824 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonia]

Well said, Saibh. Those were my thoughts on the matter as well though I couldn't never quite find the right words to express it.

[Ulicus]

Weevilbits wrote...
 
Having grown up on D&D more than Tolkien, I think of shorter elves as the more "stereotypical" choice, and taller elves as somewhat more novel.

Ditto.

[Wynne]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Seriously? Why would you do this, BioWare?

Because some people, for a reason I don't fathom at all, think this isn't frickin' cute as hell:
I personally think those people are nuts. But there's no accounting for taste, I guess.

I have no personal bias for tall chick/short dude, being 5'1", but I think they're so damned cute they should have bunnies and puppies prancing around them. Tall people look adorable with short people no matter the gender, in my book.

Maria Caliban wrote...

I accept that people who are into
Fenris are so petty they can't stand to romance anyone shorter than
them. However, I'm so petty, I don't want to be shorter than elves.

I'm
sure that Male Hawke will still be taller than elves and if they ever
show female qunari, they'll be slightly shorter or the same height as
male humans.

Ahem. Go read my rhapsodic soliloquoy about short dude/tall chick on the Fenris thread and then try to say that crap. <_< I've noticed that you make bones about other people forgetting to specify things, for instance that they meant the male LIs for a female (and the person you took to task for disliking non-straight people was, hilariously, a bisexual), so I feel no qualms about pointing out your failure to specify that you meant "most people." If you don't like it when other people forget to be sensitive to your own unique qualities, you probably should try to remember not to generalize and thus make others feel that way. Be the change you wish to see and all that inspirational bs.

Now I'm going to go right back to loving you for your quirks instead of being annoyed at you for them.

Personally, I liked going from playing a dwarven shorty and romancing Alistair to being a tall chick and looking down at Zevran. I thought it was awesome, the feeling of how different it was. And I thought my male elf looked adorable with Morrigan.

My girl could TOWER over Fenris and I'd not mind at all. It's not the height I love about him, it's just him. The only thing I'd miss would be the chance to play a dwarf and see him from another angle.

Calla S wrote...

Fanrage. The word for it is fanrage, and I feel it. I feel it down into my bones.

Me too. I hate, hate, hate, hate, hate, and actually find myself offended by--well, not a preference for tall guy/short chick IRL, but distinctly the idea that in general, the woman always has to be shorter and look up at the man--that it otherwise looks ridiculous or weird. It implies a mindset that is both superficial and misogynistic, which assumes that personal preference invalidates other preferences.

Don't get me wrong--I get that people have attachments sometimes to whatever they're used to--I get that especially well, being a short chick who's only ever dated tall people, and I assume Bioware did this because it makes the animations and such easier. I get the emotional and practical aspects here.

But with some people, it gets to the point where they actually look at a couple like the photo up there and go, "Ew, that just looks wrong." Which makes me steam up a bit--I mean, interracial and homosexual couples (depending on where they live) sometimes have to really work up the courage to go out in public together, and I think tall chick/short dude couples actually face a similar bias. That should not be. It just should not be. People should be able to go out in public without getting dirty looks, whispers, and giggles. Just thinking about it makes me angry.

So while I'm trying to accept this due to knowing the probable reasons, there's still this part of me that both on a fan level and a personality level that is like "NOOOOOOOOOOO YOOOOOOOOOOOU BASTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARDS!"

So, yeah. I get it, but I cannot help the nerdrage that fills my heart.

Calla S wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Calla S wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
Just another annoying and pointless retcon all for the sake of ye olde Hot Rod Samurai.

Dear god. I feel like the world was going to end. You said this, and I didn't roll my eyes. I nodded.

WHAT IS LIFE I NO LONGER UNDERSTAND ANYTHING

CALLA HOLD ME THE WORLD IS CLEARLY COLLAPSING AROUND US

*holds yuki to bosom* NOTHING MAKES SENSE DOWN IS UP GREEN IS RED-VIOLET

No, don't be afraid! He could still be partially wrong. For instance, if they didn't do it for ye olde Hot Rod Samurai, but because it makes the animations easier so they can focus on doing them well instead of making as many kissing anims for different heights. *hugs you both* It will be all right, you'll see.

Shepard Lives wrote...

