824 réponses à ce sujet

[Shepard Lives]

tmp7704 wrote...

Shepard Lives wrote...

Gotta love jumping to idiotic conclusions. No offense, but this is an immense leap of logic you took.

It's usually called "reductio ad absurdum". To put it in more plain terms, it's funny how the dwarves don't have to undergo species-wide transformation in DA2 for the sake of that alleged extra interactivity, yet still get books thrown in their face, toss things and do all sorts of tricks.

No offense but if you believe the height of characters tremendously affects the amount of conversations and such the characters can partake, that's rather gullible.

But the human-elf height gap is quite a bit less severe than the dwarf-human gap.

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

But with a human noble, she already has power by virtue of her race and class.  It's a hell of a lot more pronounced than with my Tabris and my elven blood mage, both who had much similar life paths and status than he did.

I'm not saying it's wrong or that other people shouldn't like it.  I have my preferences just as anyone else does.  The height difference was just something I noticed that felt weird about HNF-Zevran.  No need to philosophize it, I just like the idea that it won't be the same in the new game.  So sue me.

...The HN has lost her lands, and her title by that point. She has no more power than the average person at this point. There really isn't any power difference other than the captor/captee relationship (or latter at the end of the game but by that point Zevran's no longer a captee). Unless your female noble has some way of holding her meaningless title (that she really doesn't even have anymore) over Zev's head the blood mage has a lot more hold over him (especially considering the blood mage can use blood magic to manipulate someone) than the HN does. If you mean by virtue of being human then everyone has that over Zevran with the exception of Oghren and Sten.

Plus the whole HN power differece is migitated by a female blood mage. So there is no big difference then.

Those power differences are no more than what you make of them.
No need to get all snappy. Sheesh. It's just personal preferences.   I realize that.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 janvier 2011 - 05:04 .

[Ryzaki]

Count Viceroy wrote...

'Dwarf' its in the name though. It's implied that they are short(er).

stone folk, man, sterotypes I tell you!. I swear If I made fiction, *my* dwarves would be tall, thin, despise alchohol and work with wood only.

Ah true.

Heh. But Orzammar! They praise stone! What's wrong with calling them stone folk? 

[duckphone07]

tmp7704 wrote...

Shepard Lives wrote...

Gotta love jumping to idiotic conclusions. No offense, but this is an immense leap of logic you took.

It's usually called "reductio ad absurdum". To put it in more plain terms, it's funny how the dwarves don't have to undergo species-wide transformation in DA2 for the sake of that alleged extra interactivity, yet still get books thrown in their face, toss things and do all sorts of tricks.

No offense but if you believe the height of characters tremendously affects the amount of conversations and such the characters can partake, that's rather gullible.

I guess you could be right and height difference really doesn't have anything to do with interaction and what not.  But I would imagine the reason is sound. 

Think of it this way.  If there is an interaction that requires Hawke to shake a companion's hand, and whose hand he shook depended on who he took with him on a quest, would it be easier to create three differect hand shaking animations for human, elf, and dwarf, or two animations for human/elf, and dwarf?  If they needed to conserve data and it came down to taking out many interaction scenes due to too many variables, or making elves taller, then they should make elves taller. 

[Wynne]

David Gaider wrote...

If you're looking for reasons, one big one is the animation part, as you mention. Any animations involving characters interacting becomes more complicated when models are of different heights. We'd like to have more interaction. Therefore reducing the number of variables makes perfect sense.
*snip*
And I'll leave it at that. This is what I get for off-handedly mentioning things. Chris is gonna come glare at me, I just know it.

Thank you for replying. As I was saying, I do grudgingly understand, but still cannot entirely help my nerdrage, just because I thought the whole human girl/Zevran height difference was adorable and I will miss that difference. Without it, it doesn't at the current moment look like Hawke will have any LIs who are shorter than her, and that makes me sad--the fact that it's elves doesn't really bug me. If Varric turned out to be available to Hawke as well as Fenris, on the other hand, that would neutralize my nerdrage because then you'd have one who's as tall or taller than Hawke and one who's shorter.

I don't get the Hot Rod Samurai relation either. That's for Brockololly to answer; I was just consoling the people who were horrified to find themselves agreeing with him.

Don't let that offhand comment get you down. This would've had to happen sometime. We wouldn't be here if we didn't like discussing every minute detail down to nothing.

Addai67 wrote...

