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No way to not take Wynne in the Circle Tower huh?


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#26
IanPolaris

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HolyAvenger wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

To keep it on topic, wynne also lectures the HN about how to be a king!  As if someone raised in the circle tower knows more than someone who is a member of the second highest family in ferelden about these things...  It's more annoying with a DN, actually.


Yes, imagine a sixty-year old with all sorts of life experience trying to give some advice to a young twenty-something facing difficult challenges. Unbelievable, the nerve of her ...


I don't care if Wynne was a 600 year old, it's not wise to talk about things outside your own experience and expertise in an authoritative manner to those that do have such expertise and especially not when you are as badly wrong as frequently as Wynne usually is.

-Polaris

#27
Shadow of Light Dragon

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There is one perfectly good reason to keep Wynne alive:



Magical bosom banters.

#28
ejoslin

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IanPolaris wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

To keep it on topic, wynne also lectures the HN about how to be a king!  As if someone raised in the circle tower knows more than someone who is a member of the second highest family in ferelden about these things...  It's more annoying with a DN, actually.


Yes, imagine a sixty-year old with all sorts of life experience trying to give some advice to a young twenty-something facing difficult challenges. Unbelievable, the nerve of her ...


I don't care if Wynne was a 600 year old, it's not wise to talk about things outside your own experience and expertise in an authoritative manner to those that do have such expertise and especially not when you are as badly wrong as frequently as Wynne usually is.

-Polaris


Exactly.  Wynne does not know what she does not know, obviously, which means her advice is made out of ignorance.  It doesn't matter how old she is, she has ZERO king experience.  Whereas a HN and DN would be trained in that from people who actually DO have a clue.

I'm 42.  I will freely admit that I'm not an expert on all things.  I would not venture to tell, oh, say a 27 year old doctor fresh out of residency about how to practice medicine.  They may be younger and have very little experience, but they definitely have more training than me and a better theoretical base than I'll ever have.

#29
HolyAvenger

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Yeah as a Senior Enchanter and potential First Enchanter of the Circle she has no experience of politics and leadership. None at all. Nada.



You might not like her. Fine. You might not like her advice. Fine. But you can't seriously expect me to believe that she shouldn't be offering it.

#30
ejoslin

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HolyAvenger wrote...

Yeah as a Senior Enchanter and potential First Enchanter of the Circle she has no experience of politics and leadership. None at all. Nada.

You might not like her. Fine. You might not like her advice. Fine. But you can't seriously expect me to believe that she shouldn't be offering it.


Potential?  She turned it down.  She did not get her trial-by-fire on leadership there.  She's well liked in the circle which is why she was offered the position.  Not politically acute, nor does she have a wish to be.   She doesn't even know enough to know what she doesn't know.

You really think being an old lady whom everyone likes, who has no training *at all* in politics and never held a real leadership position has more knowledge of this than someone who, from childhood, was trained for it? 

Ok.  we'll have to agree to disagree.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 janvier 2011 - 01:12 .


#31
HolyAvenger

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Lets just say I don't think you get offered the job without being at the very least competent at politicking. With the various factions and so forth, getting and keeping enough support for the role appears to be no easy task.



I don't get this training business. I haven't played the DN origin yet, but I have played the HN and nothing in that indicates the HN is all that awesome at politics (at rightly so, should the player choose to roleplay in another direction). Leadership is not at all like medical training (strawman analogy), in that there far more importance attached to weight of experience rather than theoretical training. Yes Wynne is wrong in certain circumstances, she's only human. But to sideline her as naive or lacking in insight into human nature (the essence of leadership/politics, imo) is to be willfully blind about her as a character.



Indeed, agree to disagree it is.

#32
ejoslin

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HolyAvenger wrote...

Lets just say I don't think you get offered the job without being at the very least competent at politicking. With the various factions and so forth, getting and keeping enough support for the role appears to be no easy task.

