764 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

so if I was a dwarf, born in Ferelden, and Ferelden unjustly went to war against Orzammar for say... lyrium, I'm supposed to agree with Ferelden's reasons for war? Your logic is flawed, because I have both my heritage and my place of birth at war. Also, Grey Wardens don't always become Grey Wardens in the country of their birth.

"If you fight you are a soldier"? By that logic mages are soldiers too, as they fight literally and figuratively. They fight demons, and have to fight themselves. If you went to war would you set loose the mages on the country you're at war with? I doubt you would, the Chantry would be all over you like butter on toast (buttered toast)

[TEWR]

continue on with this discussion, I must take a temporary leave of you people so as to pick up my little brother from day care. I shall return as quickly as possible.

[Wereparrot]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

Because in order to fight Darkspawn you may need to leave your country. In order to do your duty, you may have to go against the leaders of your country (hey, like we do in Origins!) You may have to do things that are not in line with the laws of your country. "Whatever it takes, to defeat the Blight."

Whether you do actually rebel against Anora is ultimately your choice; you are not forced into it. I merely used Eamon to get at Loghain; I had no quarrel with Anora. And sure a darkspawn fighter may need to do things contrary to law, but then so do special forces wordwide and the CIA, MI5 and MI6 and you can't call them disloyal.

If the Grey Wardens became an arm of a nations monarch, then they'd be compromising their ability to fully do their duty. You owe your cooperation as a Warden, but that doesnt mean you owe them absolute loyalty.

How? How? I refer you again to the SAS and like bodies.

[Aedan_Cousland]

I killed Loghain in my canon playthrough. But then in my canon playthrough sparing him would have seemed out of character.

Sparing Loghain doesn't make much sense if you play the human noble origin, because Loghain is responsible for the murder of your family, and the loss of your family's fiefdom and wealth.

Sure, Arl Howe may have been the one getting his hands dirty but he couldn't have done it without having Loghain's approval. Arl Howe is only able to betray and murder Teyrn Cousland because Loghain needed him out of the way in order to kill the king. The Couslands were the most powerful noble family in all of Ferelden after the royal family, and they were staunchly loyal to the king to boot. Loghain wouldn't have been able to consolidate his hold over the kingdom following the king's murder unless the Couslands had been dealt with first. While Arl Howe may have carried out the murder of your parents, Teyrn Loghain was at best a co-conspirator in that murder, and at worst it's engineer.

Sparing someone who was involved in the murder your own family would be entirely out of character. A Cousland should always relish the moment where he (or she) lops off Loghain's traitorous head.

Other characters besides Couslands, may have less personal reasons to kill Loghain. Especially if they did not become Grey Wardens willingly (and thus had no personal loyalty to Duncan), and if they were from races that owed no allegiance to the King.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 03 mars 2011 - 09:09 .

[Glorfindel709]

Loghain is the declared Regent of Ferelden, the Queen agreed to it and he exercised that power. Whether a segment of the Banns thought it legitimate or not, he was the rightful Regent as declared by the Queen of Ferelden. By going against Loghain, you just went against the State.

Wereparrot, let me give you a hypothetical situation.

One hundred Grey Wardens are at the border of Tevinter and Orlais waiting to go into Tevinter to help them fight a large Darkspawn incursion or even a Blight that has begun on Tevinter lands. Along with them, they're bringing some support troops. The Divine and the Empress see an opportunity to swoop in and gain a bunch of territory AND remove the Tevinter Chantry and decide to put a massive amount of Orlesian Chevaliers and Templars into the supporting army being led by the Grey Wardens.

The Blights being pushed back, and then suddenly Orlais is claiming territory, burning the capital of Tevinter, and slaughtering the Magisters. Why? Because they used the Blight as an excuse of Power Politics. Grey Wardens must be allowed to move autonomously of a monarch in order to be kept out of being used as a political maneuvering tool.