Wow, serious rage here?  I'm happy about
the change, it always felt awkward with HNF and Zevran.  The fact that
she was taller underscored what I felt was a power imbalance, that
almost made it feel like sexual harrassment (I know that's funny with
Zevran, but literally his life is in the Warden's hands, it just added a
bit of awkwardness).  Does this make me a bad person?  I didn't reject
the Zevran romance because of it, I just paired him with some
elves.

I understand what you're saying, but let me ask you this--would you still feel the same if we were talking about the HNM and a female version of Zevran?

As a short person, I don't feel that someone being taller than me makes them more powerful. It just means I'm closer to their kneecaps. If they don't want their kneecaps bitten, they'd better behave!

Okay, so that's facetious, but I think this perception of height as being related to power is something we as a society have to become conscious of and discredit. 

Modifié par Wynne, 20 janvier 2011 - 05:05 .

[Tragick Flaw]

Well when people tell me my short height doesn't matter, I'll just mention this thread. Yeesh, you people and your concerns over height.

[Count Viceroy]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah true.

Heh. But Orzammar! They praise stone! What's wrong with calling them stone folk? 

Nothing, nothing, I still think calling them hairy does them equal amounts of justice though.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 20 janvier 2011 - 05:04 .

[Ryzaki]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah true.

Heh. But Orzammar! They praise stone! What's wrong with calling them stone folk? 

Nothing, nothing, I still think calling them hairy does them equal amounts of justice though.

But the woman aren't hairy...

Or maybe they just thave a lot of bush...

Sorry I know I"m terrible. XD 

[kuurankuiskaus]

David Gaider wrote...

Looking in-game, it seems like Fenris is a tad shorter than my Male Hawke. It's not a marked difference, though. Same appears to be true for female elves.

Yush! I will be doing my happy dance over here now

[Ryzaki]

Though if Fenris is romanceable by males I shall be pleased. Though this has nothing to do with this thread...so...uh...um...



Is the height change made by making humans *shorter* or elves taller? Because to be honest most humans in DA were on the tall side.

[Addai]

Wynne wrote...
 I understand what you're saying, but let me ask you this--would you still feel the same if we were talking about the HNM and a female version of Zevran?

I did feel the same awkwardness with my HNM and Iona.  That felt very icky.

[Count Viceroy]

Ryzaki wrote...


But the woman aren't hairy...

Or maybe they just thave a lot of bush...

Sorry I know I"m terrible. XD 

No comment.

[TripLight]

I really don't see the problem with the height difference, and if altering it makes the animations better and smooth then go for it. It won't ruin my game experience.

[tmp7704]

duckphone07 wrote...

I guess you could be right and height difference really doesn't have anything to do with interaction and what not.  But I would imagine the reason is sound. 

Think of it this way.  If there is an interaction that requires Hawke to shake a companion's hand, and whose hand he shook depended on who he took with him on a quest, would it be easier to create three differect hand shaking animations for human, elf, and dwarf, or two animations for human/elf, and dwarf?  If they needed to conserve data and it came down to taking out many interaction scenes due to too many variables, or making elves taller, then they should make elves taller. 

This reasoning breaks as soon as you realize the elves in DA2 still get different body structure than humans, except it affects "width" rather than height. The handshake animation between characters made for two humans still won't line up properly for human-elf becase elf's hand will be placed in different spot side-wise. As such, you still need to make separate version of that cutscene to account for that, with either the elf placed differently so the hands line up, or with separate animation which takes care of that. Just like you'd need to make different version to account for height.

[Ryzaki]

Count Viceroy wrote...

No comment.

Ah my risque talk causes your ears to blush? 

On topic though: I'm irritated because hell I *liked* being taller than elves. It made my female feel tall without needing to be bigger than her male counterparts.

Now the only person she's taler than are going to be merill and Varric. *pouts* 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 janvier 2011 - 05:13 .

[Count Viceroy]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah my risque talk causes your ears to blush? 

Always

haha, I guess that smiley does look like that.

At least I'm using them

[HTTP 404]

maybe there'll be more height differences between individuals...tall humans short humans.



probably not.

[blothulfur]

Humans and elves you're all too small and squishy, if you followed the Qun you wouldn't be so stunted.

[AlexXIV]

Tragick Flaw wrote...

Well when people tell me my short height doesn't matter, I'll just mention this thread. Yeesh, you people and your concerns over height.

But you are human and not an elf. And even the fact that you are probably small in real life just disqualifies some people's argument that being small is an elven trait. It's not, period.

