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Should Loghain Live or Die?


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#151
Ryzaki

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Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@Persphone: Sorry if I'm sort of on your a** about the whole affection thing. Its just personally I've seen quite a few bad relationships in my life (thankfully I wasn't personally involved in them but...) it leaves an impression and nothing seems simple anymore.


That's alright.

I've been in some relationship horrors. I've also seen my father cheat on my mother. Cheaters can expect little understanding from me. Part of the reason why I am never going to marry is that I want a 100% faithful hubby and want to be a 100% faithful wife. And that just isn't possible, it seems.:(


Wow. An optimist.
Edit: The above is not meant to be snarky. Seriously it isn't.

I'd settle for an open relationship. I don't mind who my partner sleeps with. I just want them to stay safe and protected and for us to show each other the uptmost respect and affection. Respect and honesty. I want few secrets between us, no fear of telling the other that we desire someone else in a sexual way.

I want if the love starts to fade us to be able to tell te other with no shame and no fear exactly how we feel. I want an amicable relationship with no lies and secret lovers in the background.

I guess I'm a bit of an optimist too.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:25 .


#152
Lord_Anthonior

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Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@Persphone: Sorry if I'm sort of on your a** about the whole affection thing. Its just personally I've seen quite a few bad relationships in my life (thankfully I wasn't personally involved in them but...) it leaves an impression and nothing seems simple anymore.


That's alright.

I've been in some relationship horrors. I've also seen my father cheat on my mother. Cheaters can expect little understanding from me. Part of the reason why I am never going to marry is that I want a 100% faithful hubby and want to be a 100% faithful wife. And that just isn't possible, it seems.:(


Sorry to argue on this one, but I have to say that 100% faighful husbands and wives do exist, I'm not married yet but when I'll get I'm gonna be a 100% faighful husband to my wife since that's the way I was tought in my family, my parents never cheat one another and both of them tought my brother and me to respect our girlfriends and in the future our wives.

As for your reply to my post, I do accept the point of risking an entire army for a fool, if we look at it like that, the sons didn't measured to the father then, Loghain did everything he could to save Maric not only because he was his friend but he earned his respect, a thing that it seems didn't happened with Cailan and even less with alistair. Probably that's another reason why I never let the other half brother fool to sit on the throne so I do see your point about the risks. :)

#153
Face of Evil

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I did cheat on Leliana that one time, but my life was sort of on the line there. Hey, what happens in Redcliffe Castle stays in Redcliffe Castle.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:50 .


#154
bri193

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@Ryzaki and Persephone

Been following your arguments, you both have some valid points, but I think you are both missing some crucial points. And Persephone, had you not compared Ferelden to Elizabethan England, you probably would have turned me to your point-of-view...

DA:O regardless of which origin story you select, is about vengeance. Remember, you role-play a character who had 2 missions, one dealing with the darkspawn, the other inding justice and/or retribution for bad things done you and/or your family/friends. How you role-play this should govern the decisions you made, not meta-gaming, or, gods forbid, events in Elizabethan England...

In my only complete play-through (human female rogue), my daggers were out for any of the ruling class that had a sniff of involvement, or prior knowledge, or guilt by association with what transpired at Highever. There was no way any of these people would be spared, regardless of the impact this would have on the larger political picture. Loghain's so-called treason was small potatoes in my character's view. It was his association with Howe that damned both him and his daughter.

In my playthrough, I arranged for Anora and hardened Alistair to marry, played Anora for her support at Landsmeet, and then killed Loghain myself, I was disappointed I could not do the same with Anora, so saw to it that the shrew was jailed, with wimpy Alistair as sole king. I didn't give a toss about a 'good' ending for Fereldan, I was done with the place after the blight was over, and the political aftermath was not my problem.

I am not saying this ending should be canon, but it sure was satisfying for my character. After all what happened, trying to make it all good with everyone at the end seemed just silly to me, and most certainly out-of-character.

#155
Persephone

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bri193 wrote...

