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[In Exile]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...
 The character creation options are great for the head of our characters but it would be nice if all the humans, dwarves and elves weren't a set racial height but could have variations within their race. Playing as a tall dwarf, or a short human could be a nice touch.

That would give the cinematic team a lot more work. Basically, they'd have to scall all cinematics to your character's body.

If they wanted to do this, it would have to basically be like a 3-spread of short, average, tall. A continuous spectrum would be too much.

Modifié par In Exile, 21 janvier 2011 - 05:25 .

[Beerfish]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Hey David, please, now that you have clout in Bioware as a respected lead writer could you swing that clout around your head like a mighty club so that maybe in DA 3 we can scale our characters' bodies in the character creation screen? The character creation options are great for the head of our characters but it would be nice if all the humans, dwarves and elves weren't a set racial height but could have variations within their race. Playing as a tall dwarf, or a short human could be a nice touch.

Very difficult to do because of the reasons they stated before.  Animations, cutscenes, conversations.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Other successful games do it...?

[Black_Warden]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Other successful games do it...?

for example? keeping in mind, for an acceptable comparison, you'd need to find a game(s) that have similar types of PC interaction with NPCs, and potentially PC interaction with environments.

[AlexXIV]

David Gaider wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Your reasons were interaction and animations.

As well as not wanting to make elves look like children, coupled with the rest of their appearance change.

Which would have been a perfect reason to make all elves and humans same size, also females and males. And I am a supporter of same-sized toons, not sure where you got the impression of the opposite. I never said I am unhappy with what you did there, I am only one of many who don't understand it. If I am not all wrong we have 4 different sizes for 2 races and 2 genders now. Why not make them all same size? Wouldn't that have been easier?

Yes, having every model be exactly the same size would, in fact, be easiest. Making things easier for ourselves does not mean wanting to make everything uniform-- these decisions to not exist in isolation of each other. In this case, given the fact that we didn't want thin elves to simply look like young humans (as in their silhouette-- their face is already quite different), the fact that it also helps with our variations in character height (an issue which had been identified in Origins as something that made scenes of interaction between variable characters expensive) makes that even better.

I'll point out that you didn't say you didn't understand our reasoning or that you didn't agree with it-- you said the only reason that we could possibly want to make all elves taller was so Fenris and a female Hawke would "match" romantically, as we evidently find short romance interests unacceptable. Which is not only discarding what I said, regardless of whether you agree with it, but also something we can't possibly defend against. "Unfortunate Implications" trope aside, I consider that low. Take that for what it's worth.

Maybe because I didn't think it is a bad thing. I mean to change male elven height because of Fenris. If you didn't do it, alright. But if you did it I wouldn't have seen anything bad with it. After all he is a companion and possible LI, which is imo more important than random elves around the place. I am also one who prefers if the male is taller than the female. And I believe most people would agree. Whether it is right or wrong to think like that is on another page.

[TheRealJayDee]

Yeah, all general elven history aside, I'm still curious about the elves in Dragon Age. Because it's still fact that every single adult elf we met in DA:O was perceivably shorter than every single adult human. So excuse me if I don't give a damn about how elves are depicted in other fantasy works, Thedas is not Arda, Thedas isn't the world of Warhammer, Thedas isn't one of the established D&D settings, it's not Norse mythology. It's a newly created, unrelated fantasy world. With, as it seemed in DA:O, short elves.

If this changed I already said I'd have to accept it, but I'd still really like a definite answer why. I get the “we want to make elves more distinct” part of the adjustments regarding faces and physique, but the height? Really technical considerations?

Oh well, maybe I’m just narrow minded for having problems with major redesigns of one of the most prominent races from one game to the next. Most people don’t seem to care, so yeah, maybe it’s me...



Edit: That's what you get for writing something, and then answering the door before you post it.

As for Fenris, I'd have no problem at all if he was a special "big LI" elf. After the discussions here I already imagine part of his forgotten past was spending a long time on a rack, while being fed Lyrium enhanced growth hormones. Just so he can fit the romantic ideas of his height troubled Tevinter mistress, who loves him but cannot stand being taller than him...

