn't the only evidence and if you read what was said, no one claimed that there is nationalism in Ferelden, but rather a concept of nationhood or proto-nationalism.

Loghain: "How will the Orlesians take our nation from us". Not our kingdom.

"Most of what we know about the founding of our nation comes from old songs that the bards passed down through the Ages." --From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar

"Our people, who from time immemorial valued their freedom over all else, were forced to bow to Orlesian rule [...]
With the capital once more in the hands of Fereldans, the battle to free our people was finally over." --From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar



Also Maric saying that no one person is more important than Ferelden. In addition to the political system whose middle class (freeholders) are more empowered than other places, are more likely to support concepts like nationhood. So no, the battle cry at Ostagar is not the only evidence, I referred to the codex and what Maric said before.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 23 février 2011 - 05:10 .


#494
JFarr74

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Wow....are we now REALLY taking notes from the game to support our arguments?...just...wow......

#495
LobselVith8

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JFarr74 wrote...

Wow....are we now REALLY taking notes from the game to support our arguments?...just...wow......


You've clearly never encountered the epic and equally pointless mage vs. templar threads, where walls of text and a never-ending discussion ate four entire threads at one time.

#496
Glorfindel709

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JFarr74 wrote...

Wow....are we now REALLY taking notes from the game to support our arguments?...just...wow......


As we're arguing whether a type of proto-nationalism exists in a fictional nation state, using the writers of the games' information as fact seems to be a pretty good choice to me. Because, you know, they created it?

You could just as easily say that trying to apply real world history arguments to an argument about a fictional nations burdgeoning sense of Nationalism is dumb due to different circumstances, cultures, etc.

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 23 février 2011 - 07:35 .


#497
Amazon Queen

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Glorfindel709 wrote...

JFarr74 wrote...

Wow....are we now REALLY taking notes from the game to support our arguments?...just...wow......


As we're arguing whether a type of proto-nationalism exists in a fictional nation state, using the writers of the games' information as fact seems to be a pretty good choice to me. Because, you know, they created it?

You could just as easily say that trying to apply real world history arguments to an argument about a fictional nations burdgeoning sense of Nationalism is dumb due to different circumstances, cultures, etc.


As someone who has been trying to apply arguments based on real world history I'd sadly have to agree with that <_<. Resemblances to real world history there may be but Orlais isn't France. Info from the game trumps real world arguments since fantasy writers tend to borrow from all over the place. I have trouble placing Thedas in a specific period. Antiva resembles renaissance Italy, Orlais late medieval France but also the France of Richlieu and the Sun King (politics and culture rather than technology), Feralden reminds me of Anglo-Saxon England politically (with Loghain standing in for the Godwins).

#498
Glorfindel709

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I agree with all of your placements in regards to each countries historical time placement, especially Orlais as France under Richlieu, but while we can all point to historical examples of similar events and negotiations, in the end the world that the Writers created and the information we're given about it has to take precedence in any discussion or debate about in-game politics.



Drawing similarities isn't a problem, but when the entire debate gets framed about how "This happened in *insert various countries* and we can apply it to Ferelden/Orlais" it becomes an issue. While the world we play in may have resemblances to our world, in the end it *isn't* and because of that, I think we have to go based on the information we have in the Codex and in game scenarios.

#499
Amazon Queen

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Glorfindel709 wrote...

I agree with all of your placements in regards to each countries historical time placement, especially Orlais as France under Richlieu, but while we can all point to historical examples of similar events and negotiations, in the end the world that the Writers created and the information we're given about it has to take precedence in any discussion or debate about in-game politics.

Drawing similarities isn't a problem, but when the entire debate gets framed about how "This happened in *insert various countries* and we can apply it to Ferelden/Orlais" it becomes an issue. While the world we play in may have resemblances to our world, in the end it *isn't* and because of that, I think we have to go based on the information we have in the Codex and in game scenarios.


I think you'll find I agree with you. I did say info from the game trumps real world arguments after all. As a history buff I enjoy searching for similarities but I recognise it isn't our world. Then again in those areas the authors have left unexplored and there are many drawing arguments from real world comparisions seems to me a good basis for discussion.

edit: so long as we recognise whatever becomes the general view of Forumites will be completely contradicted by a later game in the series ... at which point much gnashing of teeth will be heard

Modifié par Amazon Queen, 23 février 2011 - 09:16 .


#500
Addai

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USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

And you both maintain that Fereldans would not mind being absorbed by Orlais?

Before you respond, please indicate if you've read the game novels.  I'm finding that it's a waste of time to discuss such topics if people haven't.


This, of course, is based on the premise that being absorbed by Orlais is the only possble outcome of a relationship between Cailan and the Orlesian hottie.

What other possible inducement is there for Celene to make such a match?