@Ryzaki and Persephone
Been following your arguments, you both have some valid points, but I think you are both missing some crucial points. And Persephone, had you not compared Ferelden to Elizabethan England, you probably would have turned me to your point-of-view...
DA:O regardless of which origin story you select, is about vengeance. Remember, you role-play a character who had 2 missions, one dealing with the darkspawn, the other inding justice and/or retribution for bad things done you and/or your family/friends. How you role-play this should govern the decisions you made, not meta-gaming, or, gods forbid, events in Elizabethan England...
In my only complete play-through (human female rogue), my daggers were out for any of the ruling class that had a sniff of involvement, or prior knowledge, or guilt by association with what transpired at Highever. There was no way any of these people would be spared, regardless of the impact this would have on the larger political picture. Loghain's so-called treason was small potatoes in my character's view. It was his association with Howe that damned both him and his daughter.
In my playthrough, I arranged for Anora and hardened Alistair to marry, played Anora for her support at Landsmeet, and then killed Loghain myself, I was disappointed I could not do the same with Anora, so saw to it that the shrew was jailed, with wimpy Alistair as sole king. I didn't give a toss about a 'good' ending for Fereldan, I was done with the place after the blight was over, and the political aftermath was not my problem.
I am not saying this ending should be canon, but it sure was satisfying for my character. After all what happened, trying to make it all good with everyone at the end seemed just silly to me, and most certainly out-of-character.


Hey Bri,

I did not compare Ferelden to Elizabethan England. Elizabethan England is set LONG after Elizabeth actually inherited the crown, it was during her Gloriana years. (After 1588) I was comparing it to the England Elizabeth inherited from her sister Mary in 1558. Big difference there.

To me and most of my Wardens the tale of DAO is not about personal vengeance or retribution.

I try to role-play as much as possible. My Wardens know nothing of the cutscenes at Ostagar (While they are at the Tower) or in Denerim. However, especially my Couslands, they care about Ferelden a great deal. From reading the books, I implement that knowledge as what they were taught of the occupation etc. My canon Cousland, the (anti-) heroine of my FF (Link is in my sig) sacrifices everything she ever loved to end the Blight and protect the country her family has served so proudly. She rarely acts on impulse and knows the emptiness of revenge and bloodlust. Without proof positive of their involvement, no hostility on her part. Besides, Anora had nothing to do with Howe, condemning her based on her father's political alliance with the most powerful ally to be had, is both unjust & petty in my eyes.

My Wardens usually try to do what is best for everyone involved, not what gives her the most satisfaction. Besides, there is fulfilment in sacrifice. In making a nation thrive, in granting a fallen hero redemption, in giving your country a good ruler, in doing what will benefit the nation. He/she can be ruthless there, my canon girl had no patience with Alistair's hissy fit at the Landsmeet. She knows that Anora will have matters well in hand, she trusts skill and experience over blood and childish antics. Just how I see it, of course.

#156
Cutlass Jack

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Persephone wrote...

I've been in some relationship horrors. I've also seen my father cheat on my mother. Cheaters can expect little understanding from me. Part of the reason why I am never going to marry is that I want a 100% faithful hubby and want to be a 100% faithful wife. And that just isn't possible, it seems.:(


With the right person anything is possible. If you are willing to work for it. I've seen many marriages break apart and I decided that when married, it would be for the right reasons, and with the right person. We're going on 16 years now (more than double what my parents lasted) and just as happy as day one.

We do have something of an open marriage on one level though. I'm always there to lend an ear when she complains about what an *explative* Kaidan in ME2 is. Or how badly her 'other' husband Alistair acted in Awakening. And she's equally understanding when I talk about Tali or Leliana. And long are our discussions on the hazards of licking lamposts in winter and wrestling Dwarven roasts.

It always amuses me what people must think if they overheard us talking about Bioware games.  Image IPB

#157
Wereparrot

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Persephone wrote...

Lord_Anthonior wrote...

I used to kill him for the desertion, should he have not deserted the field of battle then I would have forgive him for the other crimes even the hire hit with Zevran, but he commit treason by leaving the field of battle in a decietful way.

