434 réponses à ce sujet

[bjdbwea]

JE at least still had a great and well presented story and lively characters who cared about the events of the story and about each other. The gameplay though was indeed quite dumbed down. But then BioWare produced ME 1, and I thought that they had finally found some balance between action on the one hand and RPG elements, depth and great story telling on the other hand. Just to take a huge step back again with ME 2. But who knows, maybe ME 3 will be a step in the right direction again.

[Terror_K]

Nohvarr wrote...

The reason I use 'Elitist is beacuse your actions lead me to believe that you feel other people have no right to play on your swingset.

It's more the fact that I don't want them on my swingset because they already have an entire playground to use at their disposal. Why do they need my swingset in the first place? It's all I have, and they want to take it from me.

It's not that I don't think they should play the game, it's that I resent that the game is seemingly being made more for them than it is for me. I am sick to death of becoming a fan of something and investing time, money and interest in it and then somebody coming along and turning it into what I don't like because that's what "today's target demographic" wants. I don't mind lots of people playing Mass Effect at all, I just don't like it the idea of it being retooled to bring in an audience who will end up drowning out the old fans and turning it into something I don't like any more. Especially when they already have so much to entertain them.

Truth be told you were actually the first one to attack other people instead of their arguments by seperating them into fans and players. You immediatly placed everyone you did not consider a fan on a lower level, and thus enabled yourself to safely ignore their views, concerns and wants.

That's why I called your actions elitist.

I'm always of the belief that with everything it's the fans who should be catered to first and foremost. Fans became fans for a reason, and when you start turning your back of them and alienating them by changing things so that it takes away the very things they liked about it and adds things they don't like about it, that's a bad move, IMO.

BioWare created and crafted a great, rich universe for the Mass Effect games. Why should those who don't really appreciate it and just see it as another game amongst many be the ones more catered to than those who truly appreciate it and love it? Most players of Mass Effect 2 probably aren't fans, they're just common gamers, and Mass Effect will be gone and forgotten by them soon after they've done with ME3.

I'm not saying that there aren't true Mass Effect fans outside of the forums, I'm just saying that there are those who are simply players and not fans beyond that. I play lots of games myself, but I'd only call myself a "fan" of very few, and Mass Effect is very unique to me because I got into it on a level that went beyond it being a game series and really connected with the universe. But now it seems BioWare are trying to push me away and alienate me with Mass Effect 2 thanks to their changes and mainstreamlining.

Look at Dragon Age for instance. Most of the fans on the forums finished the game, usually more than once. Then BioWare reveal some statistics that showed that most people didn't even finish the game once, so now with the sequel we're getting a game that's about one third the size of the original. How exactly is that tailoring a game to your fans as opposed to the mainstream masses?

[bjdbwea]

Well said.

[SithLordExarKun]

The thing is, why should bioware listen to some of your needs? Bioware isn't making the game for you specifically, they are workers as well, they do the job because it pays and they need to get pay.



Do you guys seriously think bioware is making these great games just to please you? Not saying they don't have the intention but they need to survive too.

[bjdbwea]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Do you guys seriously think bioware is making these great games just to please you? Not saying they don't have the intention but they need to survive too.

They always had to and they did, for many years during which they produced great RPGs for the RPG fans. And Bethesda proves that good RPGs can still sell very well, in fact better than ME 2 did.

[habitat 67]

[quote]Terror_K wrote...
It's more the fact that I don't want them on my swingset because they already have an entire playground to use at their disposal. Why do they need my swingset in the first place? It's all I have, and they want to take it from me.

It's not that I don't think they should play the game, it's that I resent that the game is seemingly being made more for them than it is for me. I am sick to death of becoming a fan of something and investing time, money and interest in it and then somebody coming along and turning it into what I don't like because that's what "today's target demographic" wants. I don't mind lots of people playing Mass Effect at all, I just don't like it the idea of it being retooled to bring in an audience who will end up drowning out the old fans and turning it into something I don't like any more. Especially when they already have so much to entertain them.
[quote]

Uh, again you are covering your own wants and desires over every single "old school" Bioware fan, assuming they feel the same way.