[David Gaider]

tmp7704 wrote...
It's usually called "reductio ad absurdum". To put it in more plain terms, it's funny how the dwarves don't have to undergo species-wide transformation in DA2 for the sake of that alleged extra interactivity, yet still get books thrown in their face, toss things and do all sorts of tricks.

No offense but if you believe the height of characters tremendously affects the amount of conversations and such the characters can partake, that's rather gullible.

For starters, I never said that making elves the same height (or roughly-- they are still shorter) as humans makes interaction possible. It makes it easier, on a systemic scale when you're taking into account things like camera angle (where the head needs to be centered) and animations (when "matching up" where interacting models touch). You reduce the number of variables involved and therefore questions of interacting stop having "but what if it's an elf? what if it's a dwarf?" automatically tacked on.

If you know that a dwarf is involved, such as Varric and the book in his face, it's not an issue. You're dealing with set models and you know how they'll interact, period. I'm talking about systems.

And, incidentally, once again that is only part of the reasoning. We wanted to change the way elves look (and have), yet didn't want them being slender to also make them look child-like. You can make assumptions if you like, but it's not very complicated-- and considering that I never thought of elves as in "they must all be shorter than humans" (as they were in D&D)  I don't really think it's a big deal. As always, YMMV.

[duckphone07]

tmp7704 wrote...

duckphone07 wrote...

I guess you could be right and height difference really doesn't have anything to do with interaction and what not.  But I would imagine the reason is sound. 

Think of it this way.  If there is an interaction that requires Hawke to shake a companion's hand, and whose hand he shook depended on who he took with him on a quest, would it be easier to create three differect hand shaking animations for human, elf, and dwarf, or two animations for human/elf, and dwarf?  If they needed to conserve data and it came down to taking out many interaction scenes due to too many variables, or making elves taller, then they should make elves taller. 

This reasoning breaks as soon as you realize the elves in DA2 still get different body structure than humans, except it affects "width" rather than height. The handshake animation between characters made for two humans still won't line up properly for human-elf becase elf's hand will be placed in different spot side-wise. As such, you still need to make separate version of that cutscene to account for that, with either the elf placed differently so the hands line up, or with separate animation which takes care of that. Just like you'd need to make different version to account for height.

Fair point, but I don't think elven width is that different from a human.  At least I don't think it is different enough to warrant completely different animation.  Plus, if it was, they could solve that by making the camera "film" the handshake at a profile angle, so width wouldn't play a difference. 

But alas, who are we to know for certain.  Our points are based off of what little we know now.

[Ryzaki]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah my risque talk causes your ears to blush? 

Always

haha, I guess that smiley does look like that.

At least I'm using them

Ah true. Much better than you being ironic and me thinking you were perfectly serious.

[duckphone07]

David Gaider wrote...

And, incidentally, once again that is only part of the reasoning. We wanted to change the way elves look (and have), yet didn't want them being slender to also make them look child-like. You can make assumptions if you like, but it's not very complicated-- and considering that I never thought of elves as in "they must all be shorter than humans" (as they were in D&D)  I don't really think it's a big deal. As always, YMMV.

This makes sense.  Some reaction of Merrils first appearence in the Dev Diary was how she looked too child-like.  This was most likely due to her looking short and slim in that shot.  They wanted to keep the slimness, so they decided to axe the shortness, that makes sense.  Not that there is anything wrong with a short and slimmed adult. 

Modifié par duckphone07, 20 janvier 2011 - 05:30 .

[Addai]

David Gaider wrote...
And, incidentally, once again that is only part of the reasoning. We wanted to change the way elves look (and have), yet didn't want them being slender to also make them look child-like. You can make assumptions if you like, but it's not very complicated-- and considering that I never thought of elves as in "they must all be shorter than humans" (as they were in D&D)  I don't really think it's a big deal. As always, YMMV.

I'm relieved about this.  Merrill had me worried.  *whew*

That Fenris is looking better and better. 

[Lirea Dragonage]

Thank the maker is what I say. As a female human warrior I looked like a giant in massive metal plate armour talking to Zevran in his nice little leather skirt. Having him stare UP at me and feeling that my warden was the more masculine of the two was a little disconcerting. Even if I'd contemplated romancing him the height would have put me off (but perhaps that's me being picky). Apparently there's a lot of people who thought he was cute that way so maybe it is just me.

Height has never been a defining feature of elves in any fantasy lore anyway. If they had decided to take away the pointy ears I think then we'd have cause for grief lol