824 réponses à ce sujet

[Eclipse_9990]

yukidama wrote...

wulfsturm wrote...

Still waiting on someone to clarify about the "unintended message."

What I have been saying the entire damn thread is the unintended
message. Or was the pointing at my own previous post in reference not an
indicator of what I meant?

Meaning no, you have no clue about what you were talking about, right?

Well, if you can't look back a page and I have to repeat myself:
"I wasn't referring to that. I am not saying I want the male humans to be shorter than my female Hawke. I am not arguing that this is not the case amongst individuals of the same species in the game or many IRL.

I am arguing about the male elves, a different species being the same height as HUMAN females. Unconventional meaning that in the game it was okay when you, the player, were the elf or the dwarf. (1)The LI still liked the Warden for who they were and Leliana and Morrigan weren't all "Ew, I won't even think about guys shorter than me." (2)But since we can only now be human, apparently female human/shorter male is groce or something.

Not saying that anyone in BioWare actually believes this (well, some posts about dwarves by Gaider a while back did imply this but whatever) but that it's definitely the impression a change like this puts forth.

Now, of course if by some miracle Varric happens to be an LI I will buy a hat and eat it."

Bold 1: By that logic you shouldn't have a issue with Elves being taller right?

Bold 2: Where the hell did you get that idea?

[Ryzaki]

wulfsturm wrote...

Still waiting on someone to clarify about the "unintended message."

What I have been saying the entire damn thread is the unintended
message. Or was the pointing at my own previous post in reference not an
indicator of what I meant?

Meaning no, you have no clue about what you were talking about, right?

Huh. Guess the art of reading is lost to you huh? 

[wulfsturm]

Ryzaki wrote...

Huh. Guess the art of reading is lost to you huh? 

Reading isn't an "art" but I would argue that comprehension is.

[Xewaka]

David Gaider wrote...
And... who do we think the male and female leads are? I'm curious.

I have two theories.
First: Varric for male lead and Aveline for female, on the basis that so far they seem to be the first non-blood related party members you get.
Second: Each Hawke Sibling fulfills the "male" and "female" leads, with beth/mage hawke as "female" lead and Carver/martial hawke as "male".

[Ryzaki]

And for the last time. The issue isn't with elves being taller than humans. It's the issue with male elves being taller than female humans while remaining shorter than human males.



It just seems...odd is all. Humans and elves aren't the same height...instead male elves are conviently taller than female humans and smaller than human males.

[Ryzaki]

wulfsturm wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Huh. Guess the art of reading is lost to you huh? 

Reading isn't an "art" but I would argue that comprehension is.

One would usually comprehened tha's what I meant by that.

But if simpliciation is necessary.

[Sable Rhapsody]

leonia42 wrote...

Do not want. Why can't short guys be considered attractive? Or short women?

WHAT IS WITH THE SHORTISM AROUND HERE!

yukidama wrote...
 But since we can only now be human, apparently female human/shorter male is groce or something.

Not saying that anyone in BioWare actually believes this (well, some posts about dwarves by Gaider a while back did imply this but whatever) but that it's definitely the impression a change like this puts forth.

Now, of course if by some miracle Varric happens to be an LI I will buy a hat and eat it.

Maria Caliban wrote...

If BioWare didn't feel the need to make this change an issue of gender, I wouldn't care, but they did, so I do. 

Maria Caliban wrote...

The character artist identify more with men of a non-existent race that no one can play than female humans that can actually be PCs. 

Naturally, they've ensured that the elves aren't as tall or taller than Dude Hawke (because that would just be 'wrong') while the only qunari we see will be guys.

Maria Caliban wrote...

I take it you've confused me with someone else. I both find the change sexist AND I have personal reasons for disliking it.

Ah, yes.  Accusations of sexism or heightism on the part of BioWare on this thread.  We have dismissed these claims.

[wulfsturm]

Xewaka wrote...

I have two theories.
First: Varric for male lead and Aveline for female, on the basis that so far they seem to be the first non-blood related party members you get.

My guess is similiar to yours, Varric for male and Cassandra as the female - since they are the ones who are talking about the legend of the Champion of Kirkwall, and the player sees them interacting the entire ten years the game takes place.

My opinion though.

Modifié par wulfsturm, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:24 .

[Maugrim]

Ryzaki wrote...

And for the last time. The issue isn't with elves being taller than humans. It's the issue with male elves being taller than female humans while remaining shorter than human males.