I loved that DAO elves were
shorter because A) it made sense, seeing as their species evolved in
forests it was a very nice way to further differentiate them from
more "traditional", Tolkien-esque elves (I'm an elf! Tra la la la la! I'm tall and pretty and immortal and I 'm better than you at everything! Douchebags.). I also thought it was very endearing that my male Warden was shorter than Leliana, but that's secondary.

These reasons mirror my own internal ones.

Especially B. *giggles at the tall-pretty-immortal-douchebags thing* I love Tolkien and all, but yeah.

ViSeirA wrote...

It looked ridiculous when my female Cousland decided to romance Zev....

Now, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Why is it ridiculous for a tall woman to fall in love with a short guy? Why is it ridiculous that she fall for someone rather than reject him for not having enough inches in height? Is real and lasting love not rare enough that height isn't so big a factor as lifelong happiness?

Besides, Zev loves to rest his head on a warm bosom. Just ask him. Would you deny him easy access to the bosoms he adores so much?

Cruel, cruel person.

[Jenova65]

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Seriously? Why would you do this, BioWare?

Heh. Funny that I would essentially say "I don't know, I've never compared them" and come back to this.

Looking in-game, it seems like Fenris is a tad shorter than my Male Hawke. It's not a marked difference, though. Same appears to be true for female elves.

As for those calling this a ret-con-- I don't know what to say there, really. Humans come in a variety of sizes, despite the fact we only model one. Same applies to elves. Why someone would be especially attached to elves being markedly shorter than humans I really have no idea, but there's nothing that requires that they be. Dwarves are a different story. The word "dwarf" kind of requires that they be a particular height... that doesn't apply to the elves.

But I guess people will get attached to different things? Well, there you go.

It actually doesn't bother me, if anything I quite like it, I am only 5' 2'' and my husband is a foot taller than me. I'm not fussed on short men.
I feel like a right weirdy in Fable III, for example, as using certain skills more than others makes you taller............ I mean, way taller..... And my female gun toting wizardy type, towers over everyone like some freakish Amazon who picks up a man and demands 'snu nu'! 
In Mass Effect I have lost count of the times my femshep has stood by Kaidan just to make sure he is taller 

[Count Viceroy]

Jenova65 wrote...

I feel like a right weirdy in Fable III, for example, as using certain skills more than others makes you taller............ I mean, way taller..... And my female gun toting wizardy type, towers over everyone like some freakish Amazon who picks up a man and demands 'snu nu'! 

It's a result of being a hero and leveling your melee/gun skill, supposedly makes you more grand. At least it's better than fable 2. Where females would not only grow twice as high as normal people, they'd also gain as much muscle as their male counterparts and be twice as wide as well.
 

[Jenova65]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Jenova65 wrote...

I feel like a right weirdy in Fable III, for example, as using certain skills more than others makes you taller............ I mean, way taller..... And my female gun toting wizardy type, towers over everyone like some freakish Amazon who picks up a man and demands 'snu nu'! 

It's a result of being a hero and leveling your melee/gun skill, supposedly makes you more grand. At least it's better than fable 2. Where females would not only grow twice as high as normal people, they'd also gain as much muscle as their male counterparts and be twice as wide as well.
 

Yes, I know................... I didn't want to bother people with the details, lol  And I agree the muscle was disturbing, I never paid any skill points into it.

[packardbell]

Having a woman taller than you is so intimidating. Gotta feel sorry for Tom Cruise.

[Count Viceroy]

Jenova65 wrote...

Yes, I know................... I didn't want to bother people with the details, lol [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie] And I agree the muscle was disturbing, I never paid any skill points into it.

My bad, then

Guess my point was, it could be much much worse

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 20 janvier 2011 - 04:03 .

[Jenova65]

packardbell wrote...

Having a woman taller than you is so intimidating. Gotta feel sorry for Tom Cruise.

Apparently not as intimidating as when we are smarter though, lol.......................... 

[Jenova65]

Count Viceroy wrote...

Jenova65 wrote...

Yes, I know................... I didn't want to bother people with the details, lol [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie] And I agree the muscle was disturbing, I never paid any skill points into it.

My bad, then

Guess my point was, it could be much much worse

It sure could have, as it is though she towers over Elliot (who I hate for not being Ben Finn............. *tale for another time*) like he is a small child 

Modifié par Jenova65, 20 janvier 2011 - 04:06 .

[Addai]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Siradix wrote...


Would making Fenris taller not be something you want considering the title of the thread? I wouldn't mind seeing some tall women from the same race in the game.

