404 réponses à ce sujet

[Vearsin]

Cool stuff

[TheMadCat]

In Exile wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...
Not a whole lot of difference there though, ultimately it's still scripted events that never actually furthers party members relationships with each other.

What do you mean?

I don't believe I can explain it any clearer. It's scripted (Going to happen no matter what) just like the party banter. It triggered in the same places every time, all that mattered was who were the companions in the group that initiated dialogue. The second part was meant to state it did nothing to actually foster any real relationships between the NPC's, nor does it seem like it will here. They'll have their predefined opinions (If even that) and that's it. Essentially I'm saying the only fluid relationship is those of the players character, NPC's relationships with other NPC's is static.

Just saying ultimately there is little difference between what the party banter in Origins accomplished and what the cutscenes, based on the comments in the article, will accomplish. It's the same thing witha different coat of paint.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:04 .

[HTTP 404]

PrinceOfFallout13 wrote...

so our LI will talk about hawkes relationship wth other members as well? if so cool

more likely your LI will cheat on you and they keep a secret from Hawke

[HTTP 404]

TheMadCat wrote...

In Exile wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...
Not a whole lot of difference there though, ultimately it's still scripted events that never actually furthers party members relationships with each other.

What do you mean?

I don't believe I can explain it any clearer. It's scripted (Going to happen no matter what) just like the party banter. It triggered in the same places every time, all that mattered was who were the companions in the group that initiated dialogue. The second part was meant to state it did nothing to actually foster any real relationships between the NPC's, nor does it seem like it will here. They'll have their predefined opinions (If even that) and that's it. Essentially I'm saying the only fluid relationship is those of the players character, NPC's relationships with other NPC's is static.

Just saying ultimately there is little difference between what the party banter in Origins accomplished and what the cutscenes, based on the comments in the article, will accomplish. It's the same thing witha different coat of paint.

I like the new coat of paint then...

Modifié par HTTP 404, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:15 .

[TheMadCat]

HTTP 404 wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

In Exile wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...
Not a whole lot of difference there though, ultimately it's still scripted events that never actually furthers party members relationships with each other.

What do you mean?

I don't believe I can explain it any clearer. It's scripted (Going to happen no matter what) just like the party banter. It triggered in the same places every time, all that mattered was who were the companions in the group that initiated dialogue. The second part was meant to state it did nothing to actually foster any real relationships between the NPC's, nor does it seem like it will here. They'll have their predefined opinions (If even that) and that's it. Essentially I'm saying the only fluid relationship is those of the players character, NPC's relationships with other NPC's is static.

Just saying ultimately there is little difference between what the party banter in Origins accomplished and what the cutscenes, based on the comments in the article, will accomplish. It's the same thing witha different coat of paint.

I like the new coat of paint then...

As do I, I was just pointing out that this isn't something new for BioWare as a few people seem to think it is. It's no different from party banter in Origins, elevator chat in ME, the scenes in Jade Empire where they talk about it when you're absent, etc.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:18 .

[David Gaider]

TheMadCat wrote...
As do I, I was just pointing out that this isn't something new for BioWare as a few people seem to think it is. It's no different from party banter in Origins, elevator chat in ME, the scenes in Jade Empire where they talk about it when you're absent, etc.

That's true. It's just a way of presenting that your followers have relationships even when you're not present, but ultimately it's simply a different type of banter.

[In Exile]

TheMadCat wrote...
The second part was meant to state it did nothing to actually foster any real relationships between the NPC's, nor does it seem like it will here. They'll have their predefined opinions (If even that) and that's it. Essentially I'm saying the only fluid relationship is those of the players character, NPC's relationships with other NPC's is static.

Just saying ultimately there is little difference between what the party banter in Origins accomplished and what the cutscenes, based on the comments in the article, will accomplish. It's the same thing witha different coat of paint.