If he would have come up with a plan, or mention another strategy to the king at least to let it be known, then that would've been a strategy move, but leaving him without anyone knowing then that's treason and treason as far as I know is paid with the death penalty.

Anyway I don't have anything against Loghain just that betrayal is a serious matter in military and for the well of a country, so my warden executes Loghain and put Anora to the throne alone, maybe without her father's manipulations she could be a very good and clever Queen. As for alistair...meh..he can be out of the wardens, get drunk, man up in the future if he appears in more games or be executed, is not something I care about.


You think Cailan, who is SOOOOOOOOO bored by strategies and entirely enraptured by legends, would listen? Tactical retreat ain't treason. Read "The Stolen Throne", esp. about the Battle Of West Hill to understand his decision better.


Loghain's was more of a dessertion. He had no right to make a withdrawal of any kind, since the king was in command. This decision would be Cailin's, idiot or not.

But is Loghain's crime treason? The accusations levied against him by Alistair and others was that he killed Cailin. This is treason, but Loghain clearly did no such thing, although his actions ultimately led to his death. But that leads me to ask if he imagined Cailin's death, which is also treason. However, this can't be proved either way, especially since the battle was salvageable even after Loghain's dessertion, if only with far better tactics. The case against Loghain then, if only for treason, must be thrown out due to lack of evidence.

But should he even be tried for treason? In game events would suggest not. At Eamon's estate Anora, still as Queen Regnant, gives Loghain, in confidence with the Warden, what is effectively the royal prerogative of mercy (although no one else gets to hear this, and you have the choice of honouring it or not).  

I believe Eamon is the real traitor of the piece for levying war against the Queen. Yes I said war, regardless of how peaceable his uprising actually is.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 21 janvier 2011 - 09:11 .


#158
JFarr74

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Calm down everyone...I was just wondering if Loghain should live or die and if Bhelen or Harrowmont should be king.

#159
Sjofn

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Cutlass Jack wrote...
We do have something of an open marriage on one level though. I'm always there to lend an ear when she complains about what an *explative* Kaidan in ME2 is. Or how badly her 'other' husband Alistair acted in Awakening. And she's equally understanding when I talk about Tali or Leliana. And long are our discussions on the hazards of licking lamposts in winter and wrestling Dwarven roasts.

It always amuses me what people must think if they overheard us talking about Bioware games.  Image IPB


Haha, my husband and I totally do the same thing. He listens patiently while I wail about how Alistair killed himself for meeeeeeee even thought I told him not toooooo and no one caaaaaaared what the heeeeeell (I actually romance Zevran more often, but his romance isn't as likely to end in tears, so I don't bring him up much), and I smile indulgently when he says nice things about Miranda (even though I hates her and the LEER CAM).

Ah, gamer love. :wub:

#160
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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JFarr74 wrote...

Calm down everyone...I was just wondering if Loghain should live or die and if Bhelen or Harrowmont should be king.



I personally recommend sparing Loghain at least once. And, if you are looking for better long term outcomes for the dwarves, then Bhelen would be your best choice. With or without the anvil.

But if you want to roleplay, choose whoever clicks best with your character.

#161
Bigdoser

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Yeah you should at least spare him once he is quite an interesting character to talk to

#162
JFarr74

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I made Bhelen king and i'll let Loghain live

#163
ZerbanDaGreat1

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I think Loghain should live regardless of whether you think of him as an anti-hero, anti-villain or straight villain.



People only have one life to give. Kill him, and he's gone forever. But why should it end there? I say cruel mercy. Let him live, force him into an order that he despises, then force him to work with a race that he hates and distrusts. Make him dedicate his life to suffering for everything he did, and work towards making it better.



Don't let him kill the Archdemon either. That's the sissy way out.