Fenris is one elf. Not all elves.

I accept that people who are into Fenris are so petty they can't stand to romance anyone shorter than them. However, I'm so petty, I don't want to be shorter than elves.

Wow, serious rage here?  I'm happy about the change, it always felt awkward with HNF and Zevran.  The fact that she was taller underscored what I felt was a power imbalance, that almost made it feel like sexual harrassment (I know that's funny with Zevran, but literally his life is in the Warden's hands, it just added a bit of awkwardness).  Does this make me a bad person?  I didn't reject the Zevran romance because of it, I just paired him with some elves.

[tmp7704]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Seriously? Why would you do this, BioWare?

If what Mr.Gaider says is correct i want to laugh because it does confirm the politician-like response we got when the concept art surfaced up originally, how "the height may be not to scale" was in fact evasive BS it seemed to be. But i'm too annoyed by such change to genuinely laugh about it.

Shorter elves combined with their backstory were two things that i really liked; made them quite appealing whereas i normally dislike the stuck-up "fair folk" image so common in other fiction. To have it changed... it's just one extra thing that makes me more and more meh about the whole franchise and where they're taking it.

For all the talk about how DAO was too much like generic fantasy and how they're trying to make something that stands out, quite a bit of what they actually do happens to be an exact opposite.

[David Gaider]

Wynne wrote...
 For instance, if they didn't do it for ye olde Hot Rod Samurai, but because it makes the animations easier so they can focus on doing them well instead of making as many kissing anims for different heights. *hugs you both* It will be all right, you'll see.

I'm not sure what about having elves be a bit taller is "Hot Rod Samurai". Is there something inherently awesome about that which I'm missing?

If you're looking for reasons, one big one is the animation part, as you mention. Any animations involving characters interacting becomes more complicated when models are of different heights. We'd like to have more interaction. Therefore reducing the number of variables makes perfect sense.

Another reason is that we don't need elves to be a lot shorter in order to look different from humans. They already look different, now. Combined with them being very thin, making them also a lot smaller would risk them looking like children. If you really want to complain about something being changed, the alteration in their overall style is the the big one. Their height... yeah, not so much. Unless you have a thing about the height of a potential elven romance, I guess, which it appears some people do. i get that some people interpreted the height of their model in Origins as some kind of statement, but that was never intended to be the case.

And I'll leave it at that. This is what I get for off-handedly mentioning things. Chris is gonna come glare at me, I just know it.

Modifié par David Gaider, 20 janvier 2011 - 04:20 .

[Ulicus]

packardbell wrote...

Having a woman taller than you is so intimidating. Gotta feel sorry for Tom Cruise.

I'll feel sorry for him when he's bankrupt. Until then, not so much.

[Reverie]

I really think some people are putting way too much emphasis on height.

[Ryzaki]

So if a woman dates a guy shorter than them there's a power imbalance and harassment? Gotta love some of the posts in here.

So I guess power imbalances, looking down and harassment is fine and dandy when its male on female. The reverse though....oh noes.

*not aimed at any specific person before it even comes*

Makes me feel like some weirdo for dating dudes shorter than me.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 janvier 2011 - 04:18 .

[Shepard Lives]

David Gaider wrote...

As for those calling this a ret-con-- I don't know what to say there, really. Humans come in a variety of sizes, despite the fact we only model one. Same applies to elves. Why someone would be especially attached to elves being markedly shorter than humans I really have no idea, but there's nothing that requires that they be. Dwarves are a different story. The word "dwarf" kind of requires that they be a particular height... that doesn't apply to the elves.

I don't know, Dave. It seemed to me that in Thedas, the average elf would always be shorter than the average human. There might be taller or shorter elves, as there are shorter and taller humans, but as a rule of thumb an elf should be shorter than a human. It seemed pretty set in stone.
I still consider this a retcon.  

EDIT - Yeah sure, now elves look decidedly different than humans, but was it really necessary to axe the height difference? I mean, were the animation problems that big?

Modifié par Shepard Lives, 20 janvier 2011 - 04:21 .

[Eudaemonium]

packardbell wrote...

Having a woman taller than you is so intimidating. Gotta feel sorry for Tom Cruise.

Seeing as my girlfriend is 6'2", which is a good 5-6 inches taller than me, I have to disagree. Much like Zevran, I like resting my head on a busom.

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

So if a woman dates a guy shorter than them there's a power imbalance and harassment? Gotta love some of the posts in here.

