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New Mass Effect podcast


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#126
Babli

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didymos1120 wrote...
The main plots of the games aren't the work of one person.  I don't know why people think that's the case.  It's worked out in story meetings at the beginning of development, and the whole writing team is eventually involved:

But he is a lead writer. He is the one responsible for story. If he wouldnt like main plot of ME2 he could rewrite it, bring something more interesting. But no...we get what we get in ME 2.

I find lack of Drew Karpyshyn...disturbing. And I´m worried about ME 3 with Mac Walters being lead writer again, despite the criticism of ME2´s story. In podcast its obvous that he is more interested in his comics then ME 1.I wouldnt be surprised even if he didnt played ME1 and read everything about it on ME wiki. It would explain some really dumb stuff in Genesis comics.

#127
theriddlen

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Babyblue wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Quick on the draw with the antagonism there.



I apologise, it's just been incredibly frustrainting since ME2 for us Ash and Kaidan fans.


Both of them? 

#128
DaBigDragon

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Good podcast. I figured it would be way too early to say anything more about ME3. Most likely won't hear anything else until this year's E3.



What would have been another excellent question to ask Mac would be "is there any info you could share about any future ME2 DLC?"

#129
LPPrince

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Babli wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
The main plots of the games aren't the work of one person.  I don't know why people think that's the case.  It's worked out in story meetings at the beginning of development, and the whole writing team is eventually involved:

But he is a lead writer. He is the one responsible for story. If he wouldnt like main plot of ME2 he could rewrite it, bring something more interesting. But no...we get what we get in ME 2.

I find lack of Drew Karpyshyn...disturbing. And I´m worried about ME 3 with Mac Walters being lead writer again, despite the criticism of ME2´s story. In podcast its obvous that he is more interested in his comics then ME 1.I wouldnt be surprised even if he didnt played ME1 and read everything about it on ME wiki. It would explain some really dumb stuff in Genesis comics.


In an earlier podcast, I believe it was Mac who said that he'd forget quite a few things about Mass Effect and the universe. His saving grace is the wikia, where he heads to in case he needs to brush up.

I probably could've worded that better, but it was something like that.

#130
Babli

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LPPrince wrote...
In an earlier podcast, I believe it was Mac who said that he'd forget quite a few things about Mass Effect and the universe. His saving grace is the wikia, where he heads to in case he needs to brush up.

Is that the kind of person we want writing the plot of ME 3?

#131
Stanley Woo

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Let's tone down the Mac hate, please, or at least make it more constructive. it'd be much appreciated. Thank you.

#132
LiquidGrape

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axl99 wrote...

Hey Chris,

If we wanna be strictly technical, the interactive comic on the PS3 isn't a motion-comic. There is no animation involved in any of the illustrations on the panels, not even camera moves have been incorporated. Nothing's actually moving other than masks hiding the other panels.

Yes. I nitpick. But with all the other motion comics by the big two and other ambitious startups, some kinda tend to have this first impression expectation thing.


This post is relevant to my interests.

And on the same topic, could you please ditch Dark Horse and get people who can actually draw? Might make future endeavours more rewarding for all parties.
Except for Dark Horse, I guess.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:29 .


#133
axl99

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Off the top of my head I can think of a few people from BIoware Edmonton who could do great work with a Mass Effect comic [or any comic in general]:

- Mikko Kinnunen
- Matt Rhodes
- Ben Huen
- Nick Thornborrow
- Caspar Konefal.

Modifié par axl99, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:45 .


#134
Lvl20DM

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Babli wrote...

Is that the kind of person we want writing the plot of ME 3?


It's the only person that can write Mass Effect 3.

We are quoting the beginning of ME1, right?

#135
tj987654321

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Lvl20DM wrote...

Babli wrote...

Is that the kind of person we want writing the plot of ME 3?


It's the only person that can write Mass Effect 3.

We are quoting the beginning of ME1, right?


Don't f*** with Mac!

#136
Remus Artega

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Lvl20DM wrote...

Babli wrote...

Is that the kind of person we want writing the plot of ME 3?


It's the only person that can write Mass Effect 3.

