824 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

wulfsturm wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Urgh.

The people making the decision aren't sexist. They're not racist. They're not heightist or speciesist or whateverist. A choice was made that makes a very poor impression to me and others. This is not representative of who they are as people and what their beliefs are or the beliefs of their company as a whole.

That is all.

I wasn't aware you could make sexist / heightist choices without being sexist or heightist, because doesn't the former make you the later?

As far as I know the ending -ist or -ism makes you a sort of extremist. That's why being patriot is good and being nationalist is bad.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 janvier 2011 - 01:22 .

[Ryzaki]

AlexXIV wrote...

Honestly guys, yuki said that their decision is giving the impression. Not that it was Bioware's intention. But I guess her post about the impression Bioware's decission made could give the impression she meant that ...

And yes -ist is extreme. There are plenty of people who say sexist/racist comments but aren't racists/sexist. Most of the time you just have to point out what they're doing and they go "Whoops. Didn't mean that." 

Unforunate implications is the saying I believe.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 janvier 2011 - 01:24 .

[KBomb]

Ryzaki wrote...

KBomb wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Of course. I wouldn't have an issue with that oddly as long as female elves and human females were the same height.

I know it would lead to the same thing but frankly it irritates me a hell of a lot less than having the male elf stay conviently smaller than the human male.

KBomb wrote...

 It makes sense to me. On average, men are taller than women. Elven men on average would probably be taller than their counterparts, which would probably equal the height of a female human, but not exactly the height of a male human. *shrugs*

But why would elven men be taller than human female? They weren't before. Why would this change come about? Why not the same height as human males? 

Like I said. It bothers me because t seems too convienent. Maybe I spent too much time listenting to people complain about elven height in the Fenris thread.

They’ve been taking their protein pills? I don’t think they really need a reason for such a small artistic change. They’ve changed the look of the elf a few different ways from Origins, this is just another one. If they did it because of the Fenris/FemHawke LI, then that is the reason. It boils down to it being their creation and if they feel they needed to change a minute detail such as adding a few inches to a male character, or an entire race, then that is their right to do so. I think reading anything into beyond that is speculation, and as for it sending unintentional messages about sexism or heightism or whatever politically incorrect subtext imbedded within a few inches--well, that boarders on ridiculous.

[wulfsturm]

NVM

Modifié par wulfsturm, 21 janvier 2011 - 01:26 .

[Gorthaur X]

tmp7704 wrote...

(courtesy of Fishmas1.  i find Aveline adorable but these expressions are too priceless not to post them)

That looks really familiar, somehow.

[tmp7704]

Pzykozis wrote...

You put horns on a human and the player looks at it and says ok so it's a humanoid species similar to a human no big deal you have some sort of lore about them 'blah blah they're horned they're not like us blah blah', on the otherhand you make a race where the females are larger than the males you have to explain why this is the case, because in a general sense it is not normal.

Hmm i think we'll just have to disagree on this one. To have humans with horns is in general sense absolutely not normal, either. It's the sort of thing that gets one a job in a freak show. So if you're willing to accept such abnormal species with simple "blah blah they have horns because they aren't like us" then i really don't see why you can't have a species with females taller than males and accept it with the same reasoning -- "blah blah the females are taller because they aren't like us".

If it's not the case, it's possible you may be individually just too stuck with the stereotype when it comes to this particular aspect, that you can't approach it with the same open-minded attitude you have when it comes to equally "not normal" modification that's adding horns or whatever other physical features, like extra arms or legs or whathaveyou?

[wulfsturm]

Ryzaki wrote...




And yes -ist is extreme. There are plenty of people who say sexist/racist comments but aren't racists/sexist. Most of the time you just have to point out what they're doing and they go "Whoops. Didn't mean that." 

Unforunate implications is the saying I believe.

And yet, that still doesn't change what I wrote.

[mellifera]

wulfsturm wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Urgh.

The people making the decision aren't sexist. They're not racist. They're not heightist or speciesist or whateverist. A choice was made that makes a very poor impression to me and others. This is not representative of who they are as people and what their beliefs are or the beliefs of their company as a whole.

That is all.

I wasn't aware you could make sexist / heightist choices without being sexist or heightist, because doesn't the former make you the later?