That's what I thought you meant. And you don't feel this actually makes them richer characters, versus a lack of banter? I think that changing up how banter happens is precisely what makes people more real. In the end, even the PC-NPC interaction is scripted.

[TheMadCat]

In Exile wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...
The second part was meant to state it did nothing to actually foster any real relationships between the NPC's, nor does it seem like it will here. They'll have their predefined opinions (If even that) and that's it. Essentially I'm saying the only fluid relationship is those of the players character, NPC's relationships with other NPC's is static.

Just saying ultimately there is little difference between what the party banter in Origins accomplished and what the cutscenes, based on the comments in the article, will accomplish. It's the same thing witha different coat of paint.

That's what I thought you meant. And you don't feel this actually makes them richer characters, versus a lack of banter? I think that changing up how banter happens is precisely what makes people more real. In the end, even the PC-NPC interaction is scripted.

I love party banter and I think it does a lot for the characters, I never said otherwise. I was just pointing to people who believe this is somthing new for BioWare or this was going to add another level of depth that wasn't in Origins that they are heading in the wrong direction and that it's ultimately going to be along the same lines and lead to the same results as the banter between NPC's we saw in Origins.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:34 .

[thehistorysage]

It's no different from party banter in Origins, elevator chat in ME, the scenes in Jade Empire where they talk about it when you're absent, etc.

Except that it will be more intimate and in-depth it seems, which is always a good thing. It imparts as well a greater sense of life into the characters that they're doing their own thing when they're not in your party.

Modifié par thehistorysage, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:38 .

[HTTP 404]

In Exile wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...
The second part was meant to state it did nothing to actually foster any real relationships between the NPC's, nor does it seem like it will here. They'll have their predefined opinions (If even that) and that's it. Essentially I'm saying the only fluid relationship is those of the players character, NPC's relationships with other NPC's is static.

Just saying ultimately there is little difference between what the party banter in Origins accomplished and what the cutscenes, based on the comments in the article, will accomplish. It's the same thing witha different coat of paint.

That's what I thought you meant. And you don't feel this actually makes them richer characters, versus a lack of banter? I think that changing up how banter happens is precisely what makes people more real. In the end, even the PC-NPC interaction is scripted.

I agree with Exile's point of view.  its refreshing due to variety.  MadCat downplays it as being redone, different coat so to speak.  each to their own, I guess.

[Maria Caliban]

TheMadCat wrote...

The second part was meant to state it did nothing to actually foster any real relationships between the NPC's, nor does it seem like it will here. They'll have their predefined opinions (If even that) and that's it. Essentially I'm saying the only fluid relationship is those of the players character, NPC's relationships with other NPC's is static.

By this reasoning, Romeo and Juliet didn't actually fall in love. Ebenezer Scrooge never actually found the true meaning of Christmas (and life). Jacob Singer didn't actually find peace before he died.

While I'm at it, the PC's interactions with followers are just as scripted and ultimately just as (not) real.

Of course, it's fine to point out that characters aren't real so their relationships aren't real and any progress they experience is simply an illusion. It's completely true.

However, fiction functions because we believe in those characters and relationship. Because we experience them even though they don't exist. In that sense, these do foster relationships because we perceive them as doing so.

TheMadCat wrote...

I was just pointing to people who believe this is somthing new for BioWare or this was going to add another level of depth that wasn't in Origins that they are heading in the wrong direction and that it's ultimately going to be along the same lines and lead to the same results as the banter between NPC's we saw in Origins.

I think the problem here is that you're treating depth as simply a matter of mechanics. That makes sense for gameplay, but not when it comes to story.

I'm going to suggest you're the one going in the wrong direction because the frame of reference you're using is simply not the right one for the subject.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:45 .

[upsettingshorts]

Indeed, the DAO way - well, not just DAO but all the games in which the party simply talked by walking over some invisible tripwire as if the protagonist wasn't present - did kind of take me out of the moment. I think I'm going to like the DA2 way of essentially accomplishing the same thing.