So I guess power imbalances and harassment is fine and dandy when its male on female. The reverse though....oh noes.

*not aimed at any specific person before it even comes*

So why do you quote my words if it's not specific to any one person?

Look, this is a game.  I'm not obligated to be socially conscious in my game choices.  It just felt weird to pair Zevran with my HNF, and height was part of that weirdness.  Shouldn't have tried to explain it, I guess.  The forum can't handle nuance.  Or logic.

[Leonia]

Addai67 wrote...

Look, this is a game.  I'm not obligated to be socially conscious in my game choices.  It just felt weird to pair
Zevran with my HNF, and height was part of that weirdness.  Shouldn't have tried to explain it, I guess.  The forum can't handle nuance.  Or logic.

That's some interesting logic..

My only real problem with the height issue is having to "rethink" elven characters that I have always thought as being shorter than their human counterparts. Namely: Zevran, Fiona, Katriel, any Dalish or City-elf Warden that fell for Morrigan/Alistair, etc.

Modifié par leonia42, 20 janvier 2011 - 04:25 .

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

So why do you quote my words if it's not specific to any one person?

Look, this is a game.  I'm not obligated to be socially conscious in my game choices.  It just felt weird to pair Zevran with my HNF, and height was part of that weirdness.  Shouldn't have tried to explain it, I guess.  The forum can't handle nuance.  Or logic.

I didn't quote you. *well I edited so the singling out wasn't so strong.

Never said you were supposed to be socially conscious.

And how exactly is that logic?  Saying a dude shorter than a chick is weird isn't logic. Any more than saying a dwarf romance is ick is logic.

Personal preference is one thing but logic? No.

You're fine to have your preferences. I just disliked your choice of words to be honest. Harassment is quite strong for a simple height difference. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 20 janvier 2011 - 04:25 .

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

As for those calling this a ret-con-- I don't know what to say there, really. Humans come in a variety of sizes, despite the fact we only model one. Same applies to elves.

Can we get this one straight, if possible, then? Are elves in DA on average a head or so shorter than humans, or are they on average of human-like height?

The thing about making it sound like you didn't possibly realize how having every single elf in game appear considerably shorter than every single human... could be perceived by the players as species-wide characteristics, i'm sorry but that's pretty laughable.

Why someone would be especially attached to elves being markedly shorter than humans I really have no idea, but there's nothing that requires that they be.

Different height is one extra factor that sets them apart from humans when it comes to appearance. To say one doesn't get why it could be preferred as part of the species image, that's like saying one doesn't get why someone could get especially attached to the idea of dwarves being short and/or stocky.

Modifié par tmp7704, 20 janvier 2011 - 04:27 .

[Addai]

Saibh wrote...
For the setting, I liked that they were shorter. They were oppressed, beaten down and trod upon, and being shorter than humans was a visual cue for that. They weren't the same Tolkien-esque High (n Mighty) Elves that we were all used to and, for some of us, annoyed with. They still had many of the same qualities, but they didn't feel like a race of perfect, enlightened beings. They felt like another species, though.

I suppose it was just a nice visual identifier that "these elves are not what you're used to". Nothing essential, but a nice change of pace nonetheless. Still, should Fenris be a LI, it'll be nice to not have to lean down. I always cringe.

OTOH, elves are also supposed to be fierce warriors, in their history at least.

I like the variety.  I was worried with Merrill being "tiny" that the elves were going to look even more like children.  I'm happy with her being tiny as long as that doesn't apply to all elves.  And I think the variety in heights is more realistic anyway, rather than as a racial trait.

I'm a little more peeved about this no shoe business...

[Ryzaki]

...They can be fierce warriors and still be shorter than the average human though.

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...
I didn't quote you. *well I edited so the singling out wasn't so strong.

Never said you were supposed to be socially conscious.

And how exactly is that logic?  Saying a dude shorter than a chick is weird isn't logic. Any more than saying a dwarf romance is ick is logic.

Personal preference is one thing but logic? No.

You're fine to have your preferences. I just disliked your choice of words to be honest. Harassment is quite strong for a simple height difference. 

The breakdown in logic is that you were claiming I said the height difference consituted sexual harrassment.  I never said that.  I said it underscored what I already felt was a note of sexual harrassment in a human noble sleeping with an elf whose life is literally in her hands.

Sorry you took such offense at my choice of words.  Hope that clears it up.