We are quoting the beginning of ME1, right?

I think that person responsible for LotSB is up to the task...

#137
bjdbwea

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Let's tone down the Mac hate, please, or at least make it more constructive. it'd be much appreciated. Thank you.


I don't "hate" him, but I dislike much of what he did to the Mass Effect series. If he would participte in these forums and try to explain some of his work, maybe some people would understand it better. I'm sure that everyone would try to be constructive too.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:55 .


#138
LiquidGrape

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axl99 wrote...

Off the top of my head I can think of a few people from BIoware Edmonton who could do great work with a Mass Effect comic [or any comic in general]:

- Mikko Kinnunen
- Matt Rhodes
- Ben Huen
- Nick Thornborrow
- Caspar Konefal.


Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
and Yes.

#139
Mr. MannlyMan

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TBH I think the entire ME3 team should replay ME1 and ME2, and then take that experience with them when they create the final game in the series. Just 'cause I get the impression that nobody there really has a solid grasp on WHY they're seeing the complaints they're seeing from us fans. IMO I think it would bode well for ME3 if people like Mac Walters, Casey Hudson, the art department, etc. looked at their previous games from a gamer's perspective, so that they have a better idea of what they're aiming for in terms of atmosphere, story, etc...



Just a suggestion.

#140
james1976

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Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

TBH I think the entire ME3 team should replay ME1 and ME2, and then take that experience with them when they create the final game in the series. Just 'cause I get the impression that nobody there really has a solid grasp on WHY they're seeing the complaints they're seeing from us fans. IMO I think it would bode well for ME3 if people like Mac Walters, Casey Hudson, the art department, etc. looked at their previous games from a gamer's perspective, so that they have a better idea of what they're aiming for in terms of atmosphere, story, etc...

Just a suggestion.


I like it.   Given all the threads I've read and been a part of and playing through both games more than once I can say there is lessons to be learned from both games and hybrid of the two with everything learned applied would be golden.

#141
axl99

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Mr. MannlyMan wrote...

TBH I think the entire ME3 team should replay ME1 and ME2, and then take that experience with them when they create the final game in the series. Just 'cause I get the impression that nobody there really has a solid grasp on WHY they're seeing the complaints they're seeing from us fans. IMO I think it would bode well for ME3 if people like Mac Walters, Casey Hudson, the art department, etc. looked at their previous games from a gamer's perspective, so that they have a better idea of what they're aiming for in terms of atmosphere, story, etc...

Just a suggestion.


In the games business, everyone in the studio can have a console setup where they can playtest the latest build of the title they're working on as they're working on the next big milestone

So technically speaking, they have played their games, just from different angles and making sure everything works out and doesn't destroy their machines. Or ours by extension.

If anything, the ME devs are even more discerning of the quality of the game than most of us because they've been playing it over and OVER AND OVER for months at a time.

Modifié par axl99, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:10 .


#142
Pedro Costa

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Listened to the podcast, so... some concerns.

Positive things aren't fun talking about, after all; besides, I wouldn't be here if I didn't love you guys and your work! =P



Firstly, the Reapers:

Mac says they're "malevolent", then in Mass 2, they are collecting our genetic material into an "Ark" known as Reaper (if that isn't the case, I seriously have to question Harbinger's dialogue and the whole plot of Mass2).

If doing what they think is right is being malevolent, then why does he then say TIM has a gray morality when he does the *exact* same moral exercise as the malevolent machines bent on "ascending" humanity?

And they erradicate everything organic in the galaxy? Then how come that in 50,000 years there are spacefaring species? It'd be a miracle for single celled organisms to even exist!

Let alone that, that being the case, of ALL the times the Reapers killed every organic thing, they *always* forgot Earth. Are we suppose to really buy that? They even had a Relay in the Sol System!



And how is the comic great? Aweful artwork, skipped many decisions, almost didn't mention the Geth... It's a very fast, extremely summarized approach to Mass1, it may get the job done, *but* it isn't "great".



Talking about the comic, if Dark Horse is so infatuated with MassEffect and its characters, then why don't they make their scripts actually worthy of the setting/characters and improve the artwork?