I don't get this training business. I haven't played the DN origin yet, but I have played the HN and nothing in that indicates the HN is all that awesome at politics (at rightly so, should the player choose to roleplay in another direction). Leadership is not at all like medical training (strawman analogy), in that there far more importance attached to weight of experience rather than theoretical training. Yes Wynne is wrong in certain circumstances, she's only human. But to sideline her as naive or lacking in insight into human nature (the essence of leadership/politics, imo) is to be willfully blind about her as a character.

Indeed, agree to disagree it is.


Leadership is NOT a trained ability?  Knowing how to run a nation isn't something you learn?  Are you serious?  While some people have a natural talent for it, they still need to learn HOW.  It's not something that is easy, nor is it something that we're born knowing.

And I would just assume that the child of the second most powerful man in the nation would be raised in such a way that they know how to run things as well.  After all, when your father and older brother leave, you're left to, ummm, run the teyrnir.  It's not quite the same as, say, your parents leaving their kid alone for the weekend.  You are left to run a major territory with a skeletal army.  I cannot imagine you HAVEN'T been trained.

DN is obviously trained as well.

Edit: Since you didn't like the medical training, how about telling a new lawyer how to practice law?  That may be more apt anyway, though I would think that governance is a bit more complicated.

Edit: And age does not equal education nor wisdom.  It means life experience, but when the majority of that life has been spent in a sheltered circle, you're not even going to have much of that.

Yet another edit:  Can't you like Wynne but acknowledge her flaws?  Wynne talks to hear her own voice, even when she has nothing to say :)

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 janvier 2011 - 01:53 .


#33
ICevoL

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If someone were able to create a mod called "Leave Wynne on the first floor of the Circle Tower" (or something like that), they'd be a hero. I don't like dragging her with me through the tower every time, but I don't want to kill her on the first floor, either. I am beyond tired of seeing that woman's Fade dream.

I would think this would be entirely possible to mod for the PC, though I have no toolset experience. Since you can kill Wynne (unlike Oghren for the Paragon quest), she is clearly not required to be in the party for the Circle Tower quest to be completed. I would picture this working by adding a new dialog line like:

(Cunning) Why don't you stay here and guard the children? My companions and I can handle this.

The check would be for Cunning = 10 so it would always pass Posted Image

The mod would then set the flag for "Wynne is dead" to drop the barrier and not force her into the party. Once the PC has dealt with Uldred and triggers the cut scene with Greagoir back on the first floor, the flag for "Wynne is dead" would be removed and she'd be available for recruitment if the PC wanted.

I'm sure it's more difficult than I'm thinking it would be, but man... I'd love to be able to ditch the old biddy without killing her.

#34
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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God, if someone could mod Wynne out of the Broken Circle quest, so I don't have to see her irritating Fade dream yet again, I would like sacrifice one peasant per day for a whole year in their honor.

#35
ejoslin

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Gah, don't mind me.  I was looking at the wrong thing.  Moving along now...

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 janvier 2011 - 06:00 .


#36
Tellervo

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ICevoL wrote...

If someone were able to create a mod called "Leave Wynne on the first floor of the Circle Tower" (or something like that), they'd be a hero.


^This.  Her dream is infinitely more annoying than anything else in the rest of the Fade.  While sad and in character and blah blah blah, I just can't make myself care any more.

#37
IanPolaris

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Tellervo wrote...

ICevoL wrote...

If someone were able to create a mod called "Leave Wynne on the first floor of the Circle Tower" (or something like that), they'd be a hero.


^This.  Her dream is infinitely more annoying than anything else in the rest of the Fade.  While sad and in character and blah blah blah, I just can't make myself care any more.


Agreed.  Just how is it that a Senior Enchanter of the Circle and self-appointed "The Fade Shines Out of My Bum" Wynne can be so incompetant in the Fade.  Morrigan shows far more competance and Niall does as well.

-Polaris

#38
mousestalker

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IanPolaris wrote...

Tellervo wrote...

ICevoL wrote...

If someone were able to create a mod called "Leave Wynne on the first floor of the Circle Tower" (or something like that), they'd be a hero.


^This.  Her dream is infinitely more annoying than anything else in the rest of the Fade.  While sad and in character and blah blah blah, I just can't make myself care any more.


