824 réponses à ce sujet

[twincast]

Maria Caliban wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

Or are you saying that even if they didn't intend it to be sexist, the result perpetuates sexism nonetheless?

The vast majority of sexism is unintentional.

Elven dudes are taller than human women because 'it just looked right.' Having them be shorter 'just seemed off' somehow. If they were suddenly taller than human males then it would be a retcon, but as they're only taller than human females they've just 'grown a little.'

Nevermind that they specifically said they were interested in exploring different types of beauty. Dudes are taller than gals because it just looks better that way.

QFT

I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I don't really want to get dragged into the discussion, but I have to say at least one thing:
It's frustrating and offending enough how in DC & Marvel Comics even the already few small male teen super-heroes always grow up to be your run-of-the-mill large manly adult super-heroes; can't TPTB at least keep elves small in one IP?!

[tmp7704]

yukidama wrote...

So yes. If they had said Elves are taller across the board and they're the same height as humans, I'd be more "meh" about it.

They do seem to be taller across the board though, or at least Mr.Gaider's comment makes it sound this way -- him being under impression elves are now taller and nearly as tall as humans. So that'd mean male elves are nearly as tall as male humans, and female elves are nearly as tall as female humans.

[wulfsturm]

Ryzaki wrote...


If all elves were taller than humans? 

No I wouldn't because the male elves would be taller than male humans. So no actually I wouldn't.

Uh no, that male elves were taller then human females in the first game, and then shorter in DA2.

[Ryzaki]

wulfsturm wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


If all elves were taller than humans? 

No I wouldn't because the male elves would be taller than male humans. So no actually I wouldn't.

Uh no, that male elves were taller then human females in the first game, and then shorter in DA2.

But you said the same.

The same thing is that humans are taller across the board than elves. Not one specific gender is taller than the humans.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:37 .

[mellifera]

tmp7704 wrote...

yukidama wrote...

So yes. If they had said Elves are taller across the board and they're the same height as humans, I'd be more "meh" about it.

They do seem to be taller across the board though, or at least Mr.Gaider's comment makes it sound this way -- him being under impression elves are now taller and nearly as tall as humans. So that'd mean male elves are nearly as tall as male humans, and female elves are nearly as tall as female humans.

True, it just bugs me that the dialogue surrounding them has been:

"Merril is so cute and tiny and small!"
"Fenris is taller than female humans but not taller than male humans."

It just sounds wrong.

[wulfsturm]

Ryzaki wrote...

But you said the same.

The same thing is that humans are taller across the board than elves. Not one specific gender is taller than the humans.

Sigh.

Reading comprehension -10000

[KBomb]

omearaee wrote...

Hey maybe the dwarves will get taller too! Just kidding...well I hope. I don't really care about whose taller but I do find it strange that Bioware is changing so much of the appearance of the game's species. I wonder why they were so unhappy with them.

It could be that Bioware wasn’t exactly unhappy with them, maybe they just thought it needed a bit of tweaking for technical issues, or some other mundane reasoning. I am nearly certain that when making the adjustment they weren’t thinking about how it would bring down the fiery hell of racism and sexism and heightism that it has. Not over a few inches.
It makes sense to me. On average, men are taller than women. Elven men on average would probably be taller than their counterparts, which would probably equal the height of a female human, but not exactly the height of a male human. *shrugs*

Modifié par KBomb, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:39 .

[Ryzaki]

Hell I don't think I'd mind if it was *just* Fenris who was taller than FEmHawke (cause I could pretend FemHawke was just short).

[Ryzaki]

wulfsturm wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

But you said the same.

The same thing is that humans are taller across the board than elves. Not one specific gender is taller than the humans.

Sigh.

Reading comprehension -10000

You might want to apply that to yourself. You said the sameas in DAO.

IN DAO. HF were taller than EM because humans were taller across the board.

Learn to specify. After all that's what you told me right? 

[Ryzaki]

filaminstrel wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

If they were the same height for both genders wouldn't that be perpetuating the notion that tall women and short men don't go together just as much as the current system?

Why would it? Human females would still be taller than male elves and I doubt Fenris isn't a romance.

I mean if elf males and human males were of equal height, and elf females and human females were of equal height.

I'd be cool with it. Hell I prefer it.

[Eclipse_9990]

yukidama wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

yukidama wrote...

wulfsturm wrote...