Guess what? In this magical flotilla of the oldest of the "old school" fans, the people unhappy with Bioware's direction are still a small small minority.

Modifié par habitat 67, 26 janvier 2011 - 06:20 .

[SithLordExarKun]

bjdbwea wrote...

They always had to and they did, for many years during which they produced great RPGs for the RPG fans. And Bethesda proves that good RPGs can still sell very well, in fact better than ME 2 did.

So they made those games for free just to please you? Sorry kid but welcome to the real world, developers don't make games for free just to please people like you, they need to make profit and sure, they can please you in the process but they still do it because its their profession and they need to survive.

Oh yes, bethesdas game indeed outsold ME2, but don't forgot that it vastly outsold the so called "holy grail' of video gaming aka ME1 by a vast margin. Funny how you  claim ME1 is so "amazing" and "revolutionary" but didn't crack as much sales as other great RPG's.

Heck, even DAO outsold both ME1 and ME2.

[Mecha Tengu]

because they're busy



because if they say anything it will be misunderstood, manipulated, and used against them

[habitat 67]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

because they're busy

because if they say anything it will be misunderstood, manipulated, and used against them

Oh yeah! The topic.

[Mecha Tengu]

habitat 67 wrote...

Mecha Tengu wrote...

because they're busy

because if they say anything it will be misunderstood, manipulated, and used against them

Oh yeah! The topic.

I have massive TL:DR impulses and trigger happy "enter" button reflexes

Modifié par Mecha Tengu, 26 janvier 2011 - 06:26 .

[habitat 67]

(Deleted post for being off topic )

Modifié par habitat 67, 26 janvier 2011 - 08:49 .

[Terror_K]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Oh yes, bethesdas game indeed outsold ME2, but don't forgot that it vastly outsold the so called "holy grail' of video gaming aka ME1 by a vast margin. Funny how you  claim ME1 is so "amazing" and "revolutionary" but didn't crack as much sales as other great RPG's.

Heck, even DAO outsold both ME1 and ME2.

Which just proves that you don't need to dumb-down, oversimplify and/or mainstreamline your games in order to make a profit. BioWare are just choosing to do it.

That's one of the factors that weirded me out about DA2: the original game was more successful than Mass Effect, and yet BioWare are trying to make it more like Mass Effect and less like Dragon Age: Origins?

Modifié par Terror_K, 26 janvier 2011 - 09:39 .

[WidowMaker9394]

A lot of people are incredibly rude and uncivilized here and took questionable design choices in ME2 as a personal insult and made sure the devs knew that through insults and uneducated claims.

Terror_K wrote...


Which just proves that you don't need to dumb-down, oversimplify and/or mainstreamline your games in order to make a profit. BioWare are just choosing to do it.

That's one of the factors that weirded me out about DA2: the original game was more successful than Mass Effect, and yet BioWare are trying to make it more like Mass Effect and less like Dragon Age: Origins? [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png[/smilie]

They're making the game the way they want to make it.

Modifié par WidowMaker9394, 26 janvier 2011 - 09:44 .

[Terror_K]

WidowMaker9394 wrote...

A lot of people are incredibly rude and uncivilized here and took questionable design choices in ME2 as a personal insult and made sure the devs knew that through insults and uneducated claims.

It's a bit hard not to feel insulted as a player when half of the changes feel like BioWare have jammed a bib on me, squeezed me into a high chair and started going, "Here comes the RPG elements! Zoooooom!" with a spoon into my mouth, while most of the other half has them ripping the controller off me and saying, "You don't want to make the choices yourself, it'll only bore you and you'd screw up! Here, let me do that for you!"

[Ahriman]

I don't think that devs post here so rarely because this forum is full of hate. Actually people always glad to see them (except some... militants). Perhaps they just don't like to discuss their work with people who aren't specialists in that.

Terror_K wrote...

Which just proves that you don't need to dumb-down, oversimplify and/or mainstreamline your games in order to make a profit. BioWare are just choosing to do it.

