215 réponses à ce sujet

[Harid]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

No disrespect, but I am kinda missing your point here.

I think that those mages can serve people's needs much better than priests and templars, which makes idea of Chantry less believable for me.

I have an example here, given how the internet likes comparing everything to black people, but that is an aside.  For 8 or so years, I had dreds.  As a black man with dreds, I was asked things from being jamacian, to being a pothead.  I am none of these things, but as a black man with dreds I am compared to these things by people, and it's something I had to deal with when I had dreds.  I had one coworker who stated I looked 'professional' when I cut them off, wearing the same clothes I had on when I had them.  My point.

Even if there are a bunch of people doing good things, you are compared to the people who do bad things because thats what people do intrinsically.  You don't thank the movie theater for playing your movie properly, or having clean floors.  You don't thank the pilot for landing your plane safely (well, people do that wierd applause thing nowadays, but my point remains)  You don't thank a fast food joint for giving you fresh french fries.  No one does.  But people will remember sticky floors, old fries and a dry bun.  People don't care about the good that people do, because they are more directly affected by the bad.  A lot of people who think of the freedom of mages don't care about the villager who's children are being stolen by a blood mage.  If I were a mage, I'd want freedom.  I'd go to Rivain or the Tevinter imperium.  But for all the regular people, if it weren't for the Chantry, there would be a lot more Blackmarshes.  So I can understand as someone who hates playing mages why the Chantry has power.  Mages do a poor job of stopping the crazy.  And as such, an organization that controls them will be favored, when the majority of people aren't mages.

Modifié par Harid, 21 janvier 2011 - 08:42 .

[Fidget6]

Harid wrote...
You don't thank a fast food joint for giving you fresh french fries. 

I do, since that's such a rarity at Mceedee's.  

[White_Buffalo94]

NONE of my characters allow religion into the equation. As for Hawke, I suppose I'll let him, just to destroy them that is.

[trickybunny]

DarthCaine wrote...

Riloux wrote...

I think in this game, he does. The Urn of Sacred Ashes cured the Arl, did it not?

Bring Oghren with you. He'll explain that's it's the lyrium in the mountains affecting the ashes

Holy crap I had no idea...well then to answer the  OP's question then...NO.<_< I knew there was  a reason why I made my Warden *stay silent* during the prayers instead of finishing it

And Harid...that was beautiful man...and sad becuase it's true

Modifié par trickybunny, 21 janvier 2011 - 08:46 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

means they will be oppressed by the fearful mob majority

While you've made good point, from my point of view, I can still find some true believers even in modern times which, when forced to, believe just about in everything that can help them, visiting mediums and some occult-like organisations while still wearing a cross on their neck. And in dark times of the past, I don't think all the witches were feared, I think they just served their purpose. My country has an interesting history of being christianized and still visiting witches for advice.

an organization that controls them will be favored

I can understand that such an organisation can exist, I just don't much believe in one that we have in DA:O.



Why are't there "low ground" mages? Why lay sister's can't do some simple healing magic to popularise their church so everyone would actually see that "magic exists to serve men"? Why most mages in the game, exept maybe Wynne, don't care about the Maker?

It's just that in game there are like two types of mages - one of them helps troops in the army, and the other are blood and apostate mages that are so abundant in the game it seems every time you fight someone there is a mage with them.

I think it would be appropriate for the chantry to have some middle class mages, that heal and mix potions and everything.

[Harid]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

means they will be oppressed by the fearful mob majority

While you've made good point, from my point of view, I can still find some true believers even in modern times which, when forced to, believe just about in everything that can help them, visiting mediums and some occult-like organisations while still wearing a cross on their neck. And in dark times of the past, I don't think all the witches were feared, I think they just served their purpose. My country has an interesting history of being christianized and still visiting witches for advice.

Well, just because you are a believer doesn't stop you from being hypocritical.  I don't think anyone, for instance, follows the Bible or the Qur'an to a T.  It's kinda impossible.  And for some, the self will beat faith every time.

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

an organization that controls them will be favored

I can understand that such an organisation can exist, I just don't much believe in one that we have in DA:O.

Why are't there "low ground" mages? Why lay sister's can't do some simple healing magic to popularise their church so everyone would actually see that "magic exists to serve men"? Why most mages in the game, exept maybe Wynne, don't care about the Maker?
It's just that in game there are like two types of mages - one of them helps troops in the army, and the other are blood and apostate mages that are so abundant in the game it seems every time you fight someone there is a mage with them.
I think it would be appropriate for the chantry to have some middle class mages, that heal and mix potions and everything.

