824 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Addai67 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Because David said as much. I started this thread looking for a confirmation, hence the question mark.

I was perfectly willing for a dev to swoop in and say "Nope, that's not the case." I'd still be happy if Mike popped in and went "Female humans are taller than elven males. Stop jumping to conclusions, Maria!"

Why is that important?? 

It's important because if a developer says that the heights are what they were before then I have no problem. Why would I continue to complain about something after the developers have told me it's not actually an issue? I don't think they're liars.

If all elves have been made taller, then it stands to reason that elf males would end up a little taller than the HF.

Elves are constructed beings. They range from a foot taller than human to knee-height. There is no inherently right or wrong height for them. Yet, they've picked a height that just happens to be shorter than human males while just happening to be taller than human females. Even though we get no chance to play a male elf, we're going to spare them the horror of being shorter than a woman.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 20 janvier 2011 - 11:37 .

[Victia]

I feel sorry for DG at this point! He makes one simple comment about elves height, even saying that he is not 100% sure about it and suddenly there is a thread where people think its ok to abuse the game based on it!

[GodWood]

Victia wrote...
I for one really like what I have seen of the changes to design so far including the elves.
I personally think that they look more like a seperate species now, with the ears being bigger and stick out more,

Their ears look no different to origins elf NPC's ears.

they are taller, more slender and paler than humans and I think they look really cool!

They are not 'taller' than humans as we already know male hawke is still bigger than all elves.
They are slender, yes.
And I don't know what makes you think they're paler, Fenris has a tan.

What I'm curious to know is why you think they look more like a seperate species now than what they did before?
We've only seen one proper picture of an elf; Fenris (and he looks pretty much like an Origins elf to me, cept taller) and one blurry torso shot from a bad angle of a female elf.
I'm thinking it's a little premature to be praising their uniqueness just yet.

[wulfsturm]

pizoxuat wrote...

Any species?  Any species.  Oh lawd.  That's some bad biology, honey.

Any mamalian species, honey.

[In Exile]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Elven dudes are taller than human women because 'it just looked right.' Having them be shorter 'just seemed off' somehow. If they were suddenly taller than human males then it would be a retcon, but as they're only taller than human females they've just 'grown a little.'

Nevermind that they specifically said they were interested in exploring different types of beauty. Dudes are taller than gals because it just looks better that way.

It has the added bonus of telling all short men they should stop being deviants and start dating women shorter than them.

[Sable Rhapsody]

pizoxuat wrote...

wulfsturm wrote...
That's an odd statement. Females of any species being smaller then their male counterparts is hardly "unconventional." It's called nature, genitics, chemistry... what have you. Obviously this game is not real life, but it's based on real life - and not the fantasy of many posters in here want it to be.

Any species?  Any species.  Oh lawd.  That's some bad biology, honey.

Rather than say "any species," let's say "almost all primate and extinct humanoid species."  That's more accurate 

[mellifera]

wulfsturm wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Lol, I pretty much agree with you, Ryzaki.

Apparently it's okay when you're the short one or the "unconventional" one and others accept it. Other way around? Eww barf.

That's an odd statement. Females of any species being smaller then their male counterparts is hardly "unconventional." It's called nature, genitics, chemistry... what have you. Obviously this game is not real life, but it's based on real life - and not the fantasy of many posters in here want it to be.

I wasn't referring to that. I am not saying I want the male humans to be shorter than my female Hawke. I am not arguing that this is not the case amongst individuals of the same species in the game or many IRL.

I am arguing about the male elves, a different species being the same height as HUMAN females. Unconventional meaning that in the game it was okay when you, the player, were the elf or the dwarf. The LI still liked the Warden for who they were and Leliana and Morrigan weren't all "Ew, I won't even think about guys shorter than me." But since we can only now be human, apparently female human/shorter male is groce or something.

Not saying that anyone in BioWare actually believes this (well, some posts about dwarves by Gaider a while back did imply this but whatever) but that it's definitely the impression a change like this puts forth.

Now, of course if by some miracle Varric happens to be an LI I will buy a hat and eat it.

Modifié par yukidama, 20 janvier 2011 - 11:48 .

[Ryzaki]

Edit: Bah. Stupid computer!

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 janvier 2011 - 11:41 .

[pizoxuat]

wulfsturm wrote...

pizoxuat wrote...

Any species?  Any species.  Oh lawd.  That's some bad biology, honey.

Any mamalian species, honey.

So when did we reclassify hyenas?

