764 réponses à ce sujet

[Qilune]

I have played this game 3 times so far. The first time I played, and my favorite (because I had no idea what I was doing or going to do) was a female elf mage. Of course I romance Alistair, and OF COURSE I didn't harden him (because I don't believe that "everyone is out for themselves"). So in the end Anora (because she's the b-word) gets locked up (or banished), and Alistair becomes king, alone, and he dumps me flat because 1. I spared Loghain from the chop. and 2. he doesn't want to be seen with an elven mage for a lover. oh. my. maker.

But I spared Loghain and believed firmly that despite what others have done in his name (Arl Howe), he was, and could be still, a great, and legendary man; a role model for the common soldier and a fierce leader... he just needed to get away from the politics of being a teryn; he needed forced retirement.

So, he became a Grey Warden. Hardest choice EVER especially when you have Alistair yelling at you and calling foul. Alistair broke my heart, but it was worth having a strategist like Loghain back in the field, leading-not armies and countries-but Grey Wardens. With a man like in your company, the Grey Warden population must have boomed back.

I honestly wish that he could've been a romance option for female wardens. 60-something years old and still freakin hot.

In my second game (female human mage. i love the mage origin), I romanced Alistair again, but this time he became king and married Anora. I spared Loghain for similar reasons, once again got the huffy, pissed remarks from Alistair. Bah. I need someone to sleep with Morrigan.

Now, on to my 3rd game, female human noble, this was a different story. Arl Howe just flat up ****** up everything you knew and cared about, and who's got his back....? Loghain. This time I didn't bother trying to get Anora's approval. I ignored her and her self-serving ways. She lied and denounced myself and Alistair, backing up her father. If I could have beheaded her, I would have. I gave the task of dueling Loghain to Alistair. When it was finished, he just gave my character a little nod, then slaughtered Loghain.

Playing the human noble gave me a different perspective on things. Loghain is also an old man trying to fight his old wars. Sometimes, you need to trim the old so the new can grow.

[Bleachrude]

I think there's 2 origins which I can't see really supporting Loghain being left alive.

Human Noble - Howe is Loghain's right-hand man and given that you are ALSO supposed to be great friends with Eamon and Teagan, there's no way I can justify allowing him to live.

City Elf - SLAVERY? Into the Tevinter imperium? He's got to die plain and simple.

The other ones I can see going either way as Loghain hasn't personally affected you (you JUST joined the Warden when he quit the field)

[JFarr74]

Does his death/joining have any impact on Dragon Age 2?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Other than a comment by Alistair, no.

[JFarr74]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Other than a comment by Alistair, no.

Really?

[GSSAGE7]

Loghain lives: You get insight into the motives behind one of the deeper villians in gaming.
Loghain dies: You ****** off/kill Alistair, and have to deal with Anora for 2 more cutscenes.

As someone who doesn't mind Alistair and dislikes Anora, I always kill Loghain. Although, if I could get Alistair to give the speeches at Denerim and the Coronation (and have the console not completly gloss over Alistair being king as well), I'd probably spare Loghain more often.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Bleachrude wrote...

I think there's 2 origins which I can't see really supporting Loghain being left alive.

Human Noble - Howe is Loghain's right-hand man and given that you are ALSO supposed to be great friends with Eamon and Teagan, there's no way I can justify allowing him to live.

MY HN was not great friends with Eamon and Teagan. In fact, she really hated Eamon. She killed Loghain because she thought he was a mad dog, gone past the point of return. But I could certainly see her, or another human noble, sparing him were circumstances and such different. Loghain is a war hero, a famous and talented general, and a symbol of Ferelden. Anora even hints that Loghain and Howe weren't bosom buddies, Howe was simply a necessity Loghain had to put up with.

City Elf - SLAVERY? Into the Tevinter imperium? He's got to die plain and simple.

Now this would be the Origin, I think, that would have the hardest time justifying sparing Loghain, given the slavery issue. A city elf, unless they have become a hardened Warden, would certainly be justified in taking his sale of elves personally.

The other ones I can see going either way as Loghain hasn't personally affected you (you JUST joined the Warden when he quit the field)

A mage Warden, if you play one that actually liked the Circle, or was sympathetic to Jowan, might take issue with Loghain's alliance with Uldred and the subsequent chaos, or his use of Jowan. A Dalish elf who feels pity or sympathy for the City elves plight might take issue with the slavery.

The dwarves seem the race least effected by any of Loghain's stunts.

