824 réponses à ce sujet

[errant_knight]

makenzieshepard wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Laughed my head off when I first saw that comic. I've so been there....

It's bad when you have to open up several extra windows just to be able to click on the tabs in the top bad.

Yes! And you get so many tropes deep, it takes hours to find your way back! Heh. I love TVtropes....

[darrylzero]

RedRoo wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Why?

I feel like anytime someone feels they find a situation that might somehow apply they'll link it up with authoritative conviction no matter how tenuous the relationship is. I understand tropes are a necessary tool (and often important to recognize, like Women In Refirgerators and the misogyny behind it) but the way they're often wielded in the forums is unnecessary at best.

imo

(edited for clarity and general more-goodness.)

To me, the issue is not that TV Tropes is supposed to be funny, exactly (though it certainly can be), but that it's a guide to the baggage we collectively bring to bear on a given situation.  Sometimes that's played for lolz, which makes sense, because we're pretty ridiculous, but I think the more serious and/or troubling aspects of these things are extensively documented throughout.

But it should be used only as a guide to that collective baggage.  In my opinion that can never be the end-all of a discussion but should also not be ignored.  Tropes can be your best friend and your worst enemy.  The important thing is to remember, I think, is that those positives and negatives are distributed extremely unevenly across society. To be sensitive and sensible about these things, I think, you have to be aware of this but not ruled by it.

[Sharn01]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Wow, feel the anger in this thread.

Elves should be shorter. That's one of their hats. But oh well, I don't really care.

Actually, they have always been taller, D&D and its copycats are the only place you will find short elves, at least elves that are actually based on the elves on legend, and not something rediculous like santa elves.

[wulfsturm]

Sharn01 wrote...

Actually, they have always been taller, D&D and its copycats are the only place you will find short elves, at least elves that are actually based on the elves on legend, and not something rediculous like santa elves.

Newsflash: Tolkien didn't invent elves.

[Addai]

I guess I'm the only one who doesn't find TV Tropes at all addicting. Then again, I'm apathetic about a lot of pop culture. The site does seem to present archetypes in a negative light, as if they're all cliche's by virtue of being archetypes.

Someone asked upthread why some women prefer men to be taller. It's just a thing. I don't try to explain it. All that evolutionary gobbledygook... whatever.  Maybe it's because bearhugs are among nature's finest things.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:13 .

[Sharn01]

wulfsturm wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Actually, they have always been taller, D&D and its copycats are the only place you will find short elves, at least elves that are actually based on the elves on legend, and not something rediculous like santa elves.

Newsflash: Tolkien didn't invent elves.

No kidding, elves where a part of norse mythology, all elves since have been based on these.  The elves of norse mythology where tall and possessed nearly omnipotent god like powers.   They where split into light and dark elves the former using their immense power to protect and benefit mankind, the latter using it, obviously, to hurt humans.

Modifié par Sharn01, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:25 .

[HolyAvenger]

Elves or similar exist in several different mythologies (faerie/Fair Folk). There is no true 'canon' elves.

[Sharn01]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Elves or similar exist in several different mythologies (faerie/Fair Folk). There is no true 'canon' elves.

Except there is, I would call the original elves the ones that made their first appearance in folklore.  When they can be historically traced to have been adopted from norse mythology, where they where not faerie's, to other folklore centuries later, it clearly shows where they come from, and where cultures adapted other folklore to fit their own.

[AlanC9]

Sharn01 wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Wow, feel the anger in this thread.

Elves should be shorter. That's one of their hats. But oh well, I don't really care.

Actually, they have always been taller, D&D and its copycats are the only place you will find short elves, at least elves that are actually based on the elves on legend, and not something rediculous like santa elves.

Source?

[Piecake]

An elf is a being of Norse mythology. The elves were originally thought of as a race of divine or semi-divine beings (wights, vættir) endowed with magical powers, which they use both for the benefit and the injury of mankind. In medieval Norse mythology, they appear to have been divided into light elves and dark elves, difficult to delineate from the Æsir (gods) on one hand and the dvergar (dwarves) on the other.