[AlexXIV]

Well if I assume human male height is about 6 ft. then I actually understand the problem some people have with human female not being able to be 6 ft. tall. About the same problem I have with elves not being able to be as tall as humans. It is rubbish, makes no sense, etc. It ties a race unnecessarily to height, or does anyone say they didn't notice that elves were smaller than humans in DA:O?

Bunch of bad decisions here imo. Whether important or not, unnecessary for sure. Put some ressources on female Qunari instead Bioware damnit.

[Addai]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Elves are constructed beings. They range from a foot taller than human to knee-height. There is no inherently right or wrong height for them. Yet, they've picked a height that just happens to be shorter than human males while just happening to be taller than human females. Even though we get no chance to play a male elf, we're going to spare them the horror of being shorter than a woman.

But you didn't have a problem with women (both elf and human) being shorter than their respective male counterparts in Origins?  So now presumably the elf slider has moved up for both the male and female, and it happens that that puts Fenris at roughly the same height to or a smidge taller than the HF, and suddenly that's sexism at work?  Color me confused.

And egad, I had to eyeroll at your last statement.

[wulfsturm]

pizoxuat wrote...

So when did we reclassify hyenas?

Stop playing at semantics, you know what I mean.

[pizoxuat]

wulfsturm wrote...

pizoxuat wrote...

So when did we reclassify hyenas?

Stop playing at semantics, you know what I mean.

I am pretty sure you mean "Oh sorry, I wasn't thinking when I made an easily disproven statement," in which case, apology accepted.

[wulfsturm]

pizoxuat wrote...


I am pretty sure you mean "Oh sorry, I wasn't thinking when I made an easily disproven statement," in which case, apology accepted.

I am pretty sure I mean "Oh sorry, I wasn't thinking when I was replying to a brick wall." In which case, apology not given.

[Maugrim]

Bioware I'll make a deal with you. I'll shutup about this if you put a 6'5 female expy of Lauren Jackson in the next game as a LI for both sexes.







Deal?

[Sable Rhapsody]

Christ on a motherf***ing ******.

Did I miss the memo where BioWare is somehow responsible for the moral zeitgeist or something? Is there a reason why we accuse our favorite dev of racism, sexism, and trying to ruin our lives just because they change minor visual things about an IP that belongs to them? Are we going to hold them personally responsible for the ghastly crime of even having gender and sexual norms in their games?

Because of COURSE having elves just slightly shorter than humans, and therefore male elves taller than female humans, tells shorter guys they have no worth in life. And CLEARLY Morrigan and Leliana spent any romance with a dwarven dude mocking his height. And of COURSE only being about to play as human is inherently racist. How DARE we insinuate that these are artistic changes on the part of developers trying to make their game better? And how DARE they employ commonly used fantasy tropes in their...fantasy game?

Seriously. What. The. Hell. 

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 20 janvier 2011 - 11:51 .

[tmp7704]

wulfsturm wrote...

Stop playing at semantics, you know what I mean.

Leaving aside your initial comment wasn't exactly accurate, there isn't really that much merit in making utterly fictional species conform to mundane stereotype. One could even argue that making them different in this regard could work as additional cue they are actually something different altogether.

Modifié par tmp7704, 20 janvier 2011 - 11:53 .

[wulfsturm]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Christ on a motherf***ing ******.

Did I miss the memo where BioWare is somehow responsible for the moral zeitgeist or something? Is there a reason why we accuse our favorite dev of racism, sexism, and trying to ruin our lives just because they change minor visual things about an IP that belongs to them? Are we going to hold them personally responsible for the ghastly crime of even having gender and sexual norms in their games?

Because of COURSE having elves just slightly shorter than humans, and therefore male elves taller than female humans, tells shorter guys they have no worth in life. And CLEARLY Morrigan and Leliana spent any romance with a dwarven dude mocking his height. And of COURSE only being about to play as human is inherently racist. How DARE we insinuate that these are artistic changes on the part of developers trying to make their game better? And how DARE they employ commonly used fantasy tropes in their...fantasy game?

Seriously. What. The. Hell. 

Welcome to the internet, were everyone is a male and 10 year old girls are FBI agents.

Leaving aside your initial comment wasn't exactly accurate, there
isn't really that much merit in making utterly fictional species conform
to mundane stereotype. One could even argue that making them different
could work as additional cue they are actually something different
altogether.

What about the merit of making things more recognizable to its target audience? What about the merit of decreased development time and expendature? There's a side to every coin.

Modifié par wulfsturm, 20 janvier 2011 - 11:56 .