#164
Wereparrot

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I don't think this has been mentioned before (I may be wrong) but lately I've wondered if Loghain deserted at Ostagar on Cailan's orders. Maybe Cailan told Loghain that, if the battle appear to him to be going ill, he was to flee so he could fight another day. Cailan would not have told anyone other than Loghain of this plan, because if he did it might have sown discord in the ranks, and no one else needed to know anyway. I am not suggesting that Cailan told Loghain to frame the Wardens; he would not have thought that far ahead. Maybe Loghain panicked at his orders post-battle and found the Wardens to be a suitable scapegoat, possibly on the advice of Howe. Of course, this theory paints Cailan as being slightly more intelligent than has been previously believed, and since the order came directly from the king, it would mean that Loghain must be cleared of all charges of treason/regicide (whichever you prefer, they're the same thing really), should this theory be correct.

#165
USArmyParatrooper

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Wereparrot wrote...

I don't think this has been mentioned before (I may be wrong) but lately I've wondered if Loghain deserted at Ostagar on Cailan's orders. Maybe Cailan told Loghain that, if the battle appear to him to be going ill, he was to flee so he could fight another day. Cailan would not have told anyone other than Loghain of this plan, because if he did it might have sown discord in the ranks, and no one else needed to know anyway. I am not suggesting that Cailan told Loghain to frame the Wardens; he would not have thought that far ahead. Maybe Loghain panicked at his orders post-battle and found the Wardens to be a suitable scapegoat, possibly on the advice of Howe. Of course, this theory paints Cailan as being slightly more intelligent than has been previously believed, and since the order came directly from the king, it would mean that Loghain must be cleared of all charges of treason/regicide (whichever you prefer, they're the same thing really), should this theory be correct.


You can pretty much make anything up (as in, writing your own back story), as long as it isn't disproved by existing context. But to me this seems extremely unlikely. Calain is absolutely confident that the battle will be won, and this is to the point that he ignores Loghain's plea not to participate in the battle, and the Gray Wardens' plea to wait for reinforcements. And the way he practically worships the Wardens I doubt he would make plans to leave them for dead, let alone himself and his men. Also, after Flemmeth rescues there is some dialog where it's implied the battle was going well when Loghain deserted.

I always kill Loghain, because immoral tyrant scumbags are a petpeeve of mine.

#166
Riloux

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Loghain's ****ing nuts. I don't care how popular he was, I cannot sympathize. Let's make a list, shall we?



Poisoned Eamon.

Abandoned Cailan and Duncan.

Clueless about what Grey Wardens do.

Hired Zevran to kill the remaining Grey Wardens.

Imprisoned Riordan.

Contracted slavers.

Allowed Howe to continue existing.

Paranoid about Orlais and would rather fight an imaginary war than stop the Blight.

Started a civil war.



If we didn't stop him, and he wiped out all the Grey Wardens, bye bye Ferelden.

#167
Incognito JC

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I spare Loghain because of one totally game-irrelevant reason; Simon Templeman. As in Kain. As in Legacy of Kain/Soul Reaver.

#168
Wereparrot

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USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

I don't think this has been mentioned before (I may be wrong) but lately I've wondered if Loghain deserted at Ostagar on Cailan's orders. Maybe Cailan told Loghain that, if the battle appear to him to be going ill, he was to flee so he could fight another day. Cailan would not have told anyone other than Loghain of this plan, because if he did it might have sown discord in the ranks, and no one else needed to know anyway. I am not suggesting that Cailan told Loghain to frame the Wardens; he would not have thought that far ahead. Maybe Loghain panicked at his orders post-battle and found the Wardens to be a suitable scapegoat, possibly on the advice of Howe. Of course, this theory paints Cailan as being slightly more intelligent than has been previously believed, and since the order came directly from the king, it would mean that Loghain must be cleared of all charges of treason/regicide (whichever you prefer, they're the same thing really), should this theory be correct.


You can pretty much make anything up (as in, writing your own back story), as long as it isn't disproved by existing context. But to me this seems extremely unlikely. Calain is absolutely confident that the battle will be won, and this is to the point that he ignores Loghain's plea not to participate in the battle, and the Gray Wardens' plea to wait for reinforcements. And the way he practically worships the Wardens I doubt he would make plans to leave them for dead, let alone himself and his men. Also, after Flemmeth rescues there is some dialog where it's implied the battle was going well when Loghain deserted.