Not only that, Mac pretty much admits that the stories he acutally wants to tell and portray are restricted by DarkHorse itself, meaning even less meaningful plots/depth and characters go into the comics... in other words, we're being left with the short end of the stick in exchange for aweful artwork and typical, shallow, western comic scripts.



And finally, how is a story placed in the First Contact War going to have a deep impact into Mass3/was conceived with Mass3 in mind? Please tell me it won't be "Mass Effect 3: Gary Sue sends his 2 billion credit mailman/girl to fetch Reaper milk"

I really like TIM, but this is Shepard's story, not the Illusive Man's.



All that said, thank you for the podcast! =)

#143
darknoon5

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Facepalm at the Mac hate.



Glad to see a podcast, just wish it answered more questions.

#144
XFemShepX

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On an off note, but kinda related in my weird twisted head:

Through a lot of my teens, I used to read comic books.  X-Men was my favorite throughout all of them.  I was a fanatic, bought every issue, couldn't wait for the next.  

Then there was X-Men, and then Amazing X-Men, Unlimited X-Men, then the Gen X X-men, then the break away mini-series, the Apocalypse series (I don't actually remember if those were all the names, but you get my point!:P).

Anyways, you know what happened?  One storyline wasn't contained to a single comic that I could enjoy every couple weeks anymore.  Now, in order to be kept in the story loop, I had to buy three, four, five comics a month.    So I stopped reading.  It wasn't really an expense thing as much as it was annoying to have to keep up with whatever comic came out when, yada yada.  It's not that I'm against sub-plots of anything, but it just seemed to me that Marvel was more interested in making money through so many different issues, instead of actually telling a story.  So I just stopped reading.

I'm not saying I won't buy ME3--of course I will.  I'll play it, and I'll probably love it.

But now this seed has been planted in me.  As much as I love DLC (Hells yes for VIRMIRE SURVIVOR DLC--hear me, Bioware?! )...until I actually bought all the wireless and xBox Live and all that, I was irritated with the idea of just having to go through all that for DLC.  So now there's all these add-ons that people who don't have xbox live won't be able to get, fine.  But then how do they enjoy the story..?  Well, guess we'll branch out into comics.  Fine.  And now we see things like the DA2 DLC for the Exiled Prince--totally done DLC....well, why not make it part of the game, if it's done?  If you need to link games, make expansions (Awakening was awesome, available in-store to anyone who wanted to buy it.  Fair.).  Are we interested in making an epic story, or in just telling small bits of it at a time, through different media, to gain as much money as possible?  I'm not against Bioware trying to make profits--just that this is kinda gettin' ridiculous.  Put out quality material, not "Witch Hunt" or "Pinnacle Station", or random "outfit change packs!". (**note: I know DA's made by different peoples, just talkin' Bioware in general)

I guess all that podcast talk about comics, and back-slapping kinda irritated me.  That was pretty cathartic. :D

EDIT:  And when people look back on the ME series as a whole a few years from now, and talk about how revolutionary it was, how will we tell people the story, or advise them to get it?  "Oh, ME one, two and three were awesome.  And then, to get how totally evil Cerberus is, there was this story Overlord...oh, and then Liara becomes the Shadow Broker in this story called "Lair of the Shadow Broker"...and there's this awesome new sniper rifle, that I had bought online....No, I mean I don't know if they still have that up and whatnot, but you really should at least get the three main ones."  I mean, c'mon.  How do you tell a whole story in bitty pieces? 

Modifié par XFemShepX, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:36 .


#145
JamieCOTC

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LiquidGrape wrote...

axl99 wrote...

Hey Chris,

If we wanna be strictly technical, the interactive comic on the PS3 isn't a motion-comic. There is no animation involved in any of the illustrations on the panels, not even camera moves have been incorporated. Nothing's actually moving other than masks hiding the other panels.

Yes. I nitpick. But with all the other motion comics by the big two and other ambitious startups, some kinda tend to have this first impression expectation thing.


This post is relevant to my interests.

