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[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

Discounting Awakening, where everything is incredibly powerful, Arcane Warrior is considered one of the most powerful specializations in the game - Combat Magic lets you auto-attack for massive damage (especially with buffs), but more importantly Shimmering Shield with the right gear to counteract its mana drain can let you walk around essentially invincible, while Blood Magic negates the penalty of all your sustainables except fatigue.

But what if Arcane Warrior didn't exist? Would it be possible to make an effective melee mage just using the existing system for equipping weapons and armor? I honestly don't know, but I'm sure going to try. I'll be using this post to track the progress of a character attempting to work in this way, though I'd be happy to hear critiques, suggestions, or experiences. If you want to run your own melee mage without the Arcane Warrior spec and chronicle his/her adventures, that'd be great. And some numbers for you that are what I'm shooting for:

Elayne Surana, Level 20 elven female Mage/Spirit Healer/Blood Mage

Stats:
Strength: 27 (10 base, 7 level, 4 Fade, 4 tomes, 2 belt), allows drakeskin leather and silverite weapons
Dexterity 34/32 (10 base, 12 level, 4 Fade, 4 armor, 2 weapon[set I only], 2 belt), allows dragonbone daggers
Willpower 22/28 (14 base, 2 racial, 4 Fade, 6 weapon [set II only], 2 belt)
Magic 66 (15 base, 43 level-up, 2 racial, 2 Fade, 2 specialization, 2 belt)
Cunning 18 (11 base, 5 Fade, 2 belt) allows Master Coercion, with no investment.
Constitution 26 (10 base, 2 Fade, 2 specialization, 2 belt, 10 ring)

Health: 241
Mana: 311/341, (131/161 with Haste + Rock Armor + Flaming Weapons + Arcane Shield active)
Attack: 78/77 (73/72 with Haste)
Defense: 80 (96 with Arcane Shield, 99 with Spell Wisp/Might shenanigans)
Spellpower: 61/67/93
Armor: 17.58 (29.83 with Rock Armor)
Fatigue 3.9% (28.9% with buffs, 33.9% with buffs + Blood Magic)

Gear:
Weapon Set I: Maric's Blade (silverite), The Rose's Thorn
Weapon Set II: Staff of the Magister Lord
Helm: none (could easily stick something here to bring her to 30-31 armor)
Gloves: Elementalist's Grasp
Torso: Battledress of the Provocateur
Boots: Magus War Boots
Amulet: Magister's Shield
Belt: Anduril's Blessing
Rings: Lifegiver and Blood Ring

That's a lot of math up there....

Progress so far:

Circle Tower: Not much to say here, plays like a standard mage this early in the game. Took Rock Armor and Flame Blast at Level 1, Flame Weapons at 2, and Fireball at 3. Also started slowly working on Strength, the starting tome for the CE let me get up to 14 while still having enough Magic for Fireball at Level 3. Goal is to hit 20 Strength in the Fade, allowing her to equip the Battledress. Held the Skill Point at Level 3 to pick up Improved Herbalism at 4.

Kokari Wilds: Still not much more to say. Hit 16 strength at Level 4, so I start putting points into dexterity and pick up Heal to help keep the party alive when they step into my Fireball radius (mostly Alistair). I also pick up Improved Herbalism with that banked Skill point. Before the joining, I nick Daveth's armor and gloves for Elayne, bringing her armor up to 12 - half again Alistair's. Poor boy. Level 5 after the joining brings her up to 14 Dexterity, and I pick Arcane Shield and use the extra story Talent point to start the Heroic chain.

Tower of Ishal: Here I start trying to use Elayne in Melee...to fairly mediocre results. While her accuracy and damage isn't horrible, especially with Heroic Offense and Flaming Weapons, maintaining all three of her buffs cuts her down to less than a third of her mana, and she's still too frail to really play the front line well. So right now she plays a little more like the "flexible" Arcane Warrior - throws out spells and staff bolts until the enemy closes into melee, then tosses out a cone before activating Flaming Weapons and starting to flail away with her daggers. That works out pretty nicely, as long as all her spells at range aren't resisted. Level 6 is attained on the third floor, and the points are thrown into Dexterity again. Skill point is banked for Expert Herbalism at Level 7, and the Talent point is spent on Heroic Aura, bringing her ever-closer to Haste. Ogre battle ends up being a game of rocket tag, as Elayne spends her time running around until the cooldown for Fireball is up, and then downs a Lesser Health Poultice to keep from dying. Last Fireball kills the Ogre just before a Ram attack would have killed Elayne, so I consider myself lucky.