It just seems...odd is all. Humans and elves aren't the same height...instead male elves are conviently taller than female humans and smaller than human males.

Can't speak for everyone but on my part it wouldn't be as nearly a bizarre design choice if they simply made male elves the same height as male humans and the same deal for the womenfolk.  They choose to make the difference and you can't tell me there was no reason behind it.  I don't think anyone here would accuse Bioware of intentional discrimination but even David Gaider has mentioned that people need to be conscious of unintentional discrimination when writing characters that can give off a stereotypical vibe.  In that case he was talking about homophobia of course.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:26 .

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Do not want. Why can't short guys be considered attractive? Or short women?

WHAT IS WITH THE SHORTISM AROUND HERE!

yukidama wrote...
 But since we can only now be human, apparently female human/shorter male is groce or something.

Not saying that anyone in BioWare actually believes this (well, some posts about dwarves by Gaider a while back did imply this but whatever) but that it's definitely the impression a change like this puts forth.

Now, of course if by some miracle Varric happens to be an LI I will buy a hat and eat it.

Maria Caliban wrote...

If BioWare didn't feel the need to make this change an issue of gender, I wouldn't care, but they did, so I do. 

Maria Caliban wrote...

The character artist identify more with men of a non-existent race that no one can play than female humans that can actually be PCs. 

Naturally, they've ensured that the elves aren't as tall or taller than Dude Hawke (because that would just be 'wrong') while the only qunari we see will be guys.

Maria Caliban wrote...

I take it you've confused me with someone else. I both find the change sexist AND I have personal reasons for disliking it.

Ah, yes.  Accusations of sexism or heightism on the part of BioWare on this thread.  We have dismissed these claims.

Ah yes the fact is I pointed out your BS claims of racism and ruining people's lives not sexism.

We have dismissed claims of reading comprehension apparently.

Ryzaki wrote...

...??? Where on earth is anyone saying anything about racism and ruining people's lives? Pulling things out of thin air much?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:27 .

[Ryzaki]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And for the last time. The issue isn't with elves being taller than humans. It's the issue with male elves being taller than female humans while remaining shorter than human males.

It just seems...odd is all. Humans and elves aren't the same height...instead male elves are conviently taller than female humans and smaller than human males.

Can't speak for everyone but on my part it wouldn't be as nearly a bizarre design choice if they simply made male elves the same height as male humand and the same deal for the womenfolk.

Indeed I would have no issue with that either.

[wulfsturm]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Can't speak for everyone but on my part it wouldn't be as nearly a bizarre design choice if they simply made male elves the same height as male humand and the same deal for the womenfolk.

Hmm, I wander if people took offence at males and females being of equal height in DA:O. Nah not PC enough.

[Ryzaki]

filaminstrel wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And for the last time. The issue isn't with elves being taller than humans. It's the issue with male elves being taller than female humans while remaining shorter than human males.

It just seems...odd is all. Humans and elves aren't the same height...instead male elves are conviently taller than female humans and smaller than human males.

Or just in general, with the males of both races being taller than the females of both races, right? If it was instead, male elf > male human > female elf > female human, in order of height, it would still be an issue?

So you'd rather either the male elf be shorter than the female human or the female elf be taller than the male human.

Frankly I rather elves be the same height as humans of the same gender.

But if we have to do this differential thing yes I'd prefer male elves be shorter than female humans.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah yes th fact is I pointed out your BS claims of racism and ruining people's lives not sexism.

We have dismissed claims of reading comprehension apparently.

I'm flattered that you think I was addressing you specifically.  That wasn't my intention.

Also, I have better things to do than trawl through this thread for more quotes.  Like enjoy a sandwich.  Or a nice walk on the beach.  Or an evening of board games with my boyfriend.  Who happens to be taller than me.  Oh my word.

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah yes th fact is I pointed out your BS claims of racism and ruining people's lives not sexism.

We have dismissed claims of reading comprehension apparently.

I'm flattered that you think I was addressing you specifically.  That wasn't my intention.

Also, I have better things to do than trawl through this thread for more quotes.  Like enjoy a sandwich.  Or a nice walk on the beach.  Or an evening of board games with my boyfriend.  Who happens to be taller than me.  Oh my word.

Go. Enjoy yourself. Might do you some more good instead of making up BS on a thread that you claim not to be interested in.

[mellifera]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

yukidama wrote...

wulfsturm wrote...

Still waiting on someone to clarify about the "unintended message."