That's a heavily debated topic. I believe a single instance is not indicative of a person's entire world-view, especially if it's something like this where it wasn't their intent at all as much as my interpretation of that one thing that it can be seen as something unfortunate because of how people think of shorter men IRL. If I say I don't like coffee, it doesn't mean I hate all drinks and am an angry raving anti-beverage bigot. Therefore, their single art design decision that I can view as a decision that reinforces a negative isn't indicative of how they feel about anything personally.

Modifié par yukidama, 21 janvier 2011 - 01:32 .

[lv12medic]

Ugh, this thread feels like what happens when you walk along the edge of a torus.



I think I'm going to follow Gaider's explanation (atleast, my gist of it) and chalk it up to a design and functionality decision over anything else. Makes life simple.

[Ryzaki]

wulfsturm wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...




And yes -ist is extreme. There are plenty of people who say sexist/racist comments but aren't racists/sexist. Most of the time you just have to point out what they're doing and they go "Whoops. Didn't mean that." 

Unforunate implications is the saying I believe.

And yet, that still doesn't change what I wrote.

Yes because saying BW made an unfortunate implication is equal to calling them sexist.

[AlexXIV]

wulfsturm wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...




And yes -ist is extreme. There are plenty of people who say sexist/racist comments but aren't racists/sexist. Most of the time you just have to point out what they're doing and they go "Whoops. Didn't mean that." 

Unforunate implications is the saying I believe.

And yet, that still doesn't change what I wrote.

Well a patriot could share a nationalist's view on a certain topic. But only if he shared all or most nationalist views it would make him a nationalist. Or take elitists. If you belong to an elite and you share some ideas of elitism it doesn't make you an elitist unless you agree with most elitist views. Or if you are a social person, so you share some socialists views but not all. Only if you shared most or even all of them you'd be a socialist. Hence making an extreme statement doesn't automatically make you an extremist.

[Ryzaki]

What this whole thread resulted from in my view

[Eclipse_9990]

Ryzaki wrote...

What this whole thread resulted from in my view

Pretty funny, and yes I agree..

[Sabariel]

Someone needs to make a motivational: "BioWare: Everything is an Issue."

[drahelvete]

AlexXIV wrote...

wulfsturm wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Urgh.

The people making the decision aren't sexist. They're not racist. They're not heightist or speciesist or whateverist. A choice was made that makes a very poor impression to me and others. This is not representative of who they are as people and what their beliefs are or the beliefs of their company as a whole.

That is all.

I wasn't aware you could make sexist / heightist choices without being sexist or heightist, because doesn't the former make you the later?

As far as I know the ending -ist or -ism makes you a sort of extremist. That's why being patriot is good and being nationalist is bad.

Nope.


-ism: used to form nouns denoting action, condition, doctrine, or usage (criticism, barbarism, Darwinism, realism, witticism)


-ist: used to form personal nouns corresponding to verbs ending in -ize or nouns ending in -ism (apologist, humanist, machinist, socialist)

[Ryzaki]

-ist /əst, ist/ ♫
▶ suffix [forming personal nouns and some related adjectives:]
Denoting an adherent of a system of beliefs, principles, etc., expressed by nouns ending in -ism: hedonist | Buddhist. See -ism (sense 2).
• denoting a person who subscribes to a prejudice or practices discrimination: sexist.

Denoting a member of a profession or business activity: dentist | dramatist | florist.
• denoting a person who uses a thing: flutist | motorist.

• denoting a person who does something expressed by a verb ending in -ize: plagiarist.

ORIGIN: from Old French -iste, Latin -ista, from Greek -istēs.
IST
▶ abbr. insulin shock therapy.

Oxford Dictionary.

ism
▶ suffix forming nouns:
# Denoting an action or its
result: baptism | exorcism.
• denoting a state or quality: barbarism.
Denoting a system, principle, or ideological movement: Anglicanism |
feminism |
hedonism.
• denoting a basis for prejudice or discrimination: racism.
# Denoting a peculiarity in language:
colloquialism | Canadianism.
# Denoting a pathological condition:
alcoholism.ORIGIN: from French -isme, via Latin from Greek -ismos,
-isma.
ism /ˈizəm/ ♫
▶ noun informal, chiefly derogatory a distinctive practice, system, or philosophy, typically a political ideology or an artistic movement: of all the isms, fascism is the most repressive.