[Ryzaki]

...??? Where on earth is anyone saying anything about racism and ruining people's lives? Pulling things out of thin air much?

[Victia]

GodWood wrote...

Victia wrote...
I for one really like what I have seen of the changes to design so far including the elves.
I personally think that they look more like a seperate species now, with the ears being bigger and stick out more,

Their ears look no different to origins elf NPC's ears.

they are taller, more slender and paler than humans and I think they look really cool!

They are not 'taller' than humans as we already know male hawke is still bigger than all elves.
They are slender, yes.
And I don't know what makes you think they're paler, Fenris has a tan.

What I'm curious to know is why you think they look more like a seperate species now than what they did before?
We've only seen one proper picture of an elf; Fenris (and he looks pretty much like an Origins elf to me, cept taller) and one blurry torso shot from a bad angle of a female elf.
I'm thinking it's a little premature to be praising their uniqueness just yet.

I didnt say they where taller than humans - I said thay where paler than humans, I do appolagise if my writing was not clear. I cant be bothered to answer all the points you make because I am lazy lol! 

But I do like you last sentance, yes it may be premature to praise them but its also premature to be so critical of them, and to be honest I get fed up with all the threads on here that seem to obses about minor details about a game that has not been released and get treated as if they are game breaking. Some people (not saying you, just some people that I have noticed) seem to get boarder line abusive with it and while it probably doesnt bother biowares employees it does just seem unfair on them and all the hard work they put in! But thats me for my moan and vent, i shall now retreat from this thread

[Maria Caliban]

In Exile wrote...

It has the added bonus of telling all short men they should stop being deviants and start dating women shorter than them.

Didn't you know?

Short dude = freak
Tall woman = freak
Someone who wants to play a tallish woman = freak

[mellifera]

*points to her post above*

I. AM. NOT. CALLING. BIOWARE. SEXIST. OR. RACIST. JUST SAYING THAT THE DESIGN CHOICE DOES SEND AN UNINTENDED MESSAGE TO SOME PEOPLE BECAUSE NOTHING EXISTS IN A VOID. AND THAT I, YUKIDAMA, DO NOT LIKE IT. FRAK.

Modifié par yukidama, 20 janvier 2011 - 11:54 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Christ on a motherf***ing ******.

Did I miss the memo where BioWare is somehow responsible for the moral zeitgeist or something? Is there a reason why we accuse our favorite dev of racism, sexism, and trying to ruin our lives just because they change minor visual things about an IP that belongs to them? Are we going to hold them personally responsible for the ghastly crime of even having gender and sexual norms in their games?

Because of COURSE having elves just slightly shorter than humans, and therefore male elves taller than female humans, tells shorter guys they have no worth in life. And CLEARLY Morrigan and Leliana spent any romance with a dwarven dude mocking his height. And of COURSE only being about to play as human is inherently racist. How DARE we insinuate that these are artistic changes on the part of developers trying to make their game better? And how DARE they employ commonly used fantasy tropes in their...fantasy game?

Seriously. What. The. Hell. 

Woah ... This ^ All of this.. 

[The Gentle Ben]

I want to be respectful to sensibilities here, but I'm having trouble with the degree of feeling that seems to be in play. I get that this implementation is somehow being construed as a value judgment (maybe?) by Bioware as if they somehow are implying women are beneath men (maybe?), but attributing that level of malevolence or agenda to their decision-making seems a step too far for the evidence.

It may be that a non-calculated decision is still deemed insensitive, but as has already been conceded, at least among humans, men are on average taller than women. Isn't it plausible (especially in light of the new art revamp, which led to changes in all the preexisting models) that the decision broke down similarly to this:

Delineation 1. Men are taller than women.
Delineation 2. Qunari are taller than humans are taller than elves.
Delineation 3. Well what about dwarves? Dwarves are short.

That seems a fairly likely scenario and pretty innocuous.

Modifié par The Gentle Ben, 20 janvier 2011 - 11:54 .

[Ryzaki]

yukidama wrote...

*points to her post above*

I. AM. NOT. CALLING. BIOWARE. SEXIST. OR. RACIST. JUST SAYING THAT THE DESIGN CHOICE DOES SEND AN UNINTENDED MESSAGE TO SOME PEOPLE BECAUSE NOTHING EXISTS IN A VOID. FRAK.

I don't see why you're mad. It's a BS post trying to make the poster look good by making up arguements that no one was making.

That said I agree. The design choice is odd. Male elves are taller yet they convinently end up shorter than male humans but taller than females. It's a bit odd is all.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 janvier 2011 - 11:56 .