Agreed.  Just how is it that a Senior Enchanter of the Circle and self-appointed "The Fade Shines Out of My Bum" Wynne can be so incompetant in the Fade.  Morrigan shows far more competance and Niall does as well.

-Polaris


The Fade shines out of her bum. She's old, it's hard for her to twist her head that way, and mirrors are rare in Ferelden. The Fade is always with her, but she herself has rarely seen it.

#39
Verly

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Wynn is an old bitty, it depends on my Character if they like her or not...it's really fun to mock her though, (griffens!!), but then again, I love to make Ducan sigh, and I LOVE him. lol

#40
Zjarcal

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ICevoL wrote...

If someone were able to create a mod called "Leave Wynne on the first floor of the Circle Tower" (or something like that), they'd be a hero. I don't like dragging her with me through the tower every time, but I don't want to kill her on the first floor, either. I am beyond tired of seeing that woman's Fade dream.

I would think this would be entirely possible to mod for the PC, though I have no toolset experience. Since you can kill Wynne (unlike Oghren for the Paragon quest), she is clearly not required to be in the party for the Circle Tower quest to be completed. I would picture this working by adding a new dialog line like:

(Cunning) Why don't you stay here and guard the children? My companions and I can handle this.

The check would be for Cunning = 10 so it would always pass Posted Image

The mod would then set the flag for "Wynne is dead" to drop the barrier and not force her into the party. Once the PC has dealt with Uldred and triggers the cut scene with Greagoir back on the first floor, the flag for "Wynne is dead" would be removed and she'd be available for recruitment if the PC wanted.

I'm sure it's more difficult than I'm thinking it would be, but man... I'd love to be able to ditch the old biddy without killing her.


Not only is this idea AMAZING, it really sounds as if it could be done since Wynne really isn't required for the quest to be completed. Now if only I had the necessary toolset experience... :(

EDIT: And lol at the 10 cunning requirement... :P

Modifié par Zjarcal, 27 janvier 2011 - 07:52 .


#41
Persephone

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HolyAvenger wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

To keep it on topic, wynne also lectures the HN about how to be a king!  As if someone raised in the circle tower knows more than someone who is a member of the second highest family in ferelden about these things...  It's more annoying with a DN, actually.


Yes, imagine a sixty-year old with all sorts of life experience trying to give some advice to a young twenty-something facing difficult challenges. Unbelievable, the nerve of her ...


Age does not equal wisdom. Or tact. Or respect. Wynne is the living proof of this.

#42
Redcoat

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What irritates me about her is not that acts in the "mentor" role (since that's really what her position in the tower was) but that she seems to think she's a Grey Warden when she's not, and her view on the Grey Wardens seems to be a storybook "knight in shining armour" perspective which clashes with the reality of the setting. If you use the mod that restores Wynne's confrontation with a blood mage PC, and you tell her that you learned blood magic from the Grey Wardens, she'll retort, "Grey Wardens do not teach such things." But how would she know this? Especially since, as you learn in Soldier's Peak, that Grey Wardens have used blood magic.

This thread made me realise just how similar Wynne and Morrigan are. Both are very preachy and self-righteous (albeit in very different ways), and both have grown up in very sheltered, isolated environments, and yet both think that they're experts on the way the rest of the world works. I can tolerate a character people perceive as being "whiny" (Like Carth, Aerie, or Alistair) when they're complaining about some terrible incident in their past. I CANNOT tolerate characters who whine that I'm not righting every single wrong I come across or not kicking every puppy and burning down every orphanage, and both Wynne and Morrigan come across this way.

But back on topic, has anyone confirmed that you can kick Wynne out of the party during the Circle quest? Like others said I'm really getting sick of seeing her nightmare in the fade.

#43
mousestalker

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You can not kick her out in an unmodded game. You can kill her, but if you let her live she must join your party in order for you to continue.

#44
LobselVith8

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HolyAvenger wrote...
Yes, imagine a sixty-year old with all sorts of life experience trying to give some advice to a young twenty-something facing difficult challenges. Unbelievable, the nerve of her ...

You mean a Senior Enchanter giving advance about being a Grey Warden when she knows next to nothing about them? Who will murder me because I allow Morrigan to have an opinion? Did Wynne become a Grey Warden when I wasn't looking?