That's one of the factors that weirded me out about DA2: the original game was more successful than Mass Effect, and yet BioWare are trying to make it more like Mass Effect and less like Dragon Age: Origins?

Well they've catched traditional rpg audince with DAO and perhaps now they want to keep old audience and catch some casuals with DA2. I've read DA2 subforum and most of people are pleased with those changes, so DA2 should have better sales. In theory.

[habitat 67]

What's this about you being in a highchair?

[Terror_K]

Wizz wrote...

Well they've catched traditional rpg audince with DAO and perhaps now they want to keep old audience and catch some casuals with DA2. I've read DA2 subforum and most of people are pleased with those changes, so DA2 should have better sales. In theory.

That makes it sound like BioWare are doing a bait-and-switch by deliberately going, "Let's sucker in the old-school RPG fans with the first game by making it something they'll love, and once they're hooked we'll change it all up on them for the next game which'll be all moderized and mainstreamed!"

That idea doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in BioWare you realise... <_<

[Ahriman]

Terror_K wrote...

That makes it sound like BioWare are doing a bait-and-switch by deliberately going, "Let's sucker in the old-school RPG fans with the first game by making it something they'll love, and once they're hooked we'll change it all up on them for the next game which'll be all moderized and mainstreamed!"

That idea doesn't exactly fill me with confidence in BioWare you realise... <_<

I'm not so optimistic about DA2 as 90% of people but still I think we cannot judge how mainstream the game is until it's release. All those happy 'previews' and advertisment look suspicious but it's purpose is get attention of those people who didn't to play DAO. So real game may be different. I'm sure that Bioware doesn't think that traditional rpg is dead and people are interested only in boobs and bisexual elfs.

[habitat 67]

Terror_K wrote...
That makes it sound like BioWare are doing a bait-and-switch by deliberately going, "Let's sucker in the old-school RPG fans with the first game by making it something they'll love, and once they're hooked we'll change it all up on them for the next game which'll be all moderized and mainstreamed!"

Sweetie Pie, nobody cried more than me when Adventure Games went the way of the dodo but guess what? Life moved forward and I eventually learned to like other styles of gameplay. Speaking of which, thats what Mass Effect 2 did for me, I started on easy and learned how to play a third person shooter.

Now, I love games with shooter elements, so much so that I picked up Borderlands and it was a blast.  Then when Fallout: New Vegas came out, I embraced the sniper rifle and never once put it down (except for the Ripper, but just for fun).

From what I gather, Bioware's been attempting to meld game genres for a while now and it works supremely well with the overall cinematic feel they've also been striving for. All companies work to over time move forward with their product design, whether it be car designs, shoes or games.  A game that was "dumbed down"  in a manner that negatively affected gameplay to me was Fable 3 but in all honesty, Bioware's changes were fluid and enhanced the overall game experience.

A number of people I know, some friends and some family (many have been playing RPGs since before they were in color) agree that Mass Effect 2 is a really great game.

Modifié par habitat 67, 26 janvier 2011 - 10:49 .

[SithLordExarKun]

Which just proves that you don't need to dumb-down, oversimplify and/or mainstreamline your games in order to make a profit. BioWare are just choosing to do it.

True but ME1's mechanics were god awful,  Me1, despite its so called "revolutionary blend of RPG and shooter" sold much less than  RPG's(DAO,witcher etc etc).

 
That's one of the factors that weirded me out about DA2: the original game was more successful than Mass Effect, and yet BioWare are trying to make it more like Mass Effect and less like Dragon Age: Origins?

Not really, if you read the DA2 forums alot of people are happy with the changes(albeit a few small changes werent too well received).

[Dominus]

and once they're hooked we'll change it all up on them for the next game which'll be all moderized and mainstreamed!

Mass Effect 4: Modern Love and Warfare.

I'm not so optimistic about DA2 as 90% of people but still I think we cannot judge how mainstream the game is until it's release. All those happy 'previews' and advertisment look suspicious but it's purpose is get attention of those people who didn't to play DAO. So real game may be different. I'm sure that Bioware doesn't think that traditional rpg is dead and people are interested only in boobs and bisexual elfs.