Well, Bioware didn't really do a good job of relating what medical care is like in the Dragon Age universe.  Hell, the Chantry holds it back, I believe (and that's in the lore IIRC), and that's bad.  But as far as I know you don't need a mage to be an apothecary.  Conversely, I don't think Bioware did the greatest of jobs in showing us that apostates deserve their autonomy.  I mean, you only really meet one good apostate mage, and the rest of them are awful people.  Which is why I find it funny that so many here can trust in apostates to be good people.  People in real life are in general, not that nice to each other, and conversely, I have to assume the same applies to the medieval times DA is in.  Mages haven't shown they deserve autonomy in the DA Lore.  I have to assume the reason why so many people support it is because they tend to play mages.  So I can understand why mages like Wynne exist.

Modifié par Harid, 21 janvier 2011 - 09:15 .

[UndercoverDoctor]

'Murder Your Maker'



Prototype 2

[thehistorysage]

Of course the Maker doesn't exist! Billions of years ago there was no code. Just a super dense ball of ones and zeros. The ball expanded until it exploded spewing binary bits all through out the hard drive. Soon there were many bundles of binary info. On these bundles, small strings of code randomly assembled themselves into bitmaps, polygons, and textures. These continued to evolve until the first minor NPC crawled from the primordial toolset. Over time his kind began to develop small side quests. From these eventually the larger story evolved until permanent party NPCs developed into the PC. It's science. No Maker required.

/sarcasm

[Ulicus]

My feeling: yes. Though in a panentheistic sense, rather than the way in which the Chantry knows him.

[Naitaka]

I bet the Maker is just the first Spirit/Demon to achieve self-awareness and has been messing around with the spirits and humanity alike ever since.

[Ruby Tabris]

I think I'll help the chantry by making every member I find a headshorter. Thedas will be a better place for it I think.

Modifié par Ruby Tabris, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:14 .

[Spartansfan8888]

DamnThoseDisplayNames wrote...

I can understand that such an organisation can exist, I just don't much believe in one that we have in DA:O.

Why are't there "low ground" mages? Why lay sister's can't do some simple healing magic to popularise their church so everyone would actually see that "magic exists to serve men"? Why most mages in the game, exept maybe Wynne, don't care about the Maker?
It's just that in game there are like two types of mages - one of them helps troops in the army, and the other are blood and apostate mages that are so abundant in the game it seems every time you fight someone there is a mage with them.
I think it would be appropriate for the chantry to have some middle class mages, that heal and mix potions and everything.

Magic just isn't that common when you look at the whole of the Thedas population.  If anyone could learn magic, or if even half of the population had the potential it wouldn't be seen as so dangerous and taboo to the common person.  In that case, yes it would make sense to train the chantry clergy in healing services to serve the public.  But as it stands mages are a small percentage of the population as a whole; most common people have never met a mage or seen magic done.  The reason the Warden character saw so many mages in DAO is that obviously mages have a unique set of talents that are valuble to soldiers and adventurers and the Warden is always fighting and adventuring in situations where mages would be present

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

just because you are a believer doesn't stop you from being hypocritical

Nice one, btw.

most common people have never met a mage or seen magic done

I will buy that, but only from the codex and setting perspective, 'cause game does't do good job to show you that. There are mages everywhere, lyrium is easely accessible, legendary artifacts can be just bought and peasants and bandits intimidate you wearing magister robes or not.



But this topic is about the Maker, think I've floater already to far from it, sorry.

[Erani]

The "Maker" exists, just not as defined by the Chantry. My Hawke hates narrow-mindness and self-righteousness!

[Esoj16]

 meant to edit this post but ended up quoting  just look below to my other post:P

Modifié par Link3521, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:01 .

[Beerfish]

Dave Gaider IS the maker, either him or Sandal.

[Eternal Phoenix]

Shepard Lives wrote...

Punch the Grand Cleric in the face. While screaming THIS IS FOR YOU GALILEO!

Galileo was Christian, he just didn't believe the whole Bible was literal truth but still believed in God and Christ. You should read up on him before assuming things.

Anyway, I made a topic about this before months ago. Hundreds replied and the conclusion was that The Maker will always remain as a debatable subject within DA's universe. Although who knows what Bioware will do?

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:00 .

[Esoj16]

trickybunny wrote...

DarthCaine wrote...

Riloux wrote...

I think in this game, he does. The Urn of Sacred Ashes cured the Arl, did it not?