Modifié par DragonOfWhiteThunder, 23 janvier 2011 - 07:16 .

[ussnorway]

What you are talking about here is a Shapeshifter in it's mage form.

Difficulty level... lack of magic; 'Spell Wisp' = hard, 'Spell Might' = insane & normal/ easy = nothing.



Gear; the staff and Duncan's sword is ok but drop the rose thorn for a shield. yes I know the stats are nice but the fact is without any DW talents you can't hit the side of a dragon! The 'Death Hex' (critical hits) and any spell that stuns them is a very good investment.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

I kinda feel that the shield is just unnecessary fatigue, the defense bonus is pretty negligible. I also can't see that there's any reduction to attack for wielding two weapons while looking into the combat mechanics on the wiki, so I'll have equal trouble hitting with any weapon - making the faster attack speed of two weapons probably my best choice.



Will definitely look into Death Hex, however. The other hexes are pretty awesome and having melee weapons lets me make the most of Death Hex and the threat it generates.

[Elhanan]

Depends on the shield. Maric's sword and shield combo offers sweet Stamina Regen bonus on top of Cailan's armor. fade wall also offers Stamina Regen; a nice perk for a caster.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

I've played with the Cailan's Arms combo before, and that's definitely my go-to choice for an Arcane Warrior, but 38 strength to wield them in dragonbone form seems like a pretty hefty investment for Elayne here. Right now, I only have 18 level-up points going to meeting gear requirements, but even if I were to drop all the points in dexterity to get strength, and include the belt bonus from Anduril's Blessing since I won't upgrade until the endgame, that's 22 level-up points going into strength and I'd really rather not have to make that kind of investment.



I'm sure if I did, however, it'd be completely worth it. +5 combat stamina regen is really, really hard to pass up. Maybe another build where Cailan's Arms is the goal.

[Ser Kory]

This seems like a good idea. Of course blood mage would be required, but I wonder what it would be like if you were also a shapeshifter? Hmm.. maybe I'll try that

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

Thanks, I actually did this to see if it was plausible without any improvements DA2 might make to mage melee combat.



I think Shapeshifter would be pretty redundant in a build like this, since both Shapeshifter and the build choices here are meant to improve survivability and effectiveness in melee.

[Elhanan]

DragonOfWhiteThunder wrote...

I've played with the Cailan's Arms combo before, and that's definitely my go-to choice for an Arcane Warrior, but 38 strength to wield them in dragonbone form seems like a pretty hefty investment for Elayne here. Right now, I only have 18 level-up points going to meeting gear requirements, but even if I were to drop all the points in dexterity to get strength, and include the belt bonus from Anduril's Blessing since I won't upgrade until the endgame, that's 22 level-up points going into strength and I'd really rather not have to make that kind of investment.

I'm sure if I did, however, it'd be completely worth it. +5 combat stamina regen is really, really hard to pass up. Maybe another build where Cailan's Arms is the goal.

What of Maric's blade/  Rose's Thorn combo then? Not the huge bonus as the shield, but will have lesser STR prereq.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

It does still require 31 strength, which is 9 more points than I've got...

What am I saying? 1.40 points of base damage is negligible, and while 5 extra points of strength pushes me over what I want to invest in equipment, it's enough to wield Silverite with the belt. And the stamina regen between Maric's Blade and Battledress of the Provocateur is almost enough to completely offset the drain of Haste, if my math is right. That's certainly worth 1 rune slot and 5 level-up points...especially since the CE tome and the Tome of the Mortal Vessel will cover 4 of those. Thanks, will use, and edit build accordingly.

Modifié par DragonOfWhiteThunder, 23 janvier 2011 - 07:07 .

[ussnorway]

The extra STR will also help you with spell interrupt from damage.

[Omnius Evermind]

DragonOfWhiteThunder wrote...

Discounting Awakening, where everything is incredibly powerful, Arcane Warrior is considered one of the most powerful specializations in the game - Combat Magic lets you auto-attack for massive damage (especially with buffs), but more importantly Shimmering Shield with the right gear to counteract its mana drain can let you walk around essentially invincible, while Blood Magic negates the penalty of all your sustainables except fatigue..

I recently read that the sustainables still use mana regardless of whether BM is turned on or off. (My own observations are showing this as well) Blood magic uses your health to cast activated spells, but the "upkeep" portion of sustains still comes out of your mana pool.