[Shepard Lives]

I really just want the same amount of banter that was in DAO. I don't care how it's presented as long as it doesn't use the KOTOR system.

And maybe a companion- Varric, or your sibling - that asks you what you think of the others. Alistair did that in DAO when his approval was high enough and I thought it was great since it offered a lot of room for NPC and PC development (the Warden expresses their views and Alistair his, and above all Ali acknowledges interaction between companions) while actually offering rather little dialogue.

Modifié par Shepard Lives, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:48 .

[Saibh]

Shepard Lives wrote...

I really just want the same amount of banter that was in DAO. I don't care how it's presented as long as it doesn't use the KOTOR system.

And maybe a companion- Varric, or your sibling - that asks you what you think of the others. Alistair did that in DAO when his approval was high enough and I thought it was great since it offered a lot of room for NPC and PC development (the Warden expresses their views and Alistair his, and above all Ali acknowledges interaction between companions) while actually offering rather little dialogue.

One thing I wish was present in the banter system was the power to ask about the things they were saying later--like you can with Sten. Sometimes just for fun (swaying hips, hmm?), but mostly for serious reasons (Wynne, you have a son?). I understand why we can't interrupt them during the banter, but I'd like for the banter to trigger a conversation with your party members later.

In any case, I suppose I feel like the characters talking to each other seperately outside of your party feels different. That they get along without you, and that you are not the sole and vital reason they talk to each other. In DAO, I didn't feel like any of the party members would really get along without the Warden, or ever communicate again. Even in the case of Shale and Wynne, I didn't feel that team was born out of affection.

[mellifera]

Saibh wrote...
One thing I wish was present in the banter system was the power to ask about the things they were saying later--like you can with Sten. Sometimes just for fun (swaying hips, hmm?), but mostly for serious reasons (Wynne, you have a son?). I understand why we can't interrupt them during the banter, but I'd like for the banter to trigger a conversation with your party members later.

In any case, I suppose I feel like the characters talking to each other seperately outside of your party feels different. That they get along without you, and that you are not the sole and vital reason they talk to each other. In DAO, I didn't feel like any of the party members would really get along without the Warden, or ever communicate again. Even in the case of Shale and Wynne, I didn't feel that team was born out of affection.

Pretty much all of this. While the banter was awesome I felt the same way in DAO that I did in both ME games. Aside from certain people it didn't seem that the group as a whole cared much for each other if the PC wasn't there. Which, I suppose, is one of the major features I like about JRPGs. The characters and the group as a whole kind of feel more like a family or a bunch of friends fighting the odds as opposed to a bunch of people fighting the odds who only talk to each other when they're hanging out with you.

[TheMadCat]

thehistorysage wrote...

Except that it will be more
intimate and in-depth it seems, which is always a good thing. It imparts
as well a greater sense of life into the characters that they're doing
their own thing when they're not in your party.

That has yet to be seen obviously. Judging by Mike's quick example, I'd say not a whole lot more intimate and in-depth. Possible, but that I'll determine when I actually see it.

HTTP 404 wrote...

I agree with Exile's point of view.  its
refreshing due to variety.  MadCat downplays it as being redone,
different coat so to speak.  each to their own, I guess.

Holy hell, I just agreed with you two posts above that I do like this fresh coat of paint. That doesn't dismiss the fact it is just a fresh coat of paint.

Maria Caliban wrote...
By this reasoning, Romeo and Juliet didn't actually fall in love. Ebenezer Scrooge never actually found the true meaning of Christmas (and life). Jacob Singer didn't actually find peace before he died.

While I'm at it, the PC's interactions with followers are just as scripted and ultimately just as (not) real.

Of course, it's fine to point out that characters aren't real so their relationships aren't real and any progress they experience is simply an illusion. It's completely true.

However, fiction functions because we believe in those characters and relationship. Because we experience them even though they don't exist. In that sense, these do foster relationships because we perceive them as doing so.