I'm also still a little reluctant and withholding on the final result of Dragon Age 2. I know they're working around the clock to make it the best it can be, but over the last 10 years, I've become a very picky gamer and will wait to see how it turns out.

nobody cried more than me when Adventure Games went the way of the dodo

I take it you mean the point-and-click types i.e. King's Quest and Myst? To a certain extent, they still exist, but it's very rare in terms of retail releases. In terms of mechanics, you could arguably say Heavy Rain is in the same vein of King's Quest, sans the inventory systems and whatnot. Most of adventure games seem to exist now only in the forms of internet games and perhaps DLC.

[Nohvarr]

Terror_K wrote...



It's more the fact that I don't want them on my swingset because they already have an entire playground to use at their disposal. Why do they need my swingset in the first place? It's all I have, and they want to take it from me.

The problem is, It's not your swingset, it's Biowares and they are allowed to invite whoever they want to play. You don't have to join in if you don't like the company, but the fact that you've played on their swingset before doesn't grant you any special rights to it now.

[habitat 67]

DominusVita wrote...
I take it you mean the point-and-click types i.e. King's Quest and Myst? To a certain extent, they still exist, but it's very rare in terms of retail releases. In terms of mechanics, you could arguably say Heavy Rain is in the same vein of King's Quest, sans the inventory systems and whatnot. Most of adventure games seem to exist now only in the forms of internet games and perhaps DLC.

Those are the ones, and I get whatever I can when and if it's decent and available.  Adventure Game Studio has a number of entertaining "non commercial" games to choose from. I think the same will undoubtedlty happen with "hardcore" RPGs. Of course and then there are still people playing Neverwinter nights and D&D (the original multiplayer).

[Dominus]

There are certain developers, like Telltale games, who are still trying to keep the genre alive. They recently announced doing a very ambitious fact - they're making a jurassic game park which is going to blend the adventure-based work they do now, and more high-paced intense moments(You know...with the dinosaurs?). More genre blending. Yummy? Their recent work on the Back-To-The-Future series has been pretty well recieved thus far as well.



...or is this going off topic? Can we bring the reputation of the Mass Effect forums to something better? Yep. But we need to make sure to stay away from feeding the trolls/whiners that will inevitably come onto the website. What we need is a banner to use on threads, a non-violent disclaimer saying "This thread will lead to certain destruction make your time."



-Every time a troll posts a nasty thread, a squadmate dies. Please, Think of the squadmates.-

[Terror_K]

I'm just sick of seeing the amount of swings I can truly have fun on disappearing more and more as time goes on, and that the already overcrowded playground is just getting bigger. BioWare used to at least understand, but it doesn't seem they do any more. I'd like to be wrong, but when it comes to ME3 I guess I'll have to see. As far as Dragon Age 2 goes, from where I'm sitting it just looks like Mass Effect 2 all over again: more simplification and the reduction of choice and depth in favour of more simple action. Most of my issues with it would be gone if it were a spin-off series, but it's supposed to be Dragon Age 2, yet is a third the size with seemingly half as many options, customisation and choices, and shoehorns you into playing a pre-determined voiced character who can only be human rather than really letting you truly roleplay.

bjdbwea wrote...

JE at least still had a great and well presented story and lively characters who cared about the events of the story and about each other. The gameplay though was indeed quite dumbed down. But then BioWare produced ME 1, and I thought that they had finally found some balance between action on the one hand and RPG elements, depth and great story telling on the other hand. Just to take a huge step back again with ME 2. But who knows, maybe ME 3 will be a step in the right direction again.

See, Jade Empire didn't bother me because while it wasn't as deep or rich RPG-wise, it never tried to be. Jade Empire clearly set out to be what it was from the start, and it was good at that. My issues with the likes of Mass Effect 2 and Dragon Age 2 is that the original game started out as something else and then BioWare decided to change things up too much. It's not so much that they're bad games, because they're not (or probably not in the case of DA2), it's that they're bad sequels because they're just too different from the original games, IMO.

Modifié par Terror_K, 26 janvier 2011 - 12:00 .