My point is, though, that really, any Origin, any Warden, could find reasons to kill or spare Loghain, with enough Role Playing.

[JFarr74]

.......I miss Loghain

[Mystical80]

It depends how you act on the matter of Loghain.

If you act as Alistair's friend and ally or have a personal vendetta against Loghain (for example a city elf Warden that hates him because of the slavery issue), you kill Anora's father.

If you act as a true Grey Warden, you spare Loghain knowing he will be of great use against the Blight and Archdemon.

The fact that Alistair wants Loghain dead shows that he is a poor Grey Warden. He does show the "kingly" code of justice to have Loghain killed, but he forgets to act as Grey Warden clearly stating that Duncan's death must be avenged. He wants the Grey Wardens to be a band of knights upholding a code of honor. In fact, Grey Wardens are exactly the opposite: There is no honor among the Grey Wardens. There's the blight and how you deal with it: all options are allowed.

It depends on your character really. I've done two playthroughs so far. I spared Loghain in one and killed him myself in the other. To be honest, it just feels better to spare him despite Alistair's reaction. Remember what Duncan said to the player and Alistair just before the Battle at Ostagar. "You're both Grey Wardens. I expect each of you to be worthy of that title".

Modifié par Mystical80, 16 avril 2011 - 07:24 .

[GSSAGE7]

Mystical80 wrote...

In fact, Grey Wardens are exactly the opposite: There is no honor among the Grey Wardens. There's the blight and how you deal with it: all options are allowed.

This.
In fact, I recall Gaider once saying something to the effect that Duncan would've conscripted Loghain as well.

[JFarr74]

Mystical80 wrote...

It depends how you act on the matter of Loghain.

If you act as Alistair's friend and ally or have a personal vendetta against Loghain (for example a city elf Warden that hates him because of the slavery issue), you kill Anora's father.

If you act as a true Grey Warden, you spare Loghain knowing he will be of great use against the Blight and Archdemon.

The fact that Alistair wants Loghain dead shows that he is a poor Grey Warden. However, he does show the "kingly" code of justice to have Loghain killed, but he forgets to act as Grey Warden clearly seeing that Duncan's death must be avenged. He wants the Grey Wardens to be a band of knights upholding a code of honor. In fact, Grey Wardens are exactly the opposite: There is no honor among the Grey Wardens. There's the blight and how you deal with it: all options are allowed.

It depends on you character really. I've done two playthroughs so far. I spared Loghain in one and killed him myself in the other. To be honest, it just feels better to spare him despite Alistair's reaction. Remember what Duncan said to the player and Alistair just before the Battle at Ostagar. "You're both Grey Wardens. I expect each of you to be worthy of that title".

Very true, vicrory, no mater what

[Bleachrude]

I STRONGLY disagree with the notion of Loghain being an asset. Nowhere in the storyline do we actually get to see Loghain's personal battle skill...Even with him in the party, you still get surprised by the Horde attacking Denerim instead of Redcliffe.

Everyone keeps saying Loghain's an asset, but nowhere in the game do we ever SEE this helping the PC.

Even the idea of "we need more grey wardens" makes little sense as I rather recruit Captain Kylon, Isabella, Teagan than Loghain.

[Bleachrude]

 Um...I keep hearing Loghain is a tactical asset but nowhere in the storyline do we see Loghain's tactical prowess making ANY difference.

Especially given that even when you do recruit him, he ALSO gets snookered by the Horde attacking Denerim instead of Redcliffe.

If the question is one of "we need more grey wardens" then there's Ser Cauthien, Teagan, Captain Kylon, Isabella et al who realistically should be given the chance to join the grey wardens and they're in the city as well...

I'm also surprised that people think Duncan would recruit him...Cailan's battle plan was "wait for the Orlesian forces (chevaliers and grey wardens) and it was Loghain's plan that they went with BECAUSE of his so-called reputation.

(people seem to froget that Cailain actually had a viable plan but went with Loghain's plan because he trusted Loghain)

[GSSAGE7]

Bleachrude wrote...
If the question is one of "we need more grey wardens" then there's Ser Cauthien, Teagan, Captain Kylon, Isabella et al who realistically should be given the chance to join the grey wardens and they're in the city as well...

Well Isabela vanishes as soon as she teaches the Duelist specilization, Teagan is already going to be fighting the Darkspawn, and Kylon has shown no evidence that he's any good in a fight. Riordan suggested recruiting Loghain, because either way, he dies. He either dies right there in front of his daughter, he dies in the Joining, or he dies fighting the archdemon. After you know about the Archdemon's ressurecion trick, it makes his comment about "pressing reasons for more Grey Wardens" obviously referring to that. Hell, if you ask at Redcliffe how to kill the Archdemon, he expresses surprise that you don't know about that.