HolyAvenger wrote...

Yeah as a Senior Enchanter and potential First Enchanter of the Circle she has no experience of politics and leadership. None at all. Nada.


Considering that the only person we know she taught ended up getting hunted down and nearly murdered by the templars...

HolyAvenger wrote...

You might not like her. Fine. You might not like her advice. Fine. But you can't seriously expect me to believe that she shouldn't be offering it.


Yeah, she shouldn't be offering advice about being a Grey Warden to an actual Grey Warden, especially when she knows nothing about being a Grey Warden in the first place.

HolyAvenger wrote...

Lets just say I don't think you get offered the job without being at the very least competent at politicking. With the various factions and so forth, getting and keeping enough support for the role appears to be no easy task.


She acts like a Loyalist (or Chantry apologist), so I can see why the Chantry would want her to be the First Enchanter.

HolyAvenger wrote...

I don't get this training business. I haven't played the DN origin yet, but I have played the HN and nothing in that indicates the HN is all that awesome at politics (at rightly so, should the player choose to roleplay in another direction). Leadership is not at all like medical training (strawman analogy), in that there far more importance attached to weight of experience rather than theoretical training. Yes Wynne is wrong in certain circumstances, she's only human. But to sideline her as naive or lacking in insight into human nature (the essence of leadership/politics, imo) is to be willfully blind about her as a character.


Strawman analogy? It's basically that someone shouldn't give advice about something they know nothing about - which is what Wynne consistently does. She'll murder the Warden because Morrigan dared to have an opinion, she'll murder the Warden over the Ashes and disregard that the Warden is trying to stop the apocalypse, she'll ask her former apprentice to return to the same prison that nearly got him murdered when he was fourteen, and none of her insight is particularly insightful.

#45
HolyAvenger

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Alright, I like a good debate so why not...

Leadership is NOT a trained ability? Knowing how to run a nation isn't something you learn? Are you serious? While some people have a natural talent for it, they still need to learn HOW. It's not something that is easy, nor is it something that we're born knowing.


No, what I said was that training isn't as important as experience. People straight out of theoretical training are generally not thrust into leadership roles but work their way up a ladder. This training that a HN or DN warden would have is largely meaningless in the face of a lack of a lack of actual on the ground experience of leadership. Not to mention we're ignoring all the other origins in the game of course

And I would just assume that the child of the second most powerful man in the nation would be raised in such a way that they know how to run things as well. After all, when your father and older brother leave, you're left to, ummm, run the teyrnir. It's not quite the same as, say, your parents leaving their kid alone for the weekend. You are left to run a major territory with a skeletal army. I cannot imagine you HAVEN'T been trained.


You're being left at home to run a basically empty castle. My impression from the HN origin (its been a while since I played it) was this was your first time in a leadership position and you were sort of being eased into it. In fact one of the dialogue options with Mama Cousland was asking her to stay and help you run things as you weren't sure you could. But all that is besides the point- in my opinion the training is nowhere near as useful as you're making it out to be, frankly. This is as someone who has been thoroughly educated in leadership and organizational management.

Edit: Since you didn't like the medical training, how about telling a new lawyer how to practice law? That may be more apt anyway, though I would think that governance is a bit more complicated.


I think we're approaching the concept of leadership and politics in different ways. I think leadership and political skills are required in any senior position in any field whereas you seem to be arguing they are similar to a profession. I would not take professional advice from someone senior in another field, but I would definitely be open to leadership/politicking/management advice.


Edit: And age does not equal education nor wisdom. It means life experience, but when the majority of that life has been spent in a sheltered circle, you're not even going to have much of that.


Sheltered Circle? Hmm I guess again that depends how you saw things. I saw the Circle as a combination of university, research centre, military academy and monastery (of sorts), with quite sharp, cut-and-thrust political maneouvering required at the top end. At the First Enchanter/Senior Enchanter level, from all the clues in the codex entries, I thought that implied plenty of political and leadership skills would be required.