Also, AW's are not "essentially invincible". You can still take plenty of damage with not only Shimmering, but all the other defensive sustains on + Massive armor and shield. I don';t know why this myth keeps getting repeated other than people simply regurgitating what they've heard others say

[Funkyflapjacks]

Omnius Evermind wrote...

DragonOfWhiteThunder wrote...

Discounting Awakening, where everything is incredibly powerful, Arcane Warrior is considered one of the most powerful specializations in the game - Combat Magic lets you auto-attack for massive damage (especially with buffs), but more importantly Shimmering Shield with the right gear to counteract its mana drain can let you walk around essentially invincible, while Blood Magic negates the penalty of all your sustainables except fatigue..

I recently read that the sustainables still use mana regardless of whether BM is turned on or off. (My own observations are showing this as well) Blood magic uses your health to cast activated spells, but the "upkeep" portion of sustains still comes out of your mana pool.

Also, AW's are not "essentially invincible". You can still take plenty of damage with not only Shimmering, but all the other defensive sustains on + Massive armor and shield. I don';t know why this myth keeps getting repeated other than people simply regurgitating what they've heard others say

i already answered you on the other thread but i wanna emphasize to the other forum readers: yes, you are invincible with all those buffs

@ OP: cool idea, but ill stick with my AW tyvm :-P

[Last Darkness]

ussnorway wrote...

What you are talking about here is a Shapeshifter in it's mage form.
Difficulty level... lack of magic; 'Spell Wisp' = hard, 'Spell Might' = insane & normal/ easy = nothing.

Gear; the staff and Duncan's sword is ok but drop the rose thorn for a shield. yes I know the stats are nice but the fact is without any DW talents you can't hit the side of a dragon! The 'Death Hex' (critical hits) and any spell that stuns them is a very good investment.

Theres a effective Shapeshifter Mage Build where you put all your points into Str, Equip better armors and better weapons and go into Bear form.  The Arcane Warrior is just stupid to make a pure melee class. Go be a Warrior or some types of Rogues instead. You will be happier.

My current "Primer for DA 2 game" im playing has me as a AW with a Staff and Heavy Armor. Im playing the Caster version of AW/Blood Mage. Working wonderfuly, my build is 2 Magic/1 Con per level. Only mod im using to enhance it though is the one that removes the negative healing to self from Blood Magic on Drain Life.

If your set on this though.......go grab a Mod that adds weapon styles to mages and makes Combat magic add to your Attack/Accuracy score.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

I'm not using the Arcane Warrior specialization. That's the whole point of this experiment. I'm trying to see if a melee/magic hybrid is viable without it. Shapeshifter locks me out of spells, which is against the spirit of the hybrid.

[Callidus Thorn]

Couple of questions:



1) Do you have stone prisoner dlc? If so you really should consider helm of honnleath, +2 across the board to attributes and a 3 point bonus to armour, hard to argue with.



2) Why use haste? Increased movement and attack speed is nice, but a -5 penalty to attack seems counter-intuitive. Go to all that effort to increase your attack, then lower it with a spell that also drains your mana, affecting both melee and casting ability.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

1) Yes, I do, and good point. I'll run Honnleath after I get through the Fade.



2) Is the -5 penalty to attack really that massive, given I have less than 80 attack to begin with? I'm not really pouring investment into raising attack, I'm just meeting minimums for gear. As to the mana drain, it's mostly offset by the Battledress and Maric's blade.

[Callidus Thorn]

Well you did say you were trying to make an effective melee mage, so I figured attack would be important. One other question though: Why use Maric's blade instead of Duncan's sword, which can do the same damage and has better stamina regeneration? Just curious.



Also if you can find the mana and have enough available talents you should consider Miasma. I found it almost disproportionately useful playing an AW/BM.

[Last Darkness]

DragonOfWhiteThunder wrote...

I'm not using the Arcane Warrior specialization. That's the whole point of this experiment. I'm trying to see if a melee/magic hybrid is viable without it. Shapeshifter locks me out of spells, which is against the spirit of the hybrid.

Then your a Mage with 42 Strength and the rest in magic?
ROFLMAO

While it is playable, and proof of concept. Its rather pointless as every single other build is probably better then you. Hell a bad shapeshifter is probably better then you. You would probably be better off playing a Templar/Spirit warrior who boosts his Spirit damage abilities along with using the power of blood aoe. Hmmm not a bad idea if done as a Champion/Templar/Spirit Warrior with Two handed Weapons. Lots of Aoes.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

@ Callidus: Good point on Duncan's Sword vs. Marric's Blade, I really need to do more research on gear. Any other really good stamina regen gear I'm missing? And I should be able to afford Miasma mana-wise, it's just finding the talent room for it I'm unsure of. RE: Haste, I figure the extra attacks offset the minor attack penalty.