As for your disbelief that Duncan would recruit Loghain, keep in mind that he recruits a cutpurse, a gang member, a kin-slayer, a political assassin (um, assassinated someone), and an acomplice to a blood mage's escape.
And Cailan only had a plan in the loosest definition of the word. His "plan" was just waiting for more men, and once he had enough, to continue with his plan of throwing men at the darkspawn. He might as well have started off the battle with "LEEROY JENKINS!!" Sorry, but I distrust any man who commands the lives of an army, and uses the words "boring" and "strategy" in the same sentence.

Modifié par GSSAGE7, 17 avril 2011 - 07:08 .

[Bleachrude]

Er, Cailain's plan is tactically sound...Let the bloody darkspawn take Ostagar and when there's sufficient force, THEN you attack...Not sure why people think this is NOT a strategy. Sun Tzu always said, "only fight when the odds are OVERWHELMINGLY in your favour, if not, fight another day".

Again, Cailain only followed through with Loghain's battleplan because he trusted him...Keep in mind that there was NOTHING preventing Loghain from you know...tellling Duncan and Cailan beforehand "If the battle is going badly, I'm pulling out" He didn't even mention it as a possibility.

As for Duncan, really..you're comparing the relatively small potatoes with simply betraying not only the king BUT the Grey Wardens? Really..I'm surprised ANYONE would follow Loghain since given that attritude, Loghain would quite happily throw you under the bus all the while justifying it to themselves...

As for Alistair...people tend to forget that there's the small problem of Loghain poisioning Arl Eamon (especially if you gave Alistair the repaired amulet you found in Eamon's drawer).

Really...Loghain kills his new family and is directly responsible for the posioning of the Arl who Alistair loves and respects and is indirectly responsible for the death of several dozen people in Redcliffe village and castle (people that Alistair PERSONALLY knows - while Isolde made his life hell, he does remember the rest of Redcliffe fondly)
Seriously...would YOU follow Loghain into battle after Ostagar?

[Mystical80]

would YOU follow Loghain into battle after Ostagar?

Being a Grey Warden is not about whom to follow, or what an individual has done in the past. Only those individuals with the potential to survive the Joining ritual are recruited. Riordan sensed the ability for Loghain to survive it. Loghain has shown to be a good strategist in the past and a renowned warrior. This skill is essentially enough. A Grey Warden has no better skill in arms compared to a regular guard. It's about whether you have the potential to survive the Joining.

At the Landsmeet, there are only three Grey Wardens: the player, Alistair, and Riordan. Riordan knows that at least one of them is supposed to die when defeating the archdemon (he doesn't know about Morrigan's ritual obviously). This leaves a small chance for "errors". If Riordan would have had the ability, he would likely have recruited more Grey Wardens in the time left to face the Archdemon. Sadly, he probably ran out of Archdemon blood.

Again, a grey warden is not a "good character". If the Grey Wardens as group would be in Baldur's Gate, then they would probably be classified as chaotic neutral. Remember, it's about the blight, the archdemon and how you accomplish your goal. If that means recruiting a criminal in order to have a better chance at the blight, then you would be stupid not to recruit the mentioned criminal.

[Bleachrude]

I'm not talking about "good" or anything like that...

Im talking about a character who would NOT tell you his whole battle plan.

If you were a Grey Warden and Loghain said "ok, I want you to flank the darkspawn here and I'll flank them on the other side", exactly why would you trust him that he would actually follow through with his plan?

That's my I can't see any Grey Warden actually following Loghain since you would be second-guessing his plans...Sure, the Grey Wardens aren't a knightly order, but you do have to TRUST your fellow "brother/sister".

Again...I point out that there was nothing preventing Loghain from simply telling Duncan and Cailan BEFOREHAND that he would quit the battle if he thought it was too desperate...

[Mystical80]

Bleachrude wrote...

If you were a Grey Warden and Loghain said "ok, I want you to flank the darkspawn here and I'll flank them on the other side", exactly why would you trust him that he would actually follow through with his plan?

That's my I can't see any Grey Warden actually following Loghain since you would be second-guessing his plans...Sure, the Grey Wardens aren't a knightly order, but you do have to TRUST your fellow "brother/sister".