Yet another edit: Can't you like Wynne but acknowledge her flaws? Wynne talks to hear her own voice, even when she has nothing to say :)


Yes she has her flaws of course, but the argument was started when it was said that it was stupid of Wynne to give the Warden advice.

#46
HolyAvenger

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You mean a Senior Enchanter giving advance about being a Grey Warden when she knows next to nothing about them? Who will murder me because I allow Morrigan to have an opinion? Did Wynne become a Grey Warden when I wasn't looking?


The debate wasn't about whether she should give advice about being a Grey Warden. I still don't have a problem with her presuming to give advice- does one have to be a Grey Warden to give advice about them? Or can one give advice to a Warden who doesn't know anything, has no mentors, simply by knowing a lot about them? I might not like the advice, or take the advice, but its simply in her character to give advice. OK. Yes she's a bit of a zealot. Part of her character's flaws.

Considering that the only person we know she taught ended up getting hunted down and nearly murdered by the templars...


Her first apprentice and her greatest regret, one who taught her a lot. In my interpretation the implication being she wisened up and trained a bunch of others since then, well.

Yeah, she shouldn't be offering advice about being a Grey Warden to an actual Grey Warden, especially when she knows nothing about being a Grey Warden in the first place.


Well the Grey Warden doesn't know anything about being a Grey Warden either. Wynne thinks she knows something in theory. Anyway, that's a lot more understandable argument to make, and one I have a lot fewer problems with than the actual argument I was making which was about leadership and political skills.

She acts like a Loyalist (or Chantry apologist), so I can see why the Chantry would want her to be the First Enchanter.


Didn't her fellow mages offer her the role?

Strawman analogy? It's basically that someone shouldn't give advice about something they know nothing about - which is what Wynne consistently does. She'll murder the Warden because Morrigan dared to have an opinion, she'll murder the Warden over the Ashes and disregard that the Warden is trying to stop the apocalypse, she'll ask her former apprentice to return to the same prison that nearly got him murdered when he was fourteen, and none of her insight is particularly insightful.


As I said in another post, I do think she knows something about politics or leadership skills. Her advice about being a Grey Warden is obviously more problematic- she offers one interpretation of what one should be like, which obviously wasn't a big deal to me but I can understand why it would annoy others. The rest of your post is about Wynne's character flaws, none of which I particularly disagree with (she's a Circle loyalist and a Chantry believer, that's just her- Bioware don't make characters who are flawless). As to her advice...well that's up to each player/PC to determine for themselves isn't it.

#47
LobselVith8

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HolyAvenger wrote...

The debate wasn't about whether she should give advice about being a Grey Warden. I still don't have a problem with her presuming to give advice- does one have to be a Grey Warden to give advice about them? Or can one give advice to a Warden who doesn't know anything, has no mentors, simply by knowing a lot about them? I might not like the advice, or take the advice, but its simply in her character to give advice. OK. Yes she's a bit of a zealot. Part of her character's flaws.


When she knows nothing about the Wardens but fairy tales, yes - it is a problem. The Wardens do whatever is necessary to stop the Blights - and her ignorance of this illustrates why she shouldn't be giving out advice about the Wardens when she clearly knows nothing about them. She'll murder the Warden because Morrigan is an apostate and has an opinion, or in the missing scene (that was only removed because it bugged the Landsmeet) she would reveal the Warden was a blood mage and get the templars to try to murder him despite saving the Circle from Uldred. She's an extremely flawed character who has no right to extol any advice about matters she knows nothing about.

HolyAvenger wrote...

Her first apprentice and her greatest regret, one who taught her a lot. In my interpretation the implication being she wisened up and trained a bunch of others since then, well.


Apparently not, if she's asking him to return to the Circle. Seems like she wants the templars to succeed in killing him this time if she's foolish enough to ask him to return to the Circle when Irving can do nothing if the templars decide he's a maleficar and try to murder him.

HolyAvenger wrote...

Well the Grey Warden doesn't know anything about being a Grey Warden either. Wynne thinks she knows something in theory. Anyway, that's a lot more understandable argument to make, and one I have a lot fewer problems with than the actual argument I was making which was about leadership and political skills.


