215 réponses à ce sujet

[Nashiktal]

Oh come on now! Quit bringing real life religious debate into this. We are talking about a fantasy game here.

[moilami]

Nashiktal wrote...

Oh come on now! Quit bringing real life religious debate into this. We are talking about a fantasy game here.

Right.

In DA universe it is kinda very obvious that gods exist. The Urn of Sacred Ashes gives strong indication that there could be some real grounds for existense of gods (but it is not strong enough proof). Who knows if everything regarding gods is just lies and beliefs. So the real question could be is there any hard concrete proof for existense of gods. Hard concrete evidence. If there is not, it would still not mean there can't be gods. It would just mean there is no evidence. So in the end we can only know that there either is gods, or that we can't know is there gods. There is maybe no way to proof there is no gods.

[errant_knight]

They kind of left it open on the Urn, providing both a religious and secular explanation. But it's pretty hard to ignore that big honkin' Black City in the sky in the fade.

[AlanC9]

Which just proves that something is there. What that something is, we don't know.

[Sharn01]

Siradix wrote...

Hawke will handle it just like you Warden did.

So, free to choose most of the time with occasional slip ups where the only non douche bag dialog causes you to say "Praise the Maker!"

My Dailish had to pick jerk dialog options from time to time to simply not reference the Maker as his god despite his first contact with the religion being at Ostagar.

[Kenjimaster666]

Sharn01 wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Hawke will handle it just like you Warden did.

So, free to choose most of the time with occasional slip ups where the only non douche bag dialog causes you to say "Praise the Maker!"

My Dailish had to pick jerk dialog options from time to time to simply not reference the Maker as his god despite his first contact with the religion being at Ostagar.

Ahaha, I know right! xD

Thing about Dragon Age: Origins was sometimes I felt like I HAD to be religious. I like my character to reflect me, and I'm not a religious person, but I wouldn't be, as you said, a douche bag about it.

So I'm hoping we're given the choice to generally not be religious in Dragon Age II. So from my canonical perspective, to answer your question.... no, I don't believe the Maker exists. =)

[Harid]

Pretty sure the devs are leaving it ambiguous purposefully.

[Kimarous]

I started another mage character recently (since scrapped) and I had the encounter with Eleni Zinovi, the talking statue, in the Circle's basement. Remember that Eleni was turned to stone for being an oracle/seer of sorts, foretelling the fall of her master's kingdom, even knowing how he would react to such news. Bottom line, I view her as something of a credible source.

Eleni also foresaw that (paraphrased) she would remain like a statue until the Maker brought "their fires" to cleanse the world, or something to that extent. Regardless of the rest, I explicitly remember the Maker (assuming this is the same Maker that the Chantry believes in) being referenced as a "their."

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Not only I think that the Maker does not exist, but I think that the Chantry should not logically exist in a setting where a mage is the only person who can make wonders and heal other people. In D&D, power of belief make gods and clerics have as much power as arcane casters do, thus churches are a powerful force there to be reckoned with. But in DA:O, only templars can do some specific "wonders", and I pretty much think that with their coexistense with Circle they just use classy magic and lyrium to do that (after all, their best ability is nothing more than renamed Mana Clash).

I think Chantry is a "fail". If god's do not do anything and don't help you anyhow, while Blood Mages are like everywhere and can toy and play with Church as they like, already the revolution should have happened. Mages can heal, protect, teach. Priests can only shout empty speeches of the old dusty past.

[Face of Evil]

I can't rule out the possibility that the Maker doesn't exist, but I truly think he does.



What was it that Gaxkhang said? "Eyes are on you from a very high vantage point …"

[Harid]

There are churches in real life whose gods don't do **** or prove their existence in any tangible way. There has been no revolution to tear down churches. Why is it farfetched for there to be one in this games' lore, and likewise for no revolution to occur?

Even in D&D there were gods that were praised and worshipped when they would not (or could not, or were dead) respond to their practioners.

I understand being an atheist in real life, but don't understand why atheists (in real life) cannot understand or deal with a god or gods existing in fantasy.  It's. . .fantasy.  That's the bloody point.

Should note that I am not blaming anyone for how this thread has gone.  the same could apply to theists.

Modifié par Harid, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:14 .

[Nashiktal]

Theists, Atheists, why do they have to make things so serious and not fun?

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

There has been no revolution to tear down churches.

That's a really confident thing to say. If we take medieval Catholic church as example, then it had many flights and fails for it's existence, dealing with feudal system of that time.
In real life you can't point your finger on someone and instantly heal him of wounds.
In D&D there were such cults, yes, but they were't presented to a player in games as some kind of allpowerful and everwatching organisation.
Explaining "fantasy" with "fantasy" is a bad thing to do, in my opinion.

Anyway, if I would run a Chantry, I would actually make my own brainwashed lyrium-casters, that would bring a word of Maker and demonstrate wonders (it would not be hard to think of explanation of some sorts why Maker is gone but TRUE believiers like my priests can cast "his blessings") to everyone, while mages would sit on their asses in a Tower and every other caster would be hunted and killed. That would actually make all wondermaking exclusive for my organisation thus making it powerful enough to influence the world. Chantry has templars, of course, but they seem to serve just one specific role, not persuade simple people who does't care about apostates and everything.

But maybe I am just evil.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:28 .

[Nashiktal]

Or just overly serious. I vote for that one.

[Harid]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

There has been no revolution to tear down churches.