→ ist noun
ORIGIN: late 17th cent.: independent usage of -ism.

[*]Same dictionary.


Needless to say I doubt we think one decision means BW practicise or subscribes to being discriminatory.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 janvier 2011 - 01:53 .

[AlexXIV]

No, as I said I think it's Fenris' fault. Let's stick to tradition and blame the elves.

[Pzykozis]

tmp7704 wrote...

Hmm i think we'll just have to disagree on this one. To have humans with horns is in general sense absolutely not normal, either. It's the sort of thing that gets one a job in a freak show. So if you're willing to accept such abnormal species with simple "blah blah they have horns because they aren't like us" then i really don't see why you can't have a species with females taller than males and accept it with the same reasoning -- "blah blah the females are taller because they aren't like us".

If it's not the case, it's possible you may be individually just too stuck with the stereotype when it comes to this particular aspect, that you can't approach it with the same open-minded attitude you have when it comes to equally "not normal" modification that's adding horns or whatever other physical features, like extra arms or legs or whathaveyou?

They're not human though, and you wouldn't just have humans with horns you'd also make some other aesthetic changes to differentiate (like say purpleish skin), some that people don't just go oh horns on a human ( I did from the start say humanoid not human) the blah blah is because I'm not a writer / producer / designer It's not my place to come up with ideas for these things (well more because it's late) it's more my thing to make them look believeable within the context of the world. Height is just something that is more fundemental than horns really, it's something that people instintively know when it comes to the difference between gender, horns are more an aesthetic choice in the same way that the ears on elves are.

Height or well size in this case, muscle mass and bone structure, are fairly important to nail for a believeable creature, you can then put whatever aesthetic choices you want on that creature (within limits) and you'll get something fairly believeable. To bring it more into my world, it's why you don't put the workshop which works on boats in the middle of a village (away from the water), nor do you put an oak in the middle of Angkor Wat these things are just wrong, however I can (and this is what I'm doing right now) mix aesthetic styles of medieval europe with tibetan / Khmer etc.

Ugh too many edits to this. Maybe I'll try and make my point better tomorrow. Perhaps we will just agree to disagree though.

Modifié par Pzykozis, 21 janvier 2011 - 02:03 .

[Addai]

SirGladiator wrote...

It seems like a strange concept, elves taller than humans. Certainly this wasn't the case in DAO, and it doesn't seem like Merrill is very tall at all, so Im assuming that human females are still taller than elf females. Why they made elf males super-tall, as apparently they did from what Ive read here, is rather a mystery. I suppose its for whoever wants to romance the elf guy, but it would've probably been better to just say he was unusually tall instead of making all the elf males taller than human females, that seems rather strange and inappropriate.

They didn't.  You might not be able to figure that out by the tempest in the teapot, but all poor DG said was that Fenris was about the same height as mHawke or a little shorter.

I had a look back at the concept art and you can see the change here.

[Saibh]

Y'all don't think it's possible the elves got taller because...well, because everything else got a visual overhaul, and their height is not reliant to their species?

[AlexXIV]

I wonder how much this 'bit' actually is. Because from the concept art it hardly seems significant.

[AlexXIV]

Saibh wrote...

Y'all don't think it's possible the elves got taller because...well, because everything else got a visual overhaul, and their height is not reliant to their species?

Well even if, then I still guess that there are reasons for the changes.

[Ryzaki]

The concept air makes both species look the same height. That I wouldn't mind.

[Eveangaline]

Saibh wrote...

Y'all don't think it's possible the elves got taller because...well, because everything else got a visual overhaul, and their height is not reliant to their species?

Then why doesn't it look like the lady elfs got any taller?

[KatieLauren]

I have to agree with Maria from pages and pages ago, so what? Not that big of a deal, as long as he fits in with all the other mythology that was started up in Origins.
Besides, I'm sure this is fantastic news for all you Fenris die-hards. Now he won't feel so puny.

EDIT: Btw, the picture above aren't elves. They're qunari. You would have thought the horns and grey skin and uncharacteristically bulbous muscles might have been a tip off...but whatever.
This - http://nightmaremode...8/da2_races.jpg - actually shows the elves, plus how their compare in height with all the other folks stomping around in DA 2.

Modifié par KatieLauren, 21 janvier 2011 - 02:38 .