[Wereparrot]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

so if I was a dwarf, born in Ferelden, and Ferelden unjustly went to war against Orzammar for say... lyrium, I'm supposed to agree with Ferelden's reasons for war? Your logic is flawed, because I have both my heritage and my place of birth at war.

That's different; Orzammar being a completely different culture. Anyway, wouldn't that be a Civil Way? Normal niceties are thrown out of the window. Your point is flawed.
 

Also, Grey Wardens don't always become Grey Wardens in the country of their birth.

 
I still expect loyalty. I don't see why you would't. O give an example: Juan Carlos is a knight of the Garter, but I would expect his loyalty to be due to Spain, as it should be.

"If you fight you are a soldier"? By that logic mages are soldiers too, as they fight literally and figuratively. They fight demons, and have to fight themselves. If you went to war would you set loose the mages on the country you're at war with? I doubt you would, the Chantry would be all over you like butter on toast (buttered toast)

A soldier is a member of the land component of a nation's armed forces. Mages are not therefore soldiers as they are not in the army.

[Wereparrot]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

Loghain is the declared Regent of Ferelden, the Queen agreed to it and he exercised that power. Whether a segment of the Banns thought it legitimate or not, he was the rightful Regent as declared by the Queen of Ferelden. By going against Loghain, you just went against the State.

Wereparrot, let me give you a hypothetical situation.

One hundred Grey Wardens are at the border of Tevinter and Orlais waiting to go into Tevinter to help them fight a large Darkspawn incursion or even a Blight that has begun on Tevinter lands. Along with them, they're bringing some support troops. The Divine and the Empress see an opportunity to swoop in and gain a bunch of territory AND remove the Tevinter Chantry and decide to put a massive amount of Orlesian Chevaliers and Templars into the supporting army being led by the Grey Wardens.

The Blights being pushed back, and then suddenly Orlais is claiming territory, burning the capital of Tevinter, and slaughtering the Magisters. Why? Because they used the Blight as an excuse of Power Politics. Grey Wardens must be allowed to move autonomously of a monarch in order to be kept out of being used as a political maneuvering tool.

So you are saying that, shoud Orlais attack Ferelden, I should be prohited from using these troops? You therefore damn Ferelden to defeat.

[Aedan_Cousland]

Loghain is the declared Regent of Ferelden, the Queen agreed to it and he exercised that power. Whether a segment of the Banns thought it legitimate or not, he was the rightful Regent as declared by the Queen of Ferelden. By going against Loghain, you just went against the State.

Only because the Queen does not at first suspect that Loghain played a role in the death of her husband and King.

When she does suspect it, and when Loghain takes measures to limit her influence over the kingdom, she actively plots against him. The Queen, and not Loghain, is monarch. Part of the reason why Anora is so important to the rebellion is because having her as an ally grants the rebellion legitimacy. It exposes Loghain to most of the nation as a usurper acting against the interests of the State. 

There are some players who dislike Anora and try to sideline her in their playthroughs, but that is the politically stupid move for your character. Getting Anora to denounce Loghain as a regicide and usurper is a massive political coup for the rebellion, and secures legitimacy for your side in the peace that follows the end of the civil war and the Blight. It establishes your side, rather than Loghain and his supports, as the true defenders of the State and the monarchy.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 03 mars 2011 - 11:03 .

[TEWR]

Wereparrot wrote...


That's different; Orzammar being a completely different culture. Anyway, wouldn't that be a Civil Way? Normal niceties are thrown out of the window. Your point is flawed..

 
Civil Way? You mean Civil War? No because Orzammar is a dwarven colony, part of a great expanse of dwarven thaigs. They are their own country, city, state, whathaveyou.

Wereparrot wrote...

I still expect loyalty. I don't see why you would't. O give an example: Juan Carlos is a knight of the Garter, but I would expect his loyalty to be due to Spain, as it should be.

so he should abandon his knightly vows in service to another country out of a sense of heritage? That's not right, especially if he agrees with midieval England if they went to war with Spain. If he settled down in England, loves England, agrees with England, he should abandon all that because he's Spanish? no. Side note: The reason I'm refraining from mentioning historical people in this thread is because my historical knowledge is rusty, so I don't want to make mistakes.