And on the same topic, could you please ditch Dark Horse and get people who can actually draw? Might make future endeavours more rewarding for all parties.
Except for Dark Horse, I guess.



I suspect the art was made to be fairly generic in order not to alienate too many potential readers.  Over stylized art, no matter how good it is always has the potential to scare people away.  Hitting the middle ground is always the safest bet, though not always the one w/ the most integrity. I would have prefered a much more realistic slant on the art w/
characters actually looking like they do in the game, but there may have
been legal issues w/ that. I don't know. That said, the interactive comic was quite poor in many respects and I suspect the artist was rushed, as was the writer.  There’s no excuse for it otherwise.

#146
Mims

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Artwork is "outsorced" to Dark Horse for serveral reasons- but the biggest is probably the fact that bioware is a game company, not a publishing firm. Publishing companies typically like to hire their own artists, so they can manage the timing, quality, and use their own editing staff. [Although, you may certainly argue whether or not that was successful.]

Some of bioware's concept artists do do sequential art, but not all of them. They're also likely busy doing their work for EA/Bioware ontop of any freelance work that their contract allows. Since the Mass Effect comics started as spec work [at least, it seems to be implied that way], it wouldn't be feasible to use their own workforce on something that might flop. If they had been interested in doing it at all. Not to mention, you'd basically have an artist doing extra work ontop of what they were already hired for. Not all artists appreciate that, even if they're handed a nice check at the end of it. [And depending on your contract... you might not even get that.]

That said, and quality of artwork notwithstanding, the comics haven't flopped. It's very possible that we might get a "bioware" artist on board at some point... but I wouldn't fault bioware for using dark horse "staff" to manage the comic. Dark horse is a solid publishing company, regardless of what you might think of the art. If the comics continue to sell well, they will improve as they're moved up the food chain. I thought the coverwork by Massimo Carnivale was very nice.

I totally agree with what everyone is saying about the art and concerns about the story... but, I think we've got to at least try and be optimistic. There are much worse comics and art out there. Look at some other tie in comics.

#147
Estelindis

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Stanley Woo wrote...

Let's tone down the Mac hate, please, or at least make it more constructive. it'd be much appreciated. Thank you.

I certainly don't hate Mac - for the most part, I try not to hate anyone - but on the whole I do not like his comic-writing.  I hear a lot of enthusiasm for his comic in this podcast, which is great for him (I appreciate positivity), but I do not hear any awareness of the criticisms that fans have made of previous ME comics.  Isn't Mac interested to know what we'd like to see more of and what we don't want to see again?  Or is he just so confident that we'll buy anything to do with Mass Effect that any points we could make about previous comics don't matter to him?  

I mean, of course, as a writer Mac has a certain story he wants to write - and I expect he'll write that regardless.  A writer does have to stay true to a certain inner vision - to what they can offer creatively that no one else can.  But as fans of the Mass Effect universe, we can give some feedback on the methods he has used for dialogue and narrative in previous comics - we can tell him what we think worked and what didn't. 

I did not like the way Liara was written in Redemption.  I'm a fan of the character in general, but I felt that in the comic she was portrayed in a very shallow manner: as a stereotypical ass-kicking superbabe in spandex.  I didn't feel that her personality or approach to life from Mass Effect 1 really saw much light at all.  (Of course she was in different circumstances, and devastated after the death of Shepard: but surely those are grounds for deepening a character and showing further complexity, not to making the character more shallow?)  I found the dialogue cringeworthy more often than not, and felt very little in terms of real danger or drama.  Comics as an art form can be a medium for amazing things.  In this case, the use of the medium fell short.  (Just to balance things out a bit: I did like Feron and thought he was written comparatively well.)