That's my point though, the NPC's aren't developing together as we saw Romeo and Juliet or Scrooge develop, almost all of our compaions develop stricly with the PC. These little secenes are nice and all that and they do add depth to the character, but this isn't their primary mode of development, this isn't where you're going to see their archs plays out to the fullest, hell even NPC's opinions about the other NPC's have been clearly expressed by the specific NPC directly to the PC in every BioWare game. They're nice, I like them, and they add some depth to the character but as far as NPC's relationships with other NPC's, ultimately they just give you an outside view of what they told or will tell you. Like I said originally, companion development is only really fluid with the PC, everywhere else it's is pretty static.

Maybe they'll change that in DA2, but that's how it's been in every other BioWare game.

I think the problem here is that you're treating depth as simply a matter of mechanics. That makes sense for gameplay, but not when it comes to story.

I'm going to suggest you're the one going in the wrong direction because the frame of reference you're using is simply not the right one for the subject.

Would breking to a cutscene when Leliana and Morrigan broke into banter done anything more to add to their depth? How about Oghren and Wynne? That was my point, to show that this is nothing more then a different way to present the party banter that has been in BioWare games forever. How am I going in the wrong direction?

Modifié par TheMadCat, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:17 .

[Beerfish]

"Would breking to a cutscene when Leliana and Morrigan broke into banter
done anything more to add to their depth? How about Oghren and Wynne?
That was my point, to show that this is nothing more then a different
way to present the party banter that has been in BioWare games forever.
How am I going in the wrong direction? "

Yes it would, the old saying that a picture is worth a thousand words is relevant at least to me.  As you have stated the content may not be much different but the 'feel' of these moments will be different, at least in my opinion.

[TheMadCat]

Beerfish wrote...
Yes it would, the old saying that a picture is worth a thousand words is relevant at least to me.  As you have stated the content may not be much different but the 'feel' of these moments will be different, at least in my opinion.

Could create a more emotional scene sure, but that wasn't the question. The question was does it add anymore depth to their character and their relationship with another companion then how it was done in Origins or Mass Effect? That's what people seem to be railing me on, my notion that this doesn't directly do anything more to add depth to the companions and their relationships with one another then BioWare's previous systems.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 21 janvier 2011 - 11:52 .

[Il Divo]

TheMadCat wrote...

Could create a more emotional scene sure, but that wasn't the question. The question was does it add anymore depth to their character and their relationship with another companion then how it was done in Origins or Mass Effect? That's what people seem to be railing me on, my notion that this doesn't directly do anything more to add depth to the companions and their relationships with one another then BioWare's previous systems.

I think you just answered the question though. The reason why this changes things is that all party banter occurred because those characters were accompanying the Warden while he was recruiting his army, not out of any real sense of friendship or rivalry between the characters.

The implementation now seems to indicate that these characters are not just together because of Hawke but have a relationship to each other which is independent of him and that adds quite a bit more depth. And since this is happening over the course of 10 years, though Hawke may be an important character, it makes it more clear that these characters have some relationship with each other.

[sedeyus]

If nothing else, Bioware should be taking some notes from this thread. The concept of Companions' relationships evolving in different ways throughout a game is an interesting one. It seems like a logical step for the next Bioware game to take. Obliviously, there still should be some PC interaction. How about something like two companions have an argument. You have to the option to patch up the rift. If you do the characters go on and become good friends. If you don't their animosity builds and builds until finally one of them leaves the group. I'm just spitballing here but I do think this is something Bioware should consider.

[Lethys1]

Phoenixblight wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

For this one what we’ve tried to do is give him the sense that your companions actually have their own space, their own role, their own kind of agendas in the city of Kirkwall. There are moments when you come into the bar and you’ll find one companion chatting with another. You start talking to them, and then they’re talking about something the two of them have done. Then they’re like, “Oh hey Hawke, how are you doing,” and one of them gets up and leaves and you continue on. It creates this dynamic between the companions that says these are people. They have friendships within their own group. They’ve gotten to know people through you. As the game progresses, as that decade plays out, they start to have their own rivalries and things like, “I did that favor for you like you asked” kind of stuff. And you’re like, “Wow, this is neat.” These feel like much more realized people simply because they have their own place and goals within the city.