"If you fight you are a soldier"? By that logic mages are soldiers too, as they fight literally and figuratively. They fight demons, and have to fight themselves. If you went to war would you set loose the mages on the country you're at war with? I doubt you would, the Chantry would be all over you like butter on toast (buttered toast)

Wereparrot wrote...

A soldier is a member of the land component of a nation's armed forces. Mages are not therefore soldiers as they are not in the army.

then why didn't you say that in the first place, instead of your vague definition

[TEWR]

the only thing I hated about Anora was her crappy battle speech before the Final Battle at Denerim. But that's off topic

[Glorfindel709]

Look Wereparrot, the fact remains that the Grey Wardens exist neutral of political identity (except in the Anderfels of course because they have a weak ineffectual government and everyone turns to the Wardens for solutions) This is a fact of Lore, not of opinion.

[Wereparrot]

Ok, the Order of the Garter is an English order, but it's knights are international. King Juan Carlos, and many other monarchs, are knights of the Garter. But membership does not and should not impede loyalty to one's own nation. Foreign knights have no loyalty to England, save to the Queen as head of the order.

But let's imagine Juan Carlos was a young medieval knight admitted to the Order at the behest of it's founder, Edward III. Now, should England and Spain should have a disagreement to the point of war, then no matter what Juan felt for England, I would expect him to take up arms on behalf of Spain. 

Modifié par Wereparrot, 03 mars 2011 - 09:56 .

[Wereparrot]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

Look Wereparrot, the fact remains that the Grey Wardens exist neutral of political identity (except in the Anderfels of course because they have a weak ineffectual government and everyone turns to the Wardens for solutions) This is a fact of Lore, not of opinion.

I respect the lore, but that would not stop me feeling more than a little apprehensive about the prospect of political interference from Weissaupt. I would fervently hope that the Wardens do remain true to their own rule.

[Glorfindel709]

Wereparrot - there is a large difference between the Order of the Garter which is an honorific and created as a, to quote King Edward III "a society, fellowship, and college of knights"

The Grey Wardens are a strict military order that was created to fight the Darkspawn. *shrugs*

[Wye]

While I admire Alistair for his personality, Loghain is the better character. He is a bona fide tank, and is more durable than Alistair.

[Wereparrot]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

Wereparrot - there is a large difference between the Order of the Garter which is an honorific and created as a, to quote King Edward III "a society, fellowship, and college of knights"

The Grey Wardens are a strict military order that was created to fight the Darkspawn. *shrugs*

Yes. But I don't see why the Wardens should be any different. Loyalty is loyaty in my book. I appreciate the difference between the Order of the Garter and the Grey Wardens, but still...anyway, how could a Fereldan sit by and watch his nation overcome, knowing he is capable of fighting? That would take some serious self control, and might even break someone. 

[Glorfindel709]

I mean I'm sure that some would fight for their country, but a lot of the Origins have no reason to. Both dwarven origins, the city elf origin, half of the Wardens of Ferelden that died at Ostagar were apparently from other countries had no tie to Ferelden.

That being said, for me it would depend on the circumstances. Is my country being invaded by force for conquest, or did my country screw up and ****** off the wrong enemy? I'm not loyal to a place because I was born there, but because of the idea of the place. The Leader of the nation, the state of the nation, etc are all ephemeral.

[TEWR]

Wereparrot wrote...

Ok, the Order of the Garter is an English order, but it's knights are international. King Juan Carlos, and many other monarchs, are knights of the Garter. But membership does not and should not impede loyalty to one's own nation. Foreign knights have no loyalty to England, save to the Queen as head of the order.

But let's imagine Juan Carlos was a young medieval knight admitted to the Order at the behest of it's founder, Edward III. Now, should England and Spain should have a disagreement to the point of war, then no matter what Juan felt for England, I would expect him to take up arms on behalf of Spain. 

one good thing about the forums is that you can learn a lot of history here .

and that's what you would EXPECT him to do, but he isn't your puppet so you don't know how he would act. If he thinks differently than you think on what he should do, do you think less of him?