In early modern and modern folklore, they become associated with the fairies of Romance folklore and assume a diminutive size, often living underground in hills or rocks, or in wells and springs. 19th-century Romanticism attempted to restore them to full stature, often depicting them as very young, probably adolescent (lack of facial hair on male elves), men and women of great beauty.



From their depiction in Romanticism, elves entered the 20th-century high fantasy genre in the wake of the published work of J. R. R. Tolkien (especially the posthumous publication of his Silmarillion where Tolkien's treatment of the relation of light elves, dark elves, black elves and dwarves in Norse mythology is made explicit).



The "Christmas elves" of contemporary pop culture were popularized during the 1870s in the United States, in publications such as Godey's Lady's Book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elves



From Wikipedia, so take that as you will

[Sabariel]

wulfsturm wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Actually, they have always been taller, D&D and its copycats are the only place you will find short elves, at least elves that are actually based on the elves on legend, and not something rediculous like santa elves.

Newsflash: Tolkien didn't invent elves.

Indeed. Everyone knows that the good people at Keebler's did

[wulfsturm]

Piecake wrote...

An elf is a being of Norse mythology. The elves were originally thought of as a race of divine or semi-divine beings (wights, vættir) endowed with magical powers, which they use both for the benefit and the injury of mankind. In medieval Norse mythology, they appear to have been divided into light elves and dark elves, difficult to delineate from the Æsir (gods) on one hand and the dvergar (dwarves) on the other.

In early modern and modern folklore, they become associated with the fairies of Romance folklore and assume a diminutive size, often living underground in hills or rocks, or in wells and springs. 19th-century Romanticism attempted to restore them to full stature, often depicting them as very young, probably adolescent (lack of facial hair on male elves), men and women of great beauty.

From their depiction in Romanticism, elves entered the 20th-century high fantasy genre in the wake of the published work of J. R. R. Tolkien (especially the posthumous publication of his Silmarillion where Tolkien's treatment of the relation of light elves, dark elves, black elves and dwarves in Norse mythology is made explicit).

The "Christmas elves" of contemporary pop culture were popularized during the 1870s in the United States, in publications such as Godey's Lady's Book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elves

From Wikipedia, so take that as you will

My eyes may be deceiving me, but nowere does it state that elves were originally thought to be taller then humans.

[Ju13es]

how gives a ****? Saying all elves must be shorter in stature is like saying all black people have to be tall

[Piecake]

wulfsturm wrote...

My eyes may be deceiving me, but nowere does it state that elves were originally thought to be taller then humans.

To be fair, that is a painfully short overview of elf literary history, so its not surprising that something like wouldnt mention height.  I think the more relevant portions are when they were turned into fairies, and then made adolescents, though i guess the adolescents could still be taller than humans

[Harid]

Ju13es wrote...

how gives a ****? Saying all elves must be shorter in stature is like saying all black people have to be tall

They really need to make a Godwin's Law for Black people in arguments over the internet.  I think I've seen it all.

[atheelogos]

Harid wrote...

Ju13es wrote...

how gives a ****? Saying all elves must be shorter in stature is like saying all black people have to be tall

They really need to make a Godwin's Law for Black people in arguments over the internet.  I think I've seen it all.

lol

[KatieLauren]

Okay.

I feel like a total douche.

My crappy PC cut off the concept art picture right after the qunari, so it looked like you'd cropped it. I was just being stupid and didn't think "Oh duh, it's cut off".

It don't think you, Ryzaki, needed to get so worked up about it.

But, yeah. My apologies, folks(:

[drahelvete]

Sharn01 wrote...

wulfsturm wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Actually, they have always been taller, D&D and its copycats are the only place you will find short elves, at least elves that are actually based on the elves on legend, and not something rediculous like santa elves.

Newsflash: Tolkien didn't invent elves.