That's a really confident thing to say. If we take medieval Catholic church as example, then it had many flights and fails for it's existence, dealing with feudal system of that time.
In real life you can't point your finger on someone and instantly heal him of wounds.
In D&D there were such cults, yes, but they were't presented to a player in games as some king of allpowerful and everwatching organisation.
Explaining "fantasy" with "fantasy" is a bad thing to do, in my opinion.

Anyway, if I would run a Chantry, I would actually make my own brainwashed lyrium-casters, that would bring a word of Maker and demonstrate wonders (it would not be hard to think of explanation of some sorts why Maker is gone but TRUE believiers like my priests can cast "his blessings") to everyone, while mages would sit on their asses in a Tower and every other caster would be hunted and killed. That would actually make all wondermaking exclusive for my organisation thus making it powerful enough to influence the world.

But maybe I am just evil.

And yet they remain.  We don't know enough about Dragon Age's Lore to say whether something similar has happened, or of something similar will happen, and regardless, there are always going to be believers in the time that Dragon Age is in.

Yes, in real life you can't point to someone and cure them of their wounds. . .what is your point, there are still people, world wide that believe in gods or a god.

As far as D&D. . .isn't that pretty much Amaunator?

As for you last statement, we don't have people creating fire from their fingertips.  It's cool in fantasy.  In the Dragon Age lore, it is not explained. I don't care.  Based on your logic, you should.  I have not seen you complain of it.  The reason why people believe in a Maker is adequately explained for me.

Modifié par Harid, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:30 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

I have not seen you complain of it.

Well, there is lyrium. While it's basically nothing more than "teh magic iself", "raw fade" and ecetera, there is some logic in it's existence, it's stated as Dune's "Spice" for DA:O world and Chantry has control of it (they can make Templars to cast their magics). But they does't seem to use this thing to it's potential.

Anyone could also pick some dust from random barrels and mix himself 500 bottles of lyrium.

[Harid]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

I have not seen you complain of it.

Well, there is lyrium. While it's basically nothing more than "teh magic iself", "raw fade" and ecetera, there is some logic in it's existence, it's stated as Dune's "Spice" for DA:O world and Chantry has control of it (they can make Templars to cast their magics). But they does't seem to use this thing to it's potential.
Anyone could also pick some dust from random barrels and mix himself 500 bottles of lyrium.

But everyone can't suck on some lyrium and become a mage.  Outside of birth, nothing else can make you a mage.  And the process of which the power is awakened is not clearly explained.

Modifié par Harid, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:53 .

[Fidget6]

I have to wonder if some of these comments about the theories of the "maker" of the Dragon Age universe reflect the poster's actual religious views.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

Outside of birth, nothing else can make you a mage.

Perhaps, but there is still abundant of mages running around the world doing lots of stuff - selling things, learning herbalism, healing dalish, leading bandit groups, helping dragon-cultists and so on.

Modifié par DamnThoseDisplayNames, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:59 .

[Harid]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Outside of birth, nothing else can make you a mage.

Perhaps, but there are still abundant of mages running around the world doing lots of stuff - selling things, learning herbalism, healing dalish, leading bandit groups, helping dragon-cultists and so on.

No disrespect, but I am kinda missing your point here.

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

No disrespect, but I am kinda missing your point here.

I think that those mages can serve people's needs much better than priests and templars, which makes idea of Chantry less believable for me.

[atheelogos]

Il Divo wrote...

He would handle the same way I make every Mage PC; laugh contemptuously and murder the poor fool who was stupid enough to ask the question. My Mages usually don't like religion.

same here. The Chantry abuses mages and my warden knows this first hand. So he tends not to believe what the Chantry says..... about anything. lol

And all my other characters have their doubts as well.

[Wyndham711]

What is so fascinating is that when in our world a reasonable person can't take a belief in a god further than deism (and many would argue even that's stretching it), in Thedas deism is something you at the very least have to agree to, to have an intellectually satisfying relation to the world.

When the case is so vague, other explanations are not offered, and the power of the Chantry is so immense, for any random Thedasian supposing that said creator is the Maker is not such a huge leap. Especially since in Thedas the Maker can't be disputed in philosophical grounds as easily as say the Christian God. For instance, the Chantry makes no claims that the maker will answer prayers, that he will protect or actually even care - not until everyone believes in him that is.

[atheelogos]

Fidget6 wrote...

I have to wonder if some of these comments about the theories of the "maker" of the Dragon Age universe reflect the poster's actual religious views.

Sometimes they do.

[Spartansfan8888]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

Not only I think that the Maker does not exist, but I think that the Chantry should not logically exist in a setting where a mage is the only person who can make wonders and heal other people. In D&D, power of belief make gods and clerics have as much power as arcane casters do, thus churches are a powerful force there to be reckoned with. But in DA:O, only templars can do some specific "wonders", and I pretty much think that with their coexistense with Circle they just use classy magic and lyrium to do that (after all, their best ability is nothing more than renamed Mana Clash).
I think Chantry is a "fail". If god's do not do anything and don't help you anyhow, while Blood Mages are like everywhere and can toy and play with Church as they like, already the revolution should have happened. Mages can heal, protect, teach. Priests can only shout empty speeches of the old dusty past.

Maybe there is power outside of magic as we know to be discovered, but right now you are right; they are the only ones capable of "wonder power."  To me, that makes the chantry's existence VERY logical.  You have a powerful minority that can throw fire around at will, shake the earth, and even control people's minds.  Such a powerful group is a small portion of the Dragon Age population and that fact means they will be oppressed by the fearful mob majority; especially when templars can be trained.  Ignoring how combat in the game works, storywise templar powers are more than capable of disabling a mage if the templars are prepared.  The common people probably adore an organization that can keep such power chained up and under control.