[TJPags]

Wereparrot wrote...


I cannot quote it, but Gaider said previously that Anora is the queen. I happen to agree. I believe that by law the Theirin line has failed because of Alistair's illegitimacy, and Anora becomes queen by virtue of being the only known living relative of Cailan, albeit not by blood.

Gaider ignores his own games lore, which requires that the ruler of Ferelden be elected by the Landsmeet.  No Landsmeet, no ruler.

At best, she is perhaps acting regent, no more.  And calling a Landsmeet - which, by Ferelden law must elect the ruler - is no revolt.

Also, on the Grey Warden issue - so, when Loghain is sent to Orlais, do you honestly expect that he will obey commands of the Orlesian Empress?  Since, you know, he's a soldier on the ground and all that.

[TEWR]

TJPags wrote...


Gaider ignores his own games lore, which requires that the ruler of Ferelden be elected by the Landsmeet.  No Landsmeet, no ruler.

At best, she is perhaps acting regent, no more.  And calling a Landsmeet - which, by Ferelden law must elect the ruler - is no revolt.

Also, on the Grey Warden issue - so, when Loghain is sent to Orlais, do you honestly expect that he will obey commands of the Orlesian Empress?  Since, you know, he's a soldier on the ground and all that.

HA! That's a good point. Loghain was born in a time when Orlais ruled, thus making him born on Orlesian soil and making him an Orlesian. So by your logic wereparrot, Loghain should follow only Orlais politics and all that.

[JFarr74]

Loghain, an Orlesian?!

[JFarr74]

Sorry, double post:whistle:

Modifié par JFarr74, 04 mars 2011 - 02:41 .

[Xilizhra]

Sparing someone who was involved in the murder your own family would be entirely out of character. A Cousland should always relish the moment where he (or she) lops off Loghain's traitorous head.

For one thing, an individual Cousland may well be more forgiving than yours. For another, they've already killed Howe.

[Joy Divison]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sparing someone who was involved in the murder your own family would be entirely out of character. A Cousland should always relish the moment where he (or she) lops off Loghain's traitorous head.

For one thing, an individual Cousland may well be more forgiving than yours. For another, they've already killed Howe.

That might be difficult.  At Ostagar Loghain informs a Cousland GW he knows of Howe's treachery at Highever and thus making Loghain's alliace with Howe reprehensible.

[Emperor Iaius I]

HA! That's a good point. Loghain was born in a time when Orlais ruled, thus making him born on Orlesian soil and making him an Orlesian. So by your logic wereparrot, Loghain should follow only Orlais politics and all that.

Let's be careful. Ius soli is not a universal standard of citizenship, nor is it a historical norm. While Loghain would have been born an Orlesian subject, that simply does not make him Orlesian in a timeframe where the demonym denoted particular ethnic, cultural, and social normals. He was a Fereldan subject to the crown of Orlais, nothing more.

Further, this regent nonsense is silly. A regent rules on behalf of the throne and cannot ever constitute the state. It's not at all clear that the monarchy and the state are coextensive either: foreign ambassadors are known to comment on the idea that in Fereldan, power stems upward from the freeholders. What makes a king more powerful than a teryn or an arl is the number of people sworn to him: if the Landsmeet declines to support a king, it is questionable whether or not that person would be king.

This is what Loghain never understood. He was too much of a narrow-minded nationalist, and too bound up in a cult of personality over the person of Maric. These flaws, together, gave him a warped, ahistorical view of how politics functioned in Fereldan. The bannorn are not to be dictated to from above: the powers of the monarchy derive from their support. If he were king, perhaps he'd have a little more leeway since they'd have been sworn to him after giving him their consent: but he was not king and could never be king.

He was born a farmer's son and he died a farmer's son. Blood speaks volumes. His termageant daughter was just like him, only cleverer.