Translation: the game doesn't revolve around you anymore like any proper game should.
Extrapolation: companions will complete quests for you if you take too long and keep the loot and experience for themselves and they can even become Champion themselves if you're too much of a chump.
Conclusion: worst game ever, canceling pre-order now.

Do it. The door is that way <------- and don't let it hit you on the way out.

I welcome this addition it adds atmosphere.

I love it when people don't understand simple sarcasm.

[Saibh]

Lethys1 wrote...

I love it when people don't understand simple sarcasm.

Some people honest-to-god think like that, and talk like that. There are no visual or audio cues on the internet.

[TheMadCat]

Il Divo wrote...
I think you just answered the question though. The reason why this changes things is that all party banter occurred because those characters were accompanying the Warden while he was recruiting his army, not out of any real sense of friendship or rivalry between the characters.

I disagree, I thought Origins banter did a great job of revealing one companions feelings or attitude towards another. You could feel the animosity and rivalry between Morrigan and Leliana for the Warden's affections, the slight distaste Wynne had for Zev, Oghren's messing around with Alistair. To me those moments felt very genuine and like I said above gave us an outside view of what we already knew of their feelings towards one another.

The implementation now seems to indicate that these characters are not just together because of Hawke but have a relationship to each other which is independent of him and that adds quite a bit more depth. And since this is happening over the course of 10 years, though Hawke may be an important character, it makes it more clear that these characters have some relationship with each other.

That we don't know, for all we know the only reason they're around each other is because of Hawke and his agenda. We'll have to see there, though I do agree with the length of 10 years that gives BioWare ample opportunity to do things with companions that they really haven't been able to do before. Wait and see if they take advantage of it.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 22 janvier 2011 - 12:14 .

[Il Divo]

TheMadCat wrote...

I disagree, I thought Origins banter did a great job of revealing one companions feelings or attitude towards another. You could feel the animosity and rivalry between Morrigan and Leliana for the Warden's affections, the slight distaste Wynne had for Zev, Oghren's messing around with Alistair. To me those moments felt very genuine and like I said above gave us an outside view of what we already knew of their feelings towards one another.

Ah, but see the problem is that we only ever got to see those reactions manifest in such a limited context. Take your Mass Effect elevator example. The conversations weren't terrible (though DA:O did it better), but that they only ever occurred in the elevator made them seem very limited. DA:O suffered from the same issue since companions would only converse in the Warden's presence.

What I like about this new system is that it is much closer to Obsidion's Kotor II, where there were quite a few sequences where your PC would come onto the ship to find other companions interacting with each other. It was limited, but I'm looking forward to seeing it more refined in DA2, combined with the more typical party banter.

That we don't know, for all we know the only reason they're around each other is because of Hawke and his agenda. We'll have to see there, though I do agree with the length of 10 years that gives BioWare ample opportunity to do things with companions that they really haven't been able to do before. Wait and see if they take advantage of it.

Aye, it should make for exciting times either way. I can't wait.

[Ravenmyste]

filaminstrel wrote...

Is it the problem or was it the intent?

I was trying to do my brother nightcobra a solid and bait some interest/responses via argument, and while that seemed to have failed miserably, maybe all hope is not lost!

Though I dunno how you can call that post trolling, sounds like a guy's honest opinion. Unless he's just a grandmaster troll.

BZZZIT, SPRONK, sproink ,blam wizit whoom...`smoke comming from the sides of  alittle box`

damn it flaminstrel you broke my biowware sarcasim{sp its been long day  and to tired to spell right} detector with your post  it was so strong that it went off as trolling and  i know you  dont always troll now i need to go out and buy another one...

/shakes fist!