I also did not like the PS3 comic, Genesis.  It's interesting that Mac talks about the choices that the comic gives you, mentioning *specifically* the impact of death-related choices.  I can only imagine he's talking about the rachni when he says that if you let such-and-such die then you won't have an ally later on (ME3?).  I mean, it seems to us so far that saving or killing Wrex makes no difference because he's simply replaced by his brother if dead - and Ashley and Kaidan's behaviour on Horizon was mostly identical, so I doubt he's referring to the implications of choosing one or the other of the Alliance marines.  Anyway, getting back to the comic in general, I was very disappointed by the portrayal of some characters, particularly Kaidan ("a good kid" who is years older than Shepard - really?), Liara (a blushing caricature of herself), and Tali (who was described in a very patronising manner).  It hurts me when Bioware goes to such lengths to make me adore those characters in ME1 and then seems to have little regard for portraying them consistently in the comic.  (Again, just to balance out my criticism here, one thing I thought the comic did very well was flow.  Considering how much was left out - two whole quest hubs in Therum and Feros, not to mention all side-quests - it could have come across as very choppy.  Indeed, I think some things should not have been left out - for instance, the geth got no mention at all.  But, taking this into account, each event flowed quite smoothly from one to the next.  I think this could still have been achieved if a few more crucial details had been included, though, and if the above-mentioned characters had been portrayed better.)

Until I get the sense that Mac is interested in upping his game, a few minutes of enthusiastic description of an upcoming comic simply isn't going to make me buy it.  I have no grounds for believing that Evolution is going to be any better than Redemption (won't compare it to the PS3 comic, because it's not like vs. like) because Mac doesn't say anything about trying to make it better.  Perhaps it will be, however, because - if I understand correctly - the Illusive Man is Mac's own character.  He can't write him inconsistently if he's always written him, right?  Anyway, that's my sole basis for hope.

____

On the topic of Ashley and Kaidan, I have been waiting mostly-patiently.  But, like many fans, I'm finding my patience starting to crack.  I'd already waited for their role in ME2 since ME1, and that was tiny and traumatic.  Fans of these characters (and, contrary to what some posters say, there are a lot of us) are now almost completely starved of content.  This is what makes us come across as desperate and, dare I say it, over-sensitive.  We know that, if Bioware intends to do something big with these characters, they're not going to tell us yet.  There simply aren't going to be any big DLC releases so soon to the PS3 release - and maybe Ashley and Kaidan won't even get their big return until ME3.  We understand this.  But it would be so much easier for us to bear the wait if we got even the slightest sense that our characters were being treated fairly compared to other characters in comparable roles/situations.  Every LI character but Ash/Kai got a mention from Kasumi.  Every LI character but Ash/Kai could be cited as Shepard's reason for fighting in LotSB (instead, their only mention is to be condemned by Liara - they only come up in a negative context).  The PS3 comic pushes Liara into the LI role, with Ash/Kai left in the background.  Every single one of these could have been handled differently.  If they had been, we wouldn't be so unhappy.  We would have taken our little morsels and been satisfied for another few months.  But the lack of level ground is so obvious that it makes us feel as if we have no grounds for hope that Bioware will do anything good with the characters that they made us love.  (Come on, Bioware.  You created these characters.  You showed us how awesome they are.  Why be surprised that they have lots of fans who eagerly await their next appearance?)  All we can do is keep waiting, fanning our increasingly tiny embers of optimism.  This is why we watch for any new Bioware announcement.  This is why we are so disappointed when we keep seeing nothing. 

Modifié par Estelindis, 21 janvier 2011 - 08:49 .


#148
yuncas

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Sooo...

I'll say the most insight I've gotten into the aspects of game creation come from the Dragon Age Devs. They regularly engage in dialogue with posters and offer answers in a straightforward manner, even if you don't like the answer.(i.e. no sugarcoating) They state in a civil and honest way the reasons for their decisions in game design, writing, etc.. 

Something in the line of how those Devs engage the fanbase I think' d be better than the silence or the self promotion that's seems to be the norm on the ME forums.

*Not meant to sound dikish  

#149
Anacronian Stryx

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I wanna know how it feels like being a Brannon Braga of a computer game?.

#150
Guest_Mash Mashington_*

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axl99 wrote...

Off the top of my head I can think of a few people from BIoware Edmonton who could do great work with a Mass Effect comic [or any comic in general]:

- Mikko Kinnunen
- Matt Rhodes
- Ben Huen
- Nick Thornborrow
- Caspar Konefal.


this is a very good point, i can not stress it enough