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[Wereparrot]

TJPags wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...


Gaider ignores his own games lore, which requires that the ruler of Ferelden be elected by the Landsmeet.  No Landsmeet, no ruler.

At best, she is perhaps acting regent, no more.  And calling a Landsmeet - which, by Ferelden law must elect the ruler - is no revolt.

Also, on the Grey Warden issue - so, when Loghain is sent to Orlais, do you honestly expect that he will obey commands of the Orlesian Empress?  Since, you know, he's a soldier on the ground and all that.

HA! That's a good point. Loghain was born in a time when Orlais ruled, thus making him born on Orlesian soil and making him an Orlesian. So by your logic wereparrot, Loghain should follow only Orlais politics and all that.

That is incorrect. Someone born in Gibraltar is a Gibraltarian, not British, even though Gibraltar is a colony. It doesn't always work the way it did in the Roman Empire.

Regardless of whether he qualifies as an Orlesian or not, weren't you arguing that a soldier on the ground must fight for and obey the commands of the ruler of the country he's in?  Wouldn't that mean Loghain would have to fight for and obey the commands of Celene?

Yes and no. A colonial power may conscript the services of soldiers from the realms under its rule, but in practice it's not that simple. If it was, then France and America would never have gained independence, and neither would Ferelden. It's all to do with the said realm's sense of national identity and willpower. 

Modifié par Wereparrot, 05 mars 2011 - 01:27 .

[JFarr74]

I felt bad for Loghain.....he just wanted to protect Ferelden, he just did it wrong.

Modifié par JFarr74, 05 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[TEWR]

JFarr74 wrote...

I felt bad for Loghain.....he just wanted to protect Ferelden, he just did it wrong.

Protecting Ferelden....

you're doing it wrong!


someone needs to make a Loghain image with those words. I would, but do not have the necessary programs or whatever

[JFarr74]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

JFarr74 wrote...

I felt bad for Loghain.....he just wanted to protect Ferelden, he just did it wrong.

Protecting Ferelden....

you're doing it wrong!

someone needs to make a Loghain image with those words. I would, but do not have the necessary programs or whatever

Heck ya!

[Amazon Queen]

Wereparrot wrote...

@Amazon Queen: You may say what you like, but you cannot argue with over a thousand years of history. I have already said that I am well aware of treacheries hypocrisies and inconsistencies of the past, but it changes nothing.

When Henry II died, it was not his eldest remaining and illegitimate son Geoffrey who became king but Henry's eldest legitimate son, Richard I. And when Richard died, his brother John became king instead of his bastard son.

Legitimacy also continues to be relevant to hereditary titles: only legitimate children are usually admitted to the line of succession. However, some monarchs such as Elizabeth I of England have succeeded to the throne despite the controversial status of his or her legitimacy.

You clearly do not agree, but please do not refute history.

I never tried to claim that a legitimate child does not have precedence over an illigitimate child. The point I am making is that spouses have no right of succession to titles, but illigitimate children can inherit titles if there are no legitimate children. Stop refuting arguments I'm not making!

[JFarr74]

Amazon Queen wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

@Amazon Queen: You may say what you like, but you cannot argue with over a thousand years of history. I have already said that I am well aware of treacheries hypocrisies and inconsistencies of the past, but it changes nothing.

When Henry II died, it was not his eldest remaining and illegitimate son Geoffrey who became king but Henry's eldest legitimate son, Richard I. And when Richard died, his brother John became king instead of his bastard son.

Legitimacy also continues to be relevant to hereditary titles: only legitimate children are usually admitted to the line of succession. However, some monarchs such as Elizabeth I of England have succeeded to the throne despite the controversial status of his or her legitimacy.

You clearly do not agree, but please do not refute history.

I never tried to claim that a legitimate child does not have precedence over an illigitimate child. The point I am making is that spouses have no right of succession to titles, but illigitimate children can inherit titles if there are no legitimate children. Stop refuting arguments I'm not making!

Dude....weak. Are we really bringing actual history into this?  I didn't start this thread for a debate.  I just wanted people to either tell me if I should or shouldn't kill Loghain.