What I have been saying the entire damn thread is the unintended
message. Or was the pointing at my own previous post in reference not an
indicator of what I meant?

Meaning no, you have no clue about what you were talking about, right?

Well, if you can't look back a page and I have to repeat myself:
"I wasn't referring to that. I am not saying I want the male humans to be shorter than my female Hawke. I am not arguing that this is not the case amongst individuals of the same species in the game or many IRL.

I am arguing about the male elves, a different species being the same height as HUMAN females. Unconventional meaning that in the game it was okay when you, the player, were the elf or the dwarf. (1)The LI still liked the Warden for who they were and Leliana and Morrigan weren't all "Ew, I won't even think about guys shorter than me." (2)But since we can only now be human, apparently female human/shorter male is groce or something.

Not saying that anyone in BioWare actually believes this (well, some posts about dwarves by Gaider a while back did imply this but whatever) but that it's definitely the impression a change like this puts forth.

Now, of course if by some miracle Varric happens to be an LI I will buy a hat and eat it."

Bold 1: By that logic you shouldn't have a issue with Elves being taller right?

Bold 2: Where the hell did you get that idea?

The root of my issue with the change has to do with the male elves being shorter than human males but taller than human females. So yes. If they had said Elves are taller across the board and they're the same height as humans, I'd be more "meh" about it. And my tone probably conveys more annoyance than I actually feel right now. I don't have a short fetish or anything. I'm of average height. I don't give a hoot if you like tall people or short people or skinny people or fat people or aliens or people with horns. That's an individual's prerogative.

Where the hell did I get what idea? About Gaider or about there being a message being sent to some people? As I said, I am not discussing anyone from BioWare's intent or how they feel about the topic when they made the design choice. I am not saying Mary Kirby would never go out with a man who is taller than her because she finds height differences disgusting or that David Gaider hates women or that the design team are a pack of misogynists because those are ridiculous claims. But I guess it's so normalized that it's insane to possibly even consider that this kind of action could ever be construed differently by people with different viewpoints despite the reasoning behind it.

Modifié par yukidama, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:33 .

[wulfsturm]

Ryzaki wrote...

Frankly I rather elves be the same height as humans of the same gender.

But if we have to do this differential thing yes I'd prefer male elves be shorter than female humans.

...But then that would make you a sexist against male elves.

Ah turnabout logic, how I love thee.

[Ryzaki]

wulfsturm wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Frankly I rather elves be the same height as humans of the same gender.

But if we have to do this differential thing yes I'd prefer male elves be shorter than female humans.

...But then that would make you a sexist against male elves.

Ah turnabout logic, how I love thee.

Considering that's the way it was originally I see no such sexist claims.

Turnabout logic fail. Both female and male elves were smaller then human females. Not just males while female elves are slightly taller/the same size.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:31 .

[Annarl]

Hey maybe the dwarves will get taller too! Just kidding...well I hope. I don't really care about whose taller but I do find it strange that Bioware is changing so much of the appearance of the game's species. I wonder why they were so unhappy with them.

Modifié par omearaee, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:32 .

[Ryzaki]

filaminstrel wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Frankly I rather elves be the same height as humans of the same gender.

But if we have to do this differential thing yes I'd prefer male elves be shorter than female humans.

If they were the same height for both genders wouldn't that be perpetuating the notion that tall women and short men don't go together just as much as the current system?

Why would it? Human females would still be taller than male elves and I doubt Fenris isn't a romance.

And on average yes females tend to be smaller than males. If not for the limitations of the medium I would enjoy having characters of various heights regardless of race.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:32 .

[wulfsturm]

Ryzaki wrote...

Considering that's the way it was originally I see no such sexist claims.

Of course you wouldn't, but what if the oposite was true? Would you still make that argument?

Of course not, your sexist against men.

Modifié par wulfsturm, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:33 .

[Reverie]

Oh my. This thread amazes me although I'm not sure why. Since things being blown out of proportion seems to be the way things go on the internet. I think that some people are digging a little too deep in trying to find hidden meanings behind this. Unintentional or not.

[Ryzaki]

wulfsturm wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Considering that's the way it was originally I see no such sexist claims.

Of course you wouldn't, but what if the oposite was true? Would you still make that argument?

If all elves were taller than humans? 

No I wouldn't because the male elves would be taller than male humans. So no actually I wouldn't.

The thing that bugs me is how the male elf remains small enough not to dare threaten the human male's dominance.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:34 .