@ Last Darkness: No, I'm a mage with 7 levelup points in Strength, 12 in Dexterity, and the rest in magic. I don't need Dragonbone massive armor, so why on Thedas would I pour so much into Strength?

I understand that from a min-max point of view, a melee mage is a bad idea. But really, this is just a check to see if it works before DA2 comes out.

[Last Darkness]

DragonOfWhiteThunder wrote...

@ Callidus: Good point on Duncan's Sword vs. Marric's Blade, I really need to do more research on gear. Any other really good stamina regen gear I'm missing? And I should be able to afford Miasma mana-wise, it's just finding the talent room for it I'm unsure of. RE: Haste, I figure the extra attacks offset the minor attack penalty.

@ Last Darkness: No, I'm a mage with 7 levelup points in Strength, 12 in Dexterity, and the rest in magic. I don't need Dragonbone massive armor, so why on Thedas would I pour so much into Strength?
I understand that from a min-max point of view, a melee mage is a bad idea. But really, this is just a check to see if it works before DA2 comes out.

Have you considered factoring in Battlemage/Keeper into the equation?  You could create a mighty area of death around you while forcing your foes to come melee you.

[Callidus Thorn]

Well if I were building this type of mage, I'd be using a sword and shield. That would mean greater survivability, and either fade wall, duncan's shield, grey warden tower shield or dead coat of arms, all of which carry bonuses to mana regeneration, in addition to other bonuses. Dead coat of arms is the easiest of them to get. I would also be looking to make every attack count, more attacks and greater attack speed don't mean much if you're only hitting 2 out of 3 attacks.



Questions: are you soloing the game? What difficulty are you playing on?

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

@ Last Darkness: If I get her through Awakening, then yes, I'd definitely be considering Battlemage and/or Keeper (love the respec tomes). Right now I'm not sure I want to go through Awakening with her though.

@ Callidus Thorn: If I were to use Sword and Shield, then I'd want to use Cailan's Arms. 6.5 mana regeneration beats any other set in the game, and allows me to run multiple mana draining sustains. All of the shields you mentioned, except for Dead Coat of Arms, however, require 38 Strength. I might be able to swing the 30 required for Dead Coat of Arms, since the Helm pushes me to 29 Strength, but the shield only provides 3 defense (and I guess 1 con) to improve Elayne's survivability. The Rose's Thorn that I'd be giving up provides an effective +2 Attack/Defense bonus through the Dexterity buff, as well as some combat health regen. So by swapping to the Dead Coat of Arms, I give up a lot of attack speed (for using sword & board over sword & dagger) the health regen, and some combat bonuses, for a few hitpoints, 1 point of defense, and a not-insignificant amount of mana regen. I'm not sure the trade there is worth it.

Regarding attack speed versus attack penalty: As far as I've seen, I'll miss a good number of attacks whether I have Haste running or not. Since the attack penalty is very minor, having more attempts to hit means I will stick more attacks than running without.

To answer your questions, I'm playing Nightmare with a full party.

Modifié par DragonOfWhiteThunder, 10 février 2011 - 10:23 .

[Callidus Thorn]

Well if I were to create this sort of character, I'd get his strength that high, so that I could use cailan's arms and wade's superior dragonscale armour. Equipping the helm of honnleath and andruil's blessing would mean I'd need to get it to 34, which would mean dropping a few points from dexterity and magic.



I'm tempted to attempt this type of character now I've thought about it.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

By all means, and I'd love to see how the build works out, feel free to make a post here to track them!



I'd recommend not boosting Dexterity at all in that case, since Strength has the same effect on attack and you'll be more concerned with damage mitigation through armor than dodging.

[USArmyParatrooper]

I think it's an interesting and probably fun project. I don't think others who are criticising the idea get where you're coming from. I don't think you're going to end up with an ubber powerhouse character, but certainly one that's playable and fun.



I think the challenge you will face is being a weaker warrior than true warriors and a weaker Mage than dedicated mages. There's really no way around this. Still, the versatility would add a fun dynamic to the game.



I would definately go Shapeshifter all the way. With the rout you want to go THAT could actually end up very strong.