[Wereparrot]

Amazon Queen wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

@Amazon Queen: You may say what you like, but you cannot argue with over a thousand years of history. I have already said that I am well aware of treacheries hypocrisies and inconsistencies of the past, but it changes nothing.

When Henry II died, it was not his eldest remaining and illegitimate son Geoffrey who became king but Henry's eldest legitimate son, Richard I. And when Richard died, his brother John became king instead of his bastard son.

Legitimacy also continues to be relevant to hereditary titles: only legitimate children are usually admitted to the line of succession. However, some monarchs such as Elizabeth I of England have succeeded to the throne despite the controversial status of his or her legitimacy.

You clearly do not agree, but please do not refute history.

I never tried to claim that a legitimate child does not have precedence over an illigitimate child. The point I am making is that spouses have no right of succession to titles, but illigitimate children can inherit titles if there are no legitimate children. Stop refuting arguments I'm not making!

Well, you have put forward a few examples of illegitimate kingship. The situation in Ferelden will most likely never happen in the real world, because there will always be legitimate blood relatives, and there are likely blood relatives in Ferelden too ie the Couslands.

But if King Richard had no legitimate brothers, then it is still very possible that Eleanor of Aquitaine would have acceded instead of Richard's bastard, or indeed his illegitimate brother Geoffrey.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Er, the American colonists were Englishmen (primarily) and they were sworn to the King. Their governments existed by royal charter. It's a rather different situation altogether.

[JFarr74]

Let him redeem himself...

[TJPags]

Wereparrot wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...


Gaider ignores his own games lore, which requires that the ruler of Ferelden be elected by the Landsmeet.  No Landsmeet, no ruler.

At best, she is perhaps acting regent, no more.  And calling a Landsmeet - which, by Ferelden law must elect the ruler - is no revolt.

Also, on the Grey Warden issue - so, when Loghain is sent to Orlais, do you honestly expect that he will obey commands of the Orlesian Empress?  Since, you know, he's a soldier on the ground and all that.

HA! That's a good point. Loghain was born in a time when Orlais ruled, thus making him born on Orlesian soil and making him an Orlesian. So by your logic wereparrot, Loghain should follow only Orlais politics and all that.

That is incorrect. Someone born in Gibraltar is a Gibraltarian, not British, even though Gibraltar is a colony. It doesn't always work the way it did in the Roman Empire.

Regardless of whether he qualifies as an Orlesian or not, weren't you arguing that a soldier on the ground must fight for and obey the commands of the ruler of the country he's in?  Wouldn't that mean Loghain would have to fight for and obey the commands of Celene?

Yes and no. A colonial power may conscript the services of soldiers from the realms under its rule, but in practice it's not that simple. If it was, then France and America would never have gained independence, and neither would Ferelden. It's all to do with the said realm's sense of national identity and willpower. 

I'm not sure you're gettting the point of my question, or perhaps I misunderstood you.

I thought you were arguing that a ruler - you were speaking, I believe, of the king or queen of ferelden - should have the authority to order all soldiers stationed in thei borders, as in, Grey Wardens and perhaps Templars.

Loghain, a native Ferelden who, as we know, despises Orlais and all things Orlesian, is now a Grey Warden - and is sent by the order to Orlais to act as a recruiter.

Are you suggesting that he should be subject to orders of the Orlesian empress?

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

Well, you have put forward a few examples of illegitimate kingship. The situation in Ferelden will most likely never happen in the real world, because there will always be legitimate blood relatives, and there are likely blood relatives in Ferelden too ie the Couslands.

But if King Richard had no legitimate brothers, then it is still very possible that Eleanor of Aquitaine would have acceded instead of Richard's bastard, or indeed his illegitimate brother Geoffrey.

*scratches head*  The Couslands do not have royal blood, and we do not know of any Theirin heirs.  Most of them were executed under the Orlesians though there might be a third cousin knocking around somewhere if one looked hard enough.