No kidding, elves where a part of norse mythology, all elves since have been based on these.  The elves of norse mythology where tall and possessed nearly omnipotent god like powers.   They where split into light and dark elves the former using their immense power to protect and benefit mankind, the latter using it, obviously, to hurt humans.

They were always depicted as the same height as humans. In fact, going by viking age images, they looked excactly like humans (even if the myths inform us that they were much more beautiful). They were not omnipotent gods, they were more akin to ancestor spirits (not the ghost variety, since they could still produce offspring and even interbreed with humans). There seems to have been some crossover with the Vanir - the fertility gods, but the Vanir weren't omnipotent either. The ljósálfar (light elves) weren't in any way more good than the svartálfar (dark elves). They were probably called light because they lived on the surface - in the light, while the svartálfar lived underground - in the dark. It may also have had something to do with the ljósálfar being followers of Freyr, a god of light. The svartálfar may have been identical with the dvergar (dwarves). They're sometimes described as greedy, but never as malicious.

[Mecha Tengu]

Sharn01 wrote...

wulfsturm wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Actually, they have always been taller, D&D and its copycats are the only place you will find short elves, at least elves that are actually based on the elves on legend, and not something rediculous like santa elves.

Newsflash: Tolkien didn't invent elves.

No kidding, elves where a part of norse mythology, all elves since have been based on these.  The elves of norse mythology where tall and possessed nearly omnipotent god like powers.   They where split into light and dark elves the former using their immense power to protect and benefit mankind, the latter using it, obviously, to hurt humans.

tolkien invented tall elves that sing and cry "OH WOEZ IS ME"

Before, elves were magical creatures with wings or santa's sweatshop labourers.

though later Tolkien retconned his elves to be more serious, grim, and of course pew pew legolas archery skills

That is where the fantasy elf trope came from. D & D took the homoerotic overtones of elves and made it gothic to produce emo dark elves. BLahhhhh

[AlexXIV]

wulfsturm wrote...

Piecake wrote...

An elf is a being of Norse mythology. The elves were originally thought of as a race of divine or semi-divine beings (wights, vættir) endowed with magical powers, which they use both for the benefit and the injury of mankind. In medieval Norse mythology, they appear to have been divided into light elves and dark elves, difficult to delineate from the Æsir (gods) on one hand and the dvergar (dwarves) on the other.

In early modern and modern folklore, they become associated with the fairies of Romance folklore and assume a diminutive size, often living underground in hills or rocks, or in wells and springs. 19th-century Romanticism attempted to restore them to full stature, often depicting them as very young, probably adolescent (lack of facial hair on male elves), men and women of great beauty.

From their depiction in Romanticism, elves entered the 20th-century high fantasy genre in the wake of the published work of J. R. R. Tolkien (especially the posthumous publication of his Silmarillion where Tolkien's treatment of the relation of light elves, dark elves, black elves and dwarves in Norse mythology is made explicit).

The "Christmas elves" of contemporary pop culture were popularized during the 1870s in the United States, in publications such as Godey's Lady's Book.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elves

From Wikipedia, so take that as you will

My eyes may be deceiving me, but nowere does it state that elves were originally thought to be taller then humans.

They were thought to be what we would call demons or spirits or something like that. They had all different sizes, though those who were actually larger than men were the most intimidating. If I remember correctly though they more often than not appeared in the shape of men, so they were actually equally sized to men.

[AlexXIV]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

wulfsturm wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Actually, they have always been taller, D&D and its copycats are the only place you will find short elves, at least elves that are actually based on the elves on legend, and not something rediculous like santa elves.

Newsflash: Tolkien didn't invent elves.