Modifié par TheRealJayDee, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:16 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

I can't remember that elf height was actually somewhat codified in setting, so unless there is some memory in a Codex which states that elves stand '5 feet tall and no more, then.. meyh.

[ankuu]

Black_Warden wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Other successful games do it...?

for example? keeping in mind, for an acceptable comparison, you'd need to find a game(s) that have similar types of PC interaction with NPCs, and potentially PC interaction with environments.

Do you know Sims? Sims that great life simulator that is BASED on looks? Doesn't have a height modifier...doesn't have a boob slider. What released game has this?

Wouldn't you want the devs to spend money on more practical stuff like let's say, bug fixing?

Modifié par ankuu, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:22 .

[Addai]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Yeah, all general elven history aside, I'm still curious about the elves in Dragon Age. Because it's still fact that every single adult elf we met in DA:O was perceivably shorter than every single adult human. So excuse me if I don't give a damn about how elves are depicted in other fantasy works, Thedas is not Arda, Thedas isn't the world of Warhammer, Thedas isn't one of the established D&D settings, it's not Norse mythology. It's a newly created, unrelated fantasy world. With, as it seemed in DA:O, short elves.

Gaider already answered why on this thread.  It was to mitigate the fact that elves have a more slender profile (honestly I can't imagine them being more slender than in Origins??) so as not to make them look like children.  However people seem to have difficulty accepting this as a reason, I dunno why.  Maybe because we sure didn't get this impression with Merrill.

And if Fenris is representative of elven males, then elves are still shorter than humans.  They are also more slender and have other distinguishing features.  What's the problem?  I would have preferred that the ears stay the same, that retcons the look too, though there were always elven NPCs who had more prominent ears.  Chalk it up to individual differences, I guess.

[AtreiyaN7]

makenzieshepard wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Surely there must be some tall male elves somewhere. Who else would they put on the Dalish basketball team when the Thedas Olympics are held every couple of years? Someone has to take on the qunari team!

<--- not much sleep & very silly atm

May I present to you Muggsy "Bugsy" Bogues 5'3 shortest and one of the better players of all time?

And here he is blocking 7'0 Patrick Ewing.

David vs Goliath.  David  FTW!

LOL - nice. As a short chick (5'1" or so), hooray for a fellow shortie! Back to the Fenris thing though - I'd like to see some in-game shots of him with Lady Hawke, just to see exactly how tall he is compared to her. On a semi-serious note, perhaps exposure to humans made the elves physically shorter in addition to shortening their life-span. In any case, if Fen's height upsets someone, they can just pretend that he was blessed/cursed with an overactive pituitary gland!

[mellifera]

ankuu wrote...

Black_Warden wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Other successful games do it...?

for example? keeping in mind, for an acceptable comparison, you'd need to find a game(s) that have similar types of PC interaction with NPCs, and potentially PC interaction with environments.

Do you know Sims? Sims that great life simulator that is BASED on looks? Doesn't have a height modifier...doesn't have a boob slider. What released game has this?

Wouldn't you want the devs to spend money on more practical stuff like let's say, bug fixing?

There's a boob slider in an expansion pack!

[ankuu]

yukidama wrote...

ankuu wrote...

Black_Warden wrote...

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Other successful games do it...?

for example? keeping in mind, for an acceptable comparison, you'd need to find a game(s) that have similar types of PC interaction with NPCs, and potentially PC interaction with environments.

Do you know Sims? Sims that great life simulator that is BASED on looks? Doesn't have a height modifier...doesn't have a boob slider. What released game has this?

Wouldn't you want the devs to spend money on more practical stuff like let's say, bug fixing?

There's a boob slider in an expansion pack!

Rly? I only bought the base game so i didn't know that. I knew that there is a boob slider mod tho

Speaking of which, why aren't modders doing some different sized body models? I saw Zevran the human mod and lots of mods that altered the bodies.