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Well, you have put forward a few examples of illegitimate kingship. The situation in Ferelden will most likely never happen in the real world, because there will always be legitimate blood relatives, and there are likely blood relatives in Ferelden too ie the Couslands.

But if King Richard had no legitimate brothers, then it is still very possible that Eleanor of Aquitaine would have acceded instead of Richard's bastard, or indeed his illegitimate brother Geoffrey.

*scratches head*  The Couslands do not have royal blood, and we do not know of any Theirin heirs.  Most of them were executed under the Orlesians though there might be a third cousin knocking around somewhere if one looked hard enough.

You sure about that? I don't remember anything in-game that either confirmed or disproved that the Couslands had at least some royal blood. After all, it is common practice for high ranking nobles in the real world to be royalty or of royal blood, so why not in Ferelden?

The Duke of Norfolk is decended from Edward I. If the Couslands were descended from an equally long-dead king, then they might have been missed in the Orlesian cull.  

Modifié par Wereparrot, 07 mars 2011 - 11:23 .

[Glorfindel709]

Wereparrot -

The Theirin blood line is dead except for Cailan and Alistair as of 9:30 pre-Ostagar (as far as we know)

The Couslands have been a terynir controlling Highever since the fall of Conobar in the Tower Age (that would be 3:-- so figure around 600 years). Sarim Cousland, the Captain of the Guard, took over the Terynir upon the death of Conobar. It should be noted that this would probably make the Couslands before that point either a relatively powerful freeholder family, or a minor Bann family.

They are the highest ranking nobility (after all, the holder of the Terynir of Gwaren doesnt count... commoner *sniff*) and while Bryce Cousland was considered a contender for the Throne when Maric died, he threw his support behind Cailan to continue the Theirin bloodline of Calenhad as rulers of Ferelden

Modifié par Glorfindel709, 07 mars 2011 - 11:08 .

[Wereparrot]

TJPags wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...


Gaider ignores his own games lore, which requires that the ruler of Ferelden be elected by the Landsmeet.  No Landsmeet, no ruler.

At best, she is perhaps acting regent, no more.  And calling a Landsmeet - which, by Ferelden law must elect the ruler - is no revolt.

Also, on the Grey Warden issue - so, when Loghain is sent to Orlais, do you honestly expect that he will obey commands of the Orlesian Empress?  Since, you know, he's a soldier on the ground and all that.

HA! That's a good point. Loghain was born in a time when Orlais ruled, thus making him born on Orlesian soil and making him an Orlesian. So by your logic wereparrot, Loghain should follow only Orlais politics and all that.

That is incorrect. Someone born in Gibraltar is a Gibraltarian, not British, even though Gibraltar is a colony. It doesn't always work the way it did in the Roman Empire.

Regardless of whether he qualifies as an Orlesian or not, weren't you arguing that a soldier on the ground must fight for and obey the commands of the ruler of the country he's in?  Wouldn't that mean Loghain would have to fight for and obey the commands of Celene?

Yes and no. A colonial power may conscript the services of soldiers from the realms under its rule, but in practice it's not that simple. If it was, then France and America would never have gained independence, and neither would Ferelden. It's all to do with the said realm's sense of national identity and willpower. 

I'm not sure you're gettting the point of my question, or perhaps I misunderstood you.

I thought you were arguing that a ruler - you were speaking, I believe, of the king or queen of ferelden - should have the authority to order all soldiers stationed in thei borders, as in, Grey Wardens and perhaps Templars.

Loghain, a native Ferelden who, as we know, despises Orlais and all things Orlesian, is now a Grey Warden - and is sent by the order to Orlais to act as a recruiter.

Are you suggesting that he should be subject to orders of the Orlesian empress?

I began by saying that I, as king, would exile the Grey Warden name but integrate the actual Wardens into the Fereldan army to ensure their loyalty. Forget the Wardens. The debate moved on to a discussion of citizenship and the conscription rights of an empire. 

[Wereparrot]

Glorfindel709 wrote...


They are the highest ranking nobility

And the highest ranking nobles in England are of royal blood. Why not in Ferelden? Even a long way down the line?