Still waiting on someone to clarify about the "unintended message."

What I have been saying the entire damn thread is the unintended
message. Or was the pointing at my own previous post in reference not an
indicator of what I meant?

Meaning no, you have no clue about what you were talking about, right?

Well, if you can't look back a page and I have to repeat myself:
"I wasn't referring to that. I am not saying I want the male humans to be shorter than my female Hawke. I am not arguing that this is not the case amongst individuals of the same species in the game or many IRL.

I am arguing about the male elves, a different species being the same height as HUMAN females. Unconventional meaning that in the game it was okay when you, the player, were the elf or the dwarf. (1)The LI still liked the Warden for who they were and Leliana and Morrigan weren't all "Ew, I won't even think about guys shorter than me." (2)But since we can only now be human, apparently female human/shorter male is groce or something.

Not saying that anyone in BioWare actually believes this (well, some posts about dwarves by Gaider a while back did imply this but whatever) but that it's definitely the impression a change like this puts forth.

Now, of course if by some miracle Varric happens to be an LI I will buy a hat and eat it."

Bold 1: By that logic you shouldn't have a issue with Elves being taller right?

Bold 2: Where the hell did you get that idea?

The root of my issue with the change has to do with the male elves being shorter than human males but taller than human females. So yes. If they had said Elves are taller across the board and they're the same height as humans, I'd be more "meh" about it. And my tone probably conveys more annoyance than I actually feel right now. I don't have a short fetish or anything. I'm of average height. I don't give a hoot if you like tall people or short people or skinny people or fat people or aliens or people with horns. That's an individual's prerogative.

Where the hell did I get what idea? About Gaider or about there being a message being sent to some people? As I said, I am not discussing anyone from BioWare's intent or how they feel about the topic when they made the design choice. But I guess it's so normalized that it's insane to possibly even consider that this kind of action could ever be construed differently by people with different viewpoints despite the reasoning behind it.

Bold: So what? If Bioware believes that its weird to have a female look down at her man(which I HIGHLY doubt). So the f*** what? Its a game.. Do you think people are going to remember Dragon Age 2 10-20 years from now? No they won't they'll probably be complaining about some other stupid ****, from some other game in the future.. This isnt a big deal.. Besides Varric may or may not be a LI so you might get your short dude anyway.. 

[wulfsturm]

Ryzaki wrote...

You might want to apply that to yourself. You said the sameas in DAO.

IN DAO. HF were taller than EM because humans were taller across the board.

Learn to specify. After all that's what you told me right? 

No, I said the opposite OPPOSITE not the same.

And I never told you anything about specifying, please stop making things up.

[Ryzaki]

wulfsturm wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

You might want to apply that to yourself. You said the sameas in DAO.

IN DAO. HF were taller than EM because humans were taller across the board.

Learn to specify. After all that's what you told me right? 

No, I said the opposite OPPOSITE not the same.

And I never told you anything about specifying, please stop making things up.

Oh lord.

The opposite of humans being taller than elves across the board is elves being taller than humans across the board. Which I said I wouldn't have a problem with.

So what was that comprehension instead of reading comment about? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:43 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Ryzaki wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

If they were the same height for both genders wouldn't that be perpetuating the notion that tall women and short men don't go together just as much as the current system?

Why would it? Human females would still be taller than male elves and I doubt Fenris isn't a romance.

I mean if elf males and human males were of equal height, and elf females and human females were of equal height.

I'd be cool with it. Hell I prefer it.

Right. Because Bioware is clearly here to cater to your specific preferences.. 

[mellifera]

Nothing we've been discussing in the forums really matters. Every single thing is just part of a damn game. I don't see why discussing one has any less merit than discussing Isabela's thong or why some people don't wear armor or why the combat animations are flashier, etc etc.



Sorry what I personally choose to be displeased about isn't to your standards, master.



I'm done.

[tmp7704]

yukidama wrote...

True, it just bugs me that the dialogue surrounding them has been:

"Merril is so cute and tiny and small!"
"Fenris is taller than female humans but not taller than male humans."

It just sounds wrong.

Yeah, i'd just prefer them remain the way they were. The initial rendition really clicked with me, dunno why... the thinner thing i'm ambivalent about, but this height news is pretty meh :/

Modifié par tmp7704, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:44 .

[Pzykozis]

Reverie wrote...