The Warden knows a great deal more about being a Grey Warden than she does by virtue of actually being a Grey Warden. Wynne has absolutely no leadership or political skills that I can see from her overdrawn and inane sermons.

HolyAvenger wrote...

Didn't her fellow mages offer her the role?


It's never explicitly said who offered her the role, but her pro-Chantry views seemed to indicate why she'd be favored among the templars.

HolyAvenger wrote...

As I said in another post, I do think she knows something about politics or leadership skills. Her advice about being a Grey Warden is obviously more problematic- she offers one interpretation of what one should be like, which obviously wasn't a big deal to me but I can understand why it would annoy others. The rest of your post is about Wynne's character flaws, none of which I particularly disagree with (she's a Circle loyalist and a Chantry believer, that's just her- Bioware don't make characters who are flawless). As to her advice...well that's up to each player/PC to determine for themselves isn't it.


She offers the fairy tale interpretation of the Wardens, not the truth. If she didn't help Shale go to Tevinter to reclaim her mortality, I wouldn't even bother having her with my group.

#48
Eber

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LobselVith8 wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Didn't her fellow mages offer her the role?


It's never explicitly said who offered her the role, but her pro-Chantry views seemed to indicate why she'd be favored among the templars.


I think the Chantry picks the first enchanters and in the case with a new Circle (Irving dead) they most certainly do.

Greagoir: We [the Chantry] will form the Circle anew, upon the remains of the old. And we will not make the same mistakes twice. Wynne I am sure you were instrumental in bringing peace to the tower, and you have always been a respected member of the Circle. The Circle will be in need of a first enchanter. There is none other more suited to this position than you. It is yours, if you will accept it.

Wynne: Ah, Greagoir, you only picked me because all the rest of the senior mages are either dead or otherwise incapacitated. I cannot accept this offer. I wish to teach and to learn, and I will not spend the rest of my life tiptoeing around the Chantry. I would, in fact, prefer to remain in the company of the Grey Warden

You can't say you weren't warned. She wants to teach and that's why she's coming along. It is interesting that not even the Chantry apologists can stand the Chantry. That's how bad they are!

Modifié par Eber, 28 janvier 2011 - 01:22 .


#49
sevalaricgirl

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I always end up putting her in my party but this time I'm leaving her at the circle. I am playing the Dalish mage mod and don't need her.

#50
HolyAvenger

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She also gets offered it by Irving, at the end of the game, I thought. Can't remember now.

When she knows nothing about the Wardens but fairy tales, yes - it is a problem. The Wardens do whatever is necessary to stop the Blights - and her ignorance of this illustrates why she shouldn't be giving out advice about the Wardens when she clearly knows nothing about them.

She offers a vision of what Wardens should be like. Just like Morrigan does the opposite. I don't understand why that should stop you from ignoring her, or why she should shut up about it. Whatever it takes...doesn't stop the Warden from being a good man and helping people. Sheesh.

She's an extremely flawed character who has no right to extol any advice about matters she knows nothing about.


I agree with the first part of that sentence (which could be applied to all the companions), and disagree with the second.

Apparently not, if she's asking him to return to the Circle. Seems like she wants the templars to succeed in killing him this time if she's foolish enough to ask him to return to the Circle when Irving can do nothing if the templars decide he's a maleficar and try to murder him.


The flip side of this argument is that if he gets turned into an abomination out in the wild, there's no one to stop him slaughtering people. That said, I don't agree with her, and anyway she lets him stay out in the wild.

The Warden knows a great deal more about being a Grey Warden than she does by virtue of actually being a Grey Warden.


Not in my view. After Ostagar, all my PCs are lost and freaking confused, and Alistair is hopeless as a guide/more senior Warden. All the PC is knows is that they drank some darkspawn blood and can sense darkspawn and that Loghain is abandoned everyone else on the battlefield. No training whatsoever.

Wynne has absolutely no leadership or political skills that I can see from her overdrawn and inane sermons.

Fine, that's your opinion and you are welcome to it. I see her worldview as just another perspective that can be drawn upon when making decisions throughout the game.

Alright I just seem to going around in circles now, so I'm gonna stop here.