Modifié par Wereparrot, 07 mars 2011 - 11:24 .

[Wereparrot]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Er, the American colonists were Englishmen (primarily) and they were sworn to the King. Their governments existed by royal charter. It's a rather different situation altogether.

Oh yeah, I just got carried away a bit.

[Glorfindel709]

@Wereparrot

Several reasons.....

A) The bottom up system of Ferelden: Freeholders, Banns, Arls, Teryns, King. The King derives his power from them. The King of Ferelden is held separately from the general nobility because they are of the line of Calenhad the Silver Knight.

The Couslands are the highest ranking nobility except for the Royal line of Calenhad. Again, fact of Lore. Did you ignore the rest of my post about how they were basically lower ranking gentry at most before they seized Highever after the fall of Conobar in Tower?

Ferelden is not England. Nor is it France, Prussia, etc etc. It may have some similar structures and socio-economic settings, but in the end this is a fictional country that spawned from the minds of the writers from a multitude of different inspirations.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You as the Ruler of Ferelden do not have the power to disband the Grey Wardens. They are an order of warriors that answer to Weisshaupt. They give discretion and advice and follow the will of the King of Ferelden to an extent, especially since they only recently were allowed back into the country, but they are a power beyond your ability to command. They would never accept the disbanding of their order and being reshuffled into the military. They serve a higher calling beyond the petty squabbles of ephemeral kings and dynasty. And that is something that you cannot touch or make them ignore - their very blood denys you that.

[Wereparrot]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

@Wereparrot

Several reasons.....

A) The bottom up system of Ferelden: Freeholders, Banns, Arls, Teryns, King. The King derives his power from them. The King of Ferelden is held separately from the general nobility because they are of the line of Calenhad the Silver Knight.

This surely does not prvent the king giving land as a reward to his subjects? Case in point: Loghain.

The Couslands are the highest ranking nobility except for the Royal line of Calenhad. Again, fact of Lore. Did you ignore the rest of my post about how they were basically lower ranking gentry at most before they seized Highever after the fall of Conobar in Tower?

This does not change the fact that they may also have origionally been given land by the king.

Ferelden is not England. Nor is it France, Prussia, etc etc. It may have some similar structures and socio-economic settings, but in the end this is a fictional country that spawned from the minds of the writers from a multitude of different inspirations.

 
If positions of power may be given by the king, as in the case of Loghain, then I don't see much difference in social structures.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You as the Ruler of Ferelden do not have the power to disband the Grey Wardens. They are an order of warriors that answer to Weisshaupt. They give discretion and advice and follow the will of the King of Ferelden to an extent, especially since they only recently were allowed back into the country, but they are a power beyond your ability to command. They would never accept the disbanding of their order and being reshuffled into the military. They serve a higher calling beyond the petty squabbles of ephemeral kings and dynasty. And that is something that you cannot touch or make them ignore - their very blood denys you that.

I wasn't talking about disbanding them; it is not my concern. I can, however, exile them, as has been done before. The extrication of the Fereldan Wardens from the order may prove difficult, but come what may.

[Glorfindel709]

.....The Couslands controlled Highever since before Ferelden was even a country and had a King. That's what prevents them from having originally been given land by the King.

And what does giving land have to do with them being of royal blood?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Really? You don't see a difference in Fereldens bottom up power system with Medieval monarchies?
~~~~~~~~~~~~
You cannot exile the Order without exiling the members. They are Grey Wardens, they leave their old existence behind to dedicate themselves to fighting the Darkspawn. There is no way that you could have the power to integrate Wardens into a general army if you remove the Order. Remove the order, and they leave - Loyal Fereldens or not (as evidenced by the removal of the Wardens in their previous exile)

[Wereparrot]

Glorfindel709 wrote...

.....The Couslands controlled Highever since before Ferelden was even a country and had a King. That's what prevents them from having originally been given land by the King.

It doesn't rule them out of having royal blood though. The origional king's cousin perhaps? etc

And what does giving land have to do with them being of royal blood?

 
Have you been reading what I've been saying about the feudal system?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Really? You don't see a difference in Fereldens bottom up power system with Medieval monarchies?

 
Oh, then maybe the instance of Loghain's promotion to Teryn of Gwaren was a one-off, or the action of a power-mad Maric.
~~~~~~~~~~~~