Oh my. This thread amazes me although I'm not sure why. Since things being blown out of proportion seems to be the way things go on the internet. I think that some people are digging a little too deep in trying to find hidden meanings behind this. Unintentional or not.

This a million times...

Oh god the poor logic.. it seems to flow... then randomly hits the spaghetti junction proceeds to catch fire is eaten, regurgitated, consumed a second time and then 'passed' into the open mouth of a leperous unicorn.

Incredulous that's what this thread makes me, absolutely incredulous.

it does however feed my life with laughter.

Trying to help this thread.. well, essentially if you look at general with nature (in general means majority ok? Oh what about hyenas hahahahaha. Fail.) the male of the species is larger, this rule is applied to fantasy creatures? Why? Well as a guy who actually makes 3d art soon to be looking for jobs in the industry *wink wink Bioware* you have to follow the rules of real life simply for immersion, an alien gun still has to look like a human gun in an abstract way, those trees and plants I'm thinking of putting in to my scene have to look like they come from south-east asia because that's where the scene is based etc.

Anyways aside from this and on to the elves thing in general, they've raised the height to eleviate some of the childlike-ness of the new uber frail lookng elves which I am happy for because frankly if Merrill was any smaller I would think she was 12, this brings elves up to a more comparable height with humans, factor in the height disparity between genders that exists in real life, and hey presto apparently you have why this has happ- I mean you have an ingrained sexist mentality that shows itself. Oh wait.

Modifié par Pzykozis, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:45 .

[Ryzaki]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

If they were the same height for both genders wouldn't that be perpetuating the notion that tall women and short men don't go together just as much as the current system?

Why would it? Human females would still be taller than male elves and I doubt Fenris isn't a romance.

I mean if elf males and human males were of equal height, and elf females and human females were of equal height.

I'd be cool with it. Hell I prefer it.

Right. Because Bioware is clearly here to cater to your specific preferences.. 

Oh cool: I have nothing meaningful to say so I'm going to pretend you're saying something you're not!

[HolyAvenger]

Why are the female players soooooooooo keen on having Fenris taller than their PC? I just did the Zev romance with a female PC and it was fine, didn't make me giggle hysterically or anything.

[Gorthaur X]

I just love all the people saying that this isn't a big deal and people shouldn't bother discussing such a trivial issue.



Over and over again.



With increasing fury.

[twincast]

yukidama wrote...

I am arguing about the male elves, a different species being the same height as HUMAN females. Unconventional meaning that in the game it was okay when you, the player, were the elf or the dwarf. The LI still liked the Warden for who they were and Leliana and Morrigan weren't all "Ew, I won't even think about guys shorter than me." But since we can only now be human, apparently female human/shorter male is gross or something.

I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with only being able to play human PCs now per se, but 100% with elves in large part due to Tolkien having a way more flexible height in fiction than dwarves and a romance between a large female and a small male not being Hot Rod Samurai.

[wulfsturm]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh lord.

The opposite of humans being taller than elves across the board is elves being taller than humans across the board. Which I said I wouldn't have a problem with.

So what was that comprehension instead of reading comment about? 

Exactly, that was my entire point to begin with. Your double standards against male elves.

[Malanek]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Ah, yes.  Accusations of sexism or heightism on the part of BioWare on this thread.  We have dismissed these claims.

Ryzaki wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah yes th fact is I pointed out your BS claims of racism and ruining people's lives not sexism.

We have dismissed claims of reading comprehension apparently.

I'm flattered that you think I was addressing you specifically.  That wasn't my intention.

Also, I have better things to do than trawl through this thread for more quotes.  Like enjoy a sandwich.  Or a nice walk on the beach.  Or an evening of board games with my boyfriend.  Who happens to be taller than me.  Oh my word.

Go. Enjoy yourself. Might do you some more good instead of making up BS on a thread that you claim not to be interested in.

Seriously Ryzaki, who is making up the the BS here? Not once (as far as I can tell, I suppose its possible further back in the thread) did Sable Rhapsody claim there were any racism allegations. She was illustrating claims of sexism or heightism.

[Ryzaki]

Edit: I'm done. I'm sick of bull being put in my mouth. Have fun being smug jackasses.

And I quoted what I said. You might want to read before spewing BS. I specifically quoted the nonsense alligations. I.E. Racism and ruining people's lives.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 janvier 2011 - 12:46 .