Modifié par ankuu, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:59 .

[mellifera]

Yeah, in the most recent one. I can't remember the name. For what it's worth, the default chest looked fine IMO and the boob sliders only make it look really silly if you try for bigger. Nice to have the option, but implementation? Not always so nice.

[Ju13es]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Ju13es wrote...

how gives a ****? Saying all elves must be shorter in stature is like saying all black people have to be tall

ZOMG - and we have the stupidist segway in to racism of all time.  Who or when was there ever a stereotype stating that black people are tall?  I've never heard that one before in my life.  You're making this **** up.

For starters, you need to chill and not take what I said at face value.  im not talking about being racist, im talking about pointing out stereotypes. You sort of pointed out my point. The stereotype I used is an uncommon one, but still is one (in basketball for example). Maybe I could of used a more popular common stereotype such as most asians being very short. This is sort of stereoptpye is true for elves, for I and Im sure other people have never heard of elves actually always being shorter than people. There are variations in all races. An elves staturemay be generally shorter but there are exceptions, for human hieght is exteremely varied as well. For a game, using one model for each sex for each race makes sense because having all the in betweens would be somewhat of a pain in the ass, even though it may add realism.

And all in all, I for one think the complaint of elven males being taller than human females is a pointless one. In my opinion, It doesn't REALLY matter. It doesnt have any effect on gameplay in any way.

[jackkel dragon]

This is still going? Is it that big a change?
Will it change the franchise forever because elves might be taller?

Just so he can fit the romantic ideas of his height troubled Tevinter mistress, who loves him but cannot stand being taller than him...

Edit: Added quote related to link, to encourage clicky.

Modifié par jackkel dragon, 21 janvier 2011 - 08:55 .

[Ju13es]

its hard to interpret a persons attitude through text

[ReallyRue]

I liked romancing a guy who was shorter than my PC. I don't want my Hawke to be short compared to all men in the game who aren't dwarves.

[Bryzon]

How about have an open mind and say "Sure, why not." Just because you expect something to be a certain way (human women's height), doesn't mean it should be. It might be healthy to just wait and see the game in the context that it's creators intend to present.

[Eudaemonium]

I'd find it really funny if, after all this, Fenris wasn't an LI remotely.

[Saibh]

Eudaemonium wrote...

I'd find it really funny if, after all this, Fenris wasn't an LI remotely.

That would be hilarious. But there's still Merrill. And there's no way in hell at least one of them isn't a LI.

[ReallyRue]

Bryzon wrote...

How about have an open mind and say "Sure, why not." Just because you expect something to be a certain way (human women's height), doesn't mean it should be. It might be healthy to just wait and see the game in the context that it's creators intend to present.

It's not so much 'elves should be this height' and 'humans should be this height'. It's just that in just about every game, men are tall and women are shorter. It was nice to have an alternative to that. I guess dwarves are still short though, so that's good.

[Xavier St. Cloud]

Count me among those who really dug the shorter elves in DA:O, even compared to prospective female romances.

We've sure come a long way from Mario and Little Mac. In video games and American mass media, it's all but etched in stone that strong leading men be tall, as in at least 6' and taller than the lady opposite them.

http://www.celebheights.com/

Yet Morrigan did say my "little man" was full of surprises... squee!

Having the elves short - like they've been in certain past sources, HEROQUEST!! - allowed for something enjoyably against type. I'm no fan of morbid obesity but I still dug the Dwarven double wammy of smaller height and larger girth in the main protagonist.

Who do we have in DA II? Why, none other than the usual tall dark stranger. Well, **** 'im.

Modifié par Xavier St. Cloud, 31 mars 2011 - 02:04 .

[Dark83]

The elves were shorter in DAO because the Ferelden elves were undernourished. All they had were brown and dirt.
The elves in DA2 are taller because the Free Marches have better hunting grounds.

Just like how heights tend to be geographically distributed on Earth. Bam!