You cannot exile the Order without exiling the members. They are Grey Wardens, they leave their old existence behind to dedicate themselves to fighting the Darkspawn. There is no way that you could have the power to integrate Wardens into a general army if you remove the Order. Remove the order, and they leave - Loyal Fereldens or not (as evidenced by the removal of the Wardens in their previous exile)

If loyalty and fealty means anything at all, the Fereldan-born Wardens will stay in Ferelden. You have a very dim view of the concept.

[TJPags]

Wereparrot wrote...

If loyalty and fealty means anything at all, the Fereldan-born Wardens will stay in Ferelden. You have a very dim view of the concept.

I think you have a dim view of the concept.

Loyalty to a place you happened to have been born is one thing.  Loyalty to a group that took you in and accepted you is another.

As we don't know how citizenship works in Thedas, I'll assume you're not talking about someone who just happens to be born in a country - as in, say, Orlesian parents having their child while passing through Ferelden, or perhaps while living there a brief time.

But, would you consider Riordan a Ferelden?  He says he was born there, but he must have been in Orlais a while, as he seems (to me) to have a bit of an Orlesian accent.

Moving on to the Wardens themselves, lets look at some of the Wardens we may have.  A City Elf, or a Dalish Elf.  Loyalty to Ferelden?  Unlikely.  Dwarven Noble or Commoner . . even more unlikely.  Mage?  Taken from their parents, raised in the Tower, and freed of that place by the Wardens?  Again, unlikely.  So, perhaps a Cousland.  But would a Cousland accept a ruler disbanding an Order like that, and conscripting its individual members?  My Cousland wouldn't support that at all.
 
Let's see about a few more - Velanna?  Anders?  One's a Dalish Elf who hates humans, the other is a mage who escaped the Tower 7 times, and was dragged back - until the Wardens took him in.  So, again, unlikely.
 
Ohgren?  Sigrun?  Unlikely.  Nathaniel Howe?  Perhaps.  But I think his sense of honor would have him support the Order that took him in, over the nation that trashed his family.  Remember, it's the sitting King/Queen of Ferelden that took away his home.  Justice?  Well, he's a spirit, for one, and he's inhabiting the body of an Orlesian, for two.
 
So where's this loyalty you refer to going to come from?

[Wereparrot]

TJPags wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

If loyalty and fealty means anything at all, the Fereldan-born Wardens will stay in Ferelden. You have a very dim view of the concept.

I think you have a dim view of the concept.

Loyalty to a place you happened to have been born is one thing.  Loyalty to a group that took you in and accepted you is another.

You approve of treason, then? You would make war on your own country if Weissaupt ordered it? I'm not saying you can't be reasonably loyal, but there are limits.

You don't exactly have much choice in joining.

And also, you were a Ferelden long before you were a Warden.

As we don't know how citizenship works in Thedas, I'll assume you're not talking about someone who just happens to be born in a country - as in, say, Orlesian parents having their child while passing through Ferelden, or perhaps while living there a brief time.


But, would you consider Riordan a Ferelden?  He says he was born there, but he must have been in Orlais a while, as he seems (to me) to have a bit of an Orlesian accent.

Likewise, we don't know enough about Riordan to say one way or the other.

Moving on to the Wardens themselves, lets look at some of the Wardens we may have.  A City Elf, or a Dalish Elf.  Loyalty to Ferelden?  Unlikely.  Dwarven Noble or Commoner . . even more unlikely.  Mage?  Taken from their parents, raised in the Tower, and freed of that place by the Wardens?  Again, unlikely.  So, perhaps a Cousland.  But would a Cousland accept a ruler disbanding an Order like that, and conscripting its individual members?  My Cousland wouldn't support that at all.
 