No kidding, elves where a part of norse mythology, all elves since have been based on these.  The elves of norse mythology where tall and possessed nearly omnipotent god like powers.   They where split into light and dark elves the former using their immense power to protect and benefit mankind, the latter using it, obviously, to hurt humans.

tolkien invented tall elves that sing and cry "OH WOEZ IS ME"

Before, elves were magical creatures with wings or santa's sweatshop labourers.

though later Tolkien retconned his elves to be more serious, grim, and of course pew pew legolas archery skills

That is where the fantasy elf trope came from. D & D took the homoerotic overtones of elves and made it gothic to produce emo dark elves. BLahhhhh

They origin from norse mythology and then have been adopted by other culteres, i.e. celtic, who had their own interpretation of elves. In any way they were always supernatural beings of light and darkness, or good and evil if you like. Your x-mas elves came much, much later. Neither Tolkien, nor D&D, nor most other fantasy labels depict them the way they originally were. People who are interested in norse mythology can read it up though, since there are books on this topic. It is partly hard to read though. Especially the original texts/translations.

Anyway, the DA elves are different anyway, because they are basically like humans with pointy ears and more delicate physics. Why they were/are smaller than humans is probably a heritage of BG/BG2 since in this setting they also were pretty much like in DA now.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:11 .

[AlexXIV]

David Gaider wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I think the obvious point is that Fenris is an LI. We can take it as a given now since there is no other reason to change male elves height and human females height only. They made it to match Fenris to femHawke. Since if you think that Fenris could be the only straight LI for femHawke they don't want him to be smaller as well.

Seriously?

So we thought that Zevran, say, was too short. If anyone didn't buy him as a love interest, that was why. So we're going to go in and change the heights of all elves to accommodate this assumed all-important romance with Fenris, because female players just wouldn't accept it otherwise? It couldn't be because of the other reasons I stated, it has to be some heightist conspiracy?

I've heard some bizarre notions on this forum from time to time. Occasionally there's even some truth to them, even if they're bent out of proportion-- but this one takes the cake.

Incidentally, we haven't changed the height of human females. Not sure why you think so, or why anyone would think a love interest would have to "match" anything. I think this teaches me to answer questions, if this is the sort of stuff people can conjure up to justify their dislike of a change. Wow.

Your reasons were interaction and animations. Which would have been a perfect reason to make all elves and humans same size, also females and males. And I am a supporter of same-sized toons, not sure where you got the impression of the opposite. I never said I am unhappy with what you did there, I am only one of many who don't understand it. If I am not all wrong we have 4 different sizes for 2 races and 2 genders now. Why not make them all same size? Wouldn't that have been easier?

[David Gaider]

AlexXIV wrote...
Your reasons were interaction and animations.

As well as not wanting to make elves look like children, coupled with the rest of their appearance change.

Which would have been a perfect reason to make all elves and humans same size, also females and males. And I am a supporter of same-sized toons, not sure where you got the impression of the opposite. I never said I am unhappy with what you did there, I am only one of many who don't understand it. If I am not all wrong we have 4 different sizes for 2 races and 2 genders now. Why not make them all same size? Wouldn't that have been easier?

Yes, having every model be exactly the same size would, in fact, be easiest. Making things easier for ourselves does not mean wanting to make everything uniform-- these decisions to not exist in isolation of each other. In this case, given the fact that we didn't want thin elves to simply look like young humans (as in their silhouette-- their face is already quite different), the fact that it also helps with our variations in character height (an issue which had been identified in Origins as something that made scenes of interaction between variable characters expensive) makes that even better.

I'll point out that you didn't say you didn't understand our reasoning or that you didn't agree with it-- you said the only reason that we could possibly want to make all elves taller was so Fenris and a female Hawke would "match" romantically, as we evidently find short romance interests unacceptable. Which is not only discarding what I said, regardless of whether you agree with it, but also something we can't possibly defend against. "Unfortunate Implications" trope aside, I consider that low. Take that for what it's worth.

Modifié par David Gaider, 21 janvier 2011 - 05:16 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Hey David, please, now that you have clout in Bioware as a respected lead writer could you swing that clout around your head like a mighty club so that maybe in DA 3 we can scale our characters' bodies in the character creation screen? The character creation options are great for the head of our characters but it would be nice if all the humans, dwarves and elves weren't a set racial height but could have variations within their race. Playing as a tall dwarf, or a short human could be a nice touch.