It depends on whether he is a grey warden or not. If he's just Loghain the strategist, then as a Grey Warden, you don't really care about what he says. A Grey Warden is only interested in defeating the blight. Whatever tactics ordinary humans can come up with is trivial as long as the ends justify the means (blight defeated).

Now, if he's a Grey Warden, then yes, you would trust him on his word. As a matter of fact, you remember him being a Grey Warden in a dialogue option after he's recruited. Once a warden, the past is forgotten. Any ties to previous positions are gone. You're now equals determined to stop the blight. Grey Warden Loghain is not interested in Orlais being an enemy. All he wants is Ferelden saved and the blight stopped.

Bleachrude wrote...

Again...I point out that there was
nothing preventing Loghain from simply telling Duncan and Cailan
BEFOREHAND that he would quit the battle if he thought it was too
desperate...

He had two reasons not to tell them.

He disliked Cailan's plans to ask for Orlesian support (being pretty much anti-Orlais on anything)

The second reason is tied to his daughter Anora. Loghain feared Cailan would divorce Anora and re-marry the Orlesian empress. This mainly due to Anora not being able to give Cailan an heir to the throne. Mind you that the second reason is verified somewhat in the "Return to Ostagar" DLC.

Loghain did not quit the battle because things were too "desperate". He quit the battle because he wanted to. He knew that Cailan and the Grey Wardens would lose without his support and he capitalized on that. He'd rather sacrifice the men and women at Ostagar than seeing his daughter removed from the throne and Orlais back in Ferelden again.

Modifié par Mystical80, 17 avril 2011 - 03:56 .

[JFarr74]

He should've been in Dragon Age 2!!!

[Mystical80]

JFarr74 wrote...

He should've been in Dragon Age 2!!!

If he survives the events in Dragon Age Origins, then he ends up as a Grey Warden in Orlais, which is far to the southwest of Kirkwall. It would not make sense to have him in Kirkwall all of a sudden.

[frostajulie]

Loghain brands you a traitor, along with all the other Grey wardens but he KNOWS you are not a traitor. He KNOWS you are in fact innocent of the crimes he accuses you of but he comes after you and your party and tries to kill you. Irrespective of your origins this alone is enough to warrant the death of Loghain McLIarpants. I love killing him every single time.

[Mystical80]

frostajulie wrote...
Irrespective of your origins this alone is enough to warrant the death of Loghain McLIarpants.

I bet you and Alistair get along very well then

[GSSAGE7]

Bleachrude wrote...

Let the bloody darkspawn take Ostagar
and when there's sufficient force, THEN you attack...Not sure why people
think this is NOT a strategy.

It's not a strategy, because one
of the biggest parts of letting your opponent taking a base without that
many casualties, is to make sure that your ENTIRE ARMY isn't still
there. It's pretty clear that he's not letting them take Ostagar, he's
honestly trying to beat them.

[Bleachrude]

re: Cailan's strategy

Of course Cailan was trying to beat them...he thought he could BECAUSE he was following Loghain;s battleplan. Darkspawn do not "hold" ground a la a normal army so the fear that they will dig into Ostagar and be hard to uproot is not one opposing generals have to worry about.

re: Anora
Personally I don't believe for a second that Anora was so helpless/unaware....In the entire DA:origins storyline we're told that Anora really runs the country and we're shown how well "devious" she can be to hold on to her power.

There's no way that Anora did NOT know about the communiques to the Orlesians.

(Indeed, in one of the fanfics I toyed with, a major subplot was the revelation that it was Anora who had originally brokered the conversation with Celene - unlike Cailan, she actually burned the letters afterward. I've always seen Anora as one person quite willing to let go of the past - remember, she was quick to sell out either you, her rescuers or her own father depending on how the wind blew during the Landsmeet)

re: Return to Ostagar
Unless you go by David Gaider's statements, RtO actually shows that Cailan was quite loyal to Anora since Eamon had been trying for a year to get him to leave Anora and apparently Cailan had been quite forceful in denying Eamon..

As an aside, the poisoning of Eamon and the massacre of the Couslands are two incidents which make Loghain's defence of "avoiding an unwinnable battle" very suspect. The Guerrins and the Couslands are the two most powerful noble families in Ferelden and most assuredly would have wanted answers as to what the hell happened.

Interesting how both of them got taken out prior to Ostagar isn't it?

[frostajulie]

Mystical80 wrote...

frostajulie wrote...
Irrespective of your origins this alone is enough to warrant the death of Loghain McLIarpants.

I bet you and Alistair get along very well then

We do but My PC;'s Get along better with Zev