Let's see about a few more - Velanna?  Anders?  One's a Dalish Elf who hates humans, the other is a mage who escaped the Tower 7 times, and was dragged back - until the Wardens took him in.  So, again, unlikely.
 
Ohgren?  Sigrun?  Unlikely.  Nathaniel Howe?  Perhaps.  But I think his sense of honor would have him support the Order that took him in, over the nation that trashed his family.  Remember, it's the sitting King/Queen of Ferelden that took away his home.  Justice?  Well, he's a spirit, for one, and he's inhabiting the body of an Orlesian, for two.
 
So where's this loyalty you refer to going to come from?

Why do you throw other races up at me? They have their own culture and are therefore irrelevant. As it happens, I would expect the Dalish and the dwarves to remain loyal to the Dalish and Orzammar. The city elves' loyalty is open to debate, and the mages are thalls of the chantry, and I would instigate religious reform as well as military. As for Justice; well, I thing justice decrees that a nation has command over all the soldiers within it's borders. Oh, and Justice shouldn't really be out of the Fade but by chance.

Nathaniel?-This sort of thing has happened in history; the father disgraced and executed and the son restored to prominence. If Ferelden would do to Howe's son what Edward III did for Roger Mortimer's son then I don't see an issue.

Whether your Cousland would support it is not my concern. If they want to retain the presence of a potentially treacherous organisation in Ferelden, then so be it.

[TJPags]

Wereparrot wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

If loyalty and fealty means anything at all, the Fereldan-born Wardens will stay in Ferelden. You have a very dim view of the concept.

I think you have a dim view of the concept.

Loyalty to a place you happened to have been born is one thing.  Loyalty to a group that took you in and accepted you is another.

You approve of treason, then? You would make war on your own country if Weissaupt ordered it? I'm not saying you can't be reasonably loyal, but there are limits.

You don't exactly have much choice in joining.

And also, you were a Ferelden long before you were a Warden.

First, I hardly think the Wardens are large enough to make war on an entire country.

Second, some Wardens do, in fact, want to join the Wardens - so for them, it is indeed a choice.

Third, not every Warden is a native of Ferelden (see, elves, dwarves) and some were cnceivably nothing more than peasants, with no real future.  They may easily feel more loyalty to the organization that gave them a place to fit in, than a nation they just happened to be born in.

Wereparrot wrote...

As we don't know how citizenship works in Thedas, I'll assume you're not talking about someone who just happens to be born in a country - as in, say, Orlesian parents having their child while passing through Ferelden, or perhaps while living there a brief time.


But, would you consider Riordan a Ferelden?  He says he was born there, but he must have been in Orlais a while, as he seems (to me) to have a bit of an Orlesian accent.

Likewise, we don't know enough about Riordan to say one way or the other.

Well, as I said, to me he has an Orlesian accent.  Since we know the Wardens were exiled and only recently (maybe 20yrs or so) allowed back into Ferelden, he may well have been raised in Orlais, or spent most of his time there.  Does that scenario make someone a Ferelden, or an Orlesian?

Because when speaking of loyalty to your country, at some point, you have to define this, don't you?

Wereparrot wrote...

Moving on to the Wardens themselves, lets look at some of the Wardens we may have.  A City Elf, or a Dalish Elf.  Loyalty to Ferelden?  Unlikely.  Dwarven Noble or Commoner . . even more unlikely.  Mage?  Taken from their parents, raised in the Tower, and freed of that place by the Wardens?  Again, unlikely.  So, perhaps a Cousland.  But would a Cousland accept a ruler disbanding an Order like that, and conscripting its individual members?  My Cousland wouldn't support that at all.
 
Let's see about a few more - Velanna?  Anders?  One's a Dalish Elf who hates humans, the other is a mage who escaped the Tower 7 times, and was dragged back - until the Wardens took him in.  So, again, unlikely.
 
Ohgren?  Sigrun?  Unlikely.  Nathaniel Howe?  Perhaps.  But I think his sense of honor would have him support the Order that took him in, over the nation that trashed his family.  Remember, it's the sitting King/Queen of Ferelden that took away his home.  Justice?  Well, he's a spirit, for one, and he's inhabiting the body of an Orlesian, for two.
 