Bring Oghren with you. He'll explain that's it's the lyrium in the mountains affecting the ashes

Holy crap I had no idea...well then to answer the  OP's question then...NO.<_< I knew there was  a reason why I made my Warden *stay silent* during the prayers instead of finishing it

And Harid...that was beautiful man...and sad becuase it's true

Oh ye of little faith, you forget that lyrium kills people, not cures them, not to mention that the legend speaks of the ashes way before they could come into contact with lyrium and it would be an incredible coincidence if lyrium gave the ashes the same effect that the legend speaks of, too much of a coincidence. Don't forget the guardian has been living there for centuries as have the spirits that give you riddles, they saw Andraste with their own eyes and can attest to the power the maker gave her.  Lyrium wouldn't make the guardian immortal, given how it's known to drive people crazy and/or kill them if there's too much exposure.  

Some people need to learn that correlation doesn't always equate causation, I'm not saying the existence of the maker (in the game) is assured, but I believe the maker and the story of Andraste is true, but we'll likely never find out the truth.

Modifié par Link3521, 21 janvier 2011 - 03:59 .

[DamnThoseDisplayNames]

He'll explain that's it's the lyrium in the mountains affecting the ashes

What about restless spirits and the Guardian? Could they be just trapped echoes and the last some kind of Justice Daemon summoned by Andraste's encantations, or they actually divine beings?

Lyrium can do much, but, eh.. it can't think puzzles for protagonist and give other characters answers they did't much think about themselves.

[Esoj16]

Elton John is dead wrote...

Shepard Lives wrote...

Punch the Grand Cleric in the face. While screaming THIS IS FOR YOU GALILEO!

Galileo was Christian, he just didn't believe the whole Bible was literal truth but still believed in God and Christ. You should read up on him before assuming things.

Anyway, I made a topic about this before months ago. Hundreds replied and the conclusion was that The Maker will always remain as a debatable subject within DA's universe. Although who knows what Bioware will do?

Not to mention that we owe many scientific discoveries to religion, who do you think funded scientific research for so many centuries? Mendel anyone? People nowadays focus on the errors of the church without remembering the good it has done for so many centuries.

[Naitaka]

The Guardian could be a possessed mage or a Spirit that crossed the Veil physically for all we know. Justice have already said that many spirit believe in the Maker, but that's as likely to be the influnece of humanity as it is to be proof that the Maker exist. It was likely that Andraste was a mage herself and she was executed by a empire run by mages. Who's to say the effect of the Ashes isn't a lingering effect of what the Archon did amplified by the Lyrium after hundreds of years sealed away on that mountain? Personally, I think there's no real proof either way, and I like it ambiguous anyway.

Modifié par Naitaka, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:06 .

[Eternal Phoenix]

The lyrium didn't explain the Guardian's all knowing powers I argued once and no one has explained how he knew of all your companion's deeds and history. Maybe the Urn was just lyrium enhanced but the Guardian supports that it wasn't.



Or maybe Sandal enchanted the urn and a spirit which became the Guardian. Maybe Sandal is the end boss for the DA series and responsible for all the evil in DA's world. He observed how The Warden killed the archdemon so he could see the weaknesses of the archdemon so he could build a better one...

[ScotGaymer]

Can I just please point out that The Maker is not God, and the Chantry is not the Catholic Church or Real World Organised religion?

Thus there is no reason to irrationally hate the Chantry and what it means -in game- for metagame reasons that have nothing to do with it?

The Chantry seems alright; being controlled by women definately seems to have given religion a gentler less gung-ho bent. If real world religions had been controlled by women I think we would have avoided divisive events like the Schism, the Reformation, and the Witch Hunts that irrevocably damaged the church.

So lets lay off the Chantry is the Catholic Church analogue here and lay off the irrational hatred that belongs more in the GameFAQs, or IGN forums; or in the YouTUBE comments section than on here, thank you!

Modifié par FitScotGaymer, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:08 .

[Esoj16]

Naitaka wrote...

The Guardian could be a possessed mage or a Spirit that crossed the Veil physically for all we know. Justice have already said that many spirit believe in the Maker, but that's as likely to be the influnece of humanity as it is to be proof that the Maker exist. It was likely that Andraste was a mage herself and she was executed by a empire run by mages. Who's too say the effect of the Ashes isn't a lingering effect of what the Archon did amplified by the Lyrium after hundreds of years sealed away on that mountain? Personally, I think there's no real proof either way, and I like it ambiguous anyway.

Now it just sounds like you're making excuses out of thin air with no proof, Andraste being a mage is possible, but spirits aren't likely to cross the veil without a host, specially good spirits, and all we know the archon did was burn her at the stake, I don't see how flames could give her ashes healing powers.