I always kill Loghain, because immoral tyrant scumbags are a petpeeve of mine.


We are only privy to what happened at the war council, and know nothing of any tactics discussed privately between Cailan and Loghain. You have missed the point regarding Cailan. Obviously he appears to be supremely confident, but what happens behind the scenes? You have a very one-dimensional view of what happened if you only look at Cailan's apparent attitude. What Alistair says at Flemeth's hut cannot be relied on, because Loghain was the one in the battle and so had infinitely more authority than Alistair to judge the flow of the battle.

#169
Ferretinabun

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Wereparrot - your theory hinges on Cailan planning on committing suicide. Why would he do that.

#170
Wereparrot

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Riloux wrote...

Loghain's ****ing nuts. I don't care how popular he was, I cannot sympathize. Let's make a list, shall we?

Poisoned Eamon.


Politics. Eamon was not merely a rival, he was an enemy. Prevention is better than cure, especially in this case. And let's be clear, Eamon plotted against Anora. This is treason.
 

Abandoned Cailan and Duncan.


A tactical decision on the spur of the moment, and for which I am proposing an alterrnate explanation for.


Clueless about what Grey Wardens do.


So are you untill Riordan explains it to you late in the game.


Hired Zevran to kill the remaining Grey Wardens.


Loghain feared they would side with Eamon and rebel against Anora, and he is at least partially correct in this.


Imprisoned Riordan.


Why not? He was another potential traitor to Anora.


Contracted slavers.

 
Fair point, but I suspect Howe had a lot of influence here.


Allowed Howe to continue existing.


It would have been counter productive to execute Howe, and Loghain was, to his credit, bent on unity.


Paranoid about Orlais.


Why shouldn't he be? He knows what the Orlesion occupation was like, you don't.

Started a civil war.


No, the bannorn took up arms against him.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 17 février 2011 - 01:37 .


#171
Wereparrot

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Ferretinabun wrote...

Wereparrot - your theory hinges on Cailan planning on committing suicide. Why would he do that.


No. It would've been a back up plan. Cailan did think the battle would go well, but that doesn't mean he didn't make arrangements to provide a surety if it all went wrong.

#172
Riloux

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Exactly. He's nuts. His motivation for doing all of this was paranoia. Literally nuts.

Paranoid about Orlais.

Why shouldn't he be? He knows what the Orlesion occupation was like, you don't.
Started a civil war.

No, the bannorn took up arms against him. 


Obviously. He tried to force them to swear featly to him, and came back from a massive battle with shifty excuses.

Modifié par Riloux, 17 février 2011 - 01:45 .


#173
Wereparrot

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Riloux wrote...

Exactly. He's nuts. His motivation for doing all of this was paranoia. Literally nuts.


But you don't know what it was like, so I don't think anyone here can sit in judgement of him in this.


Obviously. He tried to force them to swear featly to him, and came back from a massive battle with shifty excuses.


That the Banns took up arms against him is due to his poor diplomacy, and I don't think it should concern us.

#174
USArmyParatrooper

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Wereparrot, Loghain was in a battle? Really? Because I seem to remember him literally turning his back on the true warriors who were actually in the battle.



If it was planned (with) the king, you would have to subscribe to the notion that Loghain's public arguments with the Calain were all a ruse, as well as Calain's proclaimations of an easy, glorious victory. And IF the king thought it could go badly, why didn't he do as the Wardens suggested and wait for reinforcements?



As I said, you can roll play by adding any backstory you wish. But there is zero evidence that even hints at your claim that Loghain ducking out of the fight was blessed off by the king.

#175
USArmyParatrooper

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Dude, Loghain threatened the Bannorn and every other faction should they "shurk their duties to the throne." i.e. not follow him. He even told Anora he intended to put them in their place.



Loghain didn't just run away from the key battle (and then covenienty put himself in charge). He used lies, murder and slavery to stay in power.



Yep, turn his head into a kickball.