So where's this loyalty you refer to going to come from?

Why do you throw other races up at me? They have their own culture and are therefore irrelevant. As it happens, I would expect the Dalish and the dwarves to remain loyal to the Dalish and Orzammar. The city elves' loyalty is open to debate, and the mages are thalls of the chantry, and I would instigate religious reform as well as military. As for Justice; well, I thing justice decrees that a nation has command over all the soldiers within it's borders. Oh, and Justice shouldn't really be out of the Fade but by chance.

Nathaniel?-This sort of thing has happened in history; the father disgraced and executed and the son restored to prominence. If Ferelden would do to Howe's son what Edward III did for Roger Mortimer's son then I don't see an issue.

Whether your Cousland would support it is not my concern. If they want to retain the presence of a potentially treacherous organisation in Ferelden, then so be it.

But - those are the Wardens at issue.  The Warden Commander is either a dwarf, an elf, a mage, or a Cousland.  The recruited Wardens from Awakening are an elf, 2 dwarves, Nate Howe, and a spirit living in the dead body of an Orlesian.  These are the people at issue - I'm not throwing them at you or making them up.

But I see in your next statement - about religious reform - where I think you're going.  You're remaking the world in the image you'd prefer it to be.  To me, that means the end of the discussion, as clearly I can't discuss the world as you see it, since I don't know it.

Suffice my end of this to be, that Nate can't be restored to prominence without stripping the Arl from the Wardens - which would, IMO, be a ridiculous 360 in a short time, and indicate that whoever rules Ferelden is quite indecisive.  And finally, if you're going to assume the Wardens are a treacherous organization, exile them just like they were before.  But don't be surprised when they all leave.

[Wereparrot]

[quote]TJPags wrote...

[quote]Wereparrot wrote...

[quote]TJPags wrote...

[quote]Wereparrot wrote...

If loyalty and fealty means anything at all, the Fereldan-born Wardens will stay in Ferelden. You have a very dim view of the concept.
[/quote]

I think you have a dim view of the concept.

Loyalty to a place you happened to have been born is one thing.  Loyalty to a group that took you in and accepted you is another.[/quote]

You approve of treason, then? You would make war on your own country if Weissaupt ordered it? I'm not saying you can't be reasonably loyal, but there are limits.

You don't exactly have much choice in joining.

And also, you were a Ferelden long before you were a Warden.[/quote]

First, I hardly think the Wardens are large enough to make war on an entire country.

Second, some Wardens do, in fact, want to join the Wardens - so for them, it is indeed a choice.

Third, not every Warden is a native of Ferelden (see, elves, dwarves) and some were cnceivably nothing more than peasants, with no real future.  They may easily feel more loyalty to the organization that gave them a place to fit in, than a nation they just happened to be born in.[/quote]

Firstly: never dismiss a militant organisation.

Secondly: yeah ok, but why should this mean the end of national loyalty?

Thirdly: I'm not saying anything about non-Ferelden national Wardens, or elves and dwarves, and peasants may well join the army anyway, so I don't see your point there.

[quote]Wereparrot wrote...
[quote]As we don't know how citizenship works in Thedas, I'll assume you're not talking about someone who just happens to be born in a country - as in, say, Orlesian parents having their child while passing through Ferelden, or perhaps while living there a brief time.


But, would you consider Riordan a Ferelden?  He says he was born there, but he must have been in Orlais a while, as he seems (to me) to have a bit of an Orlesian accent.[/quote]

Likewise, we don't know enough about Riordan to say one way or the other.[/quote]

[quote]Well, as I said, to me he has an Orlesian accent.  Since we know the Wardens were exiled and only recently (maybe 20yrs or so) allowed back into Ferelden, he may well have been raised in Orlais, or spent most of his time there.  Does that scenario make someone a Ferelden, or an Orlesian?

Because when speaking of loyalty to your country, at some point, you have to define this, don't you?[/quote]

Why do you want me to determine the nationality of someone I know nothing about? He may be Fereldan-born but with Fereldan and Orlesian parentage, or Orlesian-born with the same hypothetical parentage. Yet still, he may be a Fereldan Warden who wasn't immediately caught up in the exile because he was stationed elsewhere at the time. I don't think it sounds very much like an Orlesian accent anyway.  It's got more of a lilting manner than your stereotypical Orlesian accent. If either of the two, I would say he was Fereldan, but he may be from the Free Marches.

[quote]Wereparrot wrote...
[quote]Moving on to the Wardens themselves, lets look at some of the Wardens we may have.  A City Elf, or a Dalish Elf.  Loyalty to Ferelden?  Unlikely.  Dwarven Noble or Commoner . . even more unlikely.  Mage?  Taken from their parents, raised in the Tower, and freed of that place by the Wardens?  Again, unlikely.  So, perhaps a Cousland.  But would a Cousland accept a ruler disbanding an Order like that, and conscripting its individual members?  My Cousland wouldn't support that at all.
 
Let's see about a few more - Velanna?  Anders?  One's a Dalish Elf who hates humans, the other is a mage who escaped the Tower 7 times, and was dragged back - until the Wardens took him in.  So, again, unlikely.
 
Ohgren?  Sigrun?  Unlikely.  Nathaniel Howe?  Perhaps.  But I think his sense of honor would have him support the Order that took him in, over the nation that trashed his family.  Remember, it's the sitting King/Queen of Ferelden that took away his home.  Justice?  Well, he's a spirit, for one, and he's inhabiting the body of an Orlesian, for two.
 
So where's this loyalty you refer to going to come from?[/quote]

Why do you throw other races up at me? They have their own culture and are therefore irrelevant. As it happens, I would expect the Dalish and the dwarves to remain loyal to the Dalish and Orzammar. The city elves' loyalty is open to debate, and the mages are thalls of the chantry, and I would instigate religious reform as well as military. As for Justice; well, I thing justice decrees that a nation has command over all the soldiers within it's borders. Oh, and Justice shouldn't really be out of the Fade but by chance.

Nathaniel?-This sort of thing has happened in history; the father disgraced and executed and the son restored to prominence. If Ferelden would do to Howe's son what Edward III did for Roger Mortimer's son then I don't see an issue.

Whether your Cousland would support it is not my concern. If they want to retain the presence of a potentially treacherous organisation in Ferelden, then so be it.
[/quote]

[quote]But - those are the Wardens at issue.  The Warden Commander is either a dwarf, an elf, a mage, or a Cousland.  The recruited Wardens from Awakening are an elf, 2 dwarves, Nate Howe, and a spirit living in the dead body of an Orlesian.  These are the people at issue - I'm not throwing them at you or making them up.[/quote]

I just don't see that they are really relevant apart from Howe; none of them being human.

[quote]
Suffice my end of this to be, that Nate can't be restored to prominence without stripping the Arl from the Wardens - which would, IMO, be a ridiculous 360 in a short time, and indicate that whoever rules Ferelden is quite indecisive.  And finally, if you're going to assume the Wardens are a treacherous organization, exile them just like they were before.  But don't be surprised when they all leave.[/quote]

Like me? Suffice it to say that if I were king, I would confiscate Amaranthine from Rendon, so it would be mine to give back to Nathaniel.

I would hope that not all of them would leave. If you marry Anora, at the beginning of Awakening, some of the dialogue choices point to the Warden actually leaving the Wardens. I would hope that people like this, if indeed the other Fereldan Wardens left, would join the army and bring with them the knowledge of how to make more 'Wardens'. However, if Weissaupt did order an attack on Ferelden, I would arrest those of the Wardens that are from Ferelden. 

Modifié par Wereparrot, 07 mars 2011 - 04:19 .

[Alren]

Have Alistair and Anora Marry to become king and queen

spare loghain and make him a grey warden

fall in love with Leiliana

force Loghain to undergo the dark ritual with morrigan

slay the archdemon and become the biggest hero in the country

DON'T cheat on your love

everyone lives

hooray for mega happy ending