106 réponses à ce sujet

[STG]

It's safe to say that paragons see geth as "living" creatures. Creatures who are more than just metal robots. Creatures with their own culture and judging by Legion's behaviour, even emotions of sorts. Renegades on the other hand view geth as useful tools in upcoming battle against reapers. Things that should be used so that organic casualties are lower and as cannon fodder. Machines, and as such, tools, nothing more.

Extreme examples, I know. There are always exeptions, paragades, renegons and so on...

So, if that is the case why is then a decision to rewrite heretics, something that might be seen as brain washing for no other reason than a different view point a paragon decision? There is nothing heroic, noble, just or virtuous in forcing a group of "people" into your way of thinking through force. Also why should renegades destroy them all? I am sure that most renegades who activated Legion saw the potential geth possess. They could be extremely useful in upcoming battle, and adding more numbers to their already strong army just might tip the scales in our favour.

[Vaenier]

Because you kill them and replace them with a loyal Geth while not damaging the hardware. The Renegades just kill them and blow up the hardware. Its about what you get at the end after you kill them. Renegades dont take the risk of the platforms going back to helping Reapers. Renegades dont take risks, they end problems right there with a bullet.

Modifié par Vaenier, 21 janvier 2011 - 03:41 .

[james1976]

This was a moral problem for my Paragon. He couldn't justify "brain-washing" and to him it would be no different than what the Reapers do to people like Saren and Liara's mother. So he got +30 Renegade points for blowing up the base. Blowing it up made sense to Tali as well if you had her with you. My Paragon still had max paragon on the meter, just a some renegade points added on top.

I don't play RPGs out of character, period.  So all my decisions are based on what my character would do.

Modifié par james1976, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:05 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Because it will probably work out for the better.



No. Really. Given that the beginning of the mission established the Paragon/Renegade positions as the exact opposite, and there was no gradual buildup or change of perspective, that's most likely the single greatest reason for why they made it that way. Similar to why going behind the Quarian trial's back and burying evidence of war crime behavior is a paragon action in Tali's LM.

[Spartas Husky]

best Example I have ever seen is the Mordin speech:



"like krogan, chane preferale to extintion.... unless reprogramming unethical... thoughts?"



Personally I think of it this way. When you reprogram the Geth you are essentially.... actually let me put it more in prespective.



Country A and Country B Split.

Country A has a culture in which all it wants is to be left alone and to leave everyone else alone.

Country B wants to kill all... all that aren't them.



if you brainwash Countrie's B population to accept a more cooperative way of existence you are essentially destroying, erasing w/e Country B. But you are preserving the resources of it. The "shells".



In the same way. You are destrying the minds of the heretics but preserving their infrastructure, and in the long run we need every shell available, organic or synthetic.



Do you destroy their minds and let the new personnas take over the bodies or destry the mind and then give a final insult by destroying the body.



Your taking their life either way, but the Paragon choice, which I find it a lot more interesting preserves the body for a new life to take over.



Another example: is like doing a brain transplant on a psycopath. You take out the psycopath's brain and smash it on the ground, and replace it by.... some random guy whose body was giving out.



or you just blow the psycopath sky high.

[Fiery Phoenix]

It's Paragon because it doesn't involve killing them. Really. It's that simple.

[ZachForrest]

Depends on the degree of reprogamming i reckon. If they lost all of their original self and became entirely different beings, then killing them and reprogramming them are much the same. I'm sure many people reprogrammed them with a view to use them against the reapers too, simply a means to an end.
I don't think either decision falls into paragon/renegade


'Personally
I think of it this way. When you reprogram the Geth you are
essentially.... actually let me put it more in prespective.

Country A and Country B Split.

Country A has a culture in which all it wants is to be left alone and to leave everyone else alone.

Country B wants to kill all... all that aren't them.'

You've just repeated the situation verbatim, how is this offering perspective?

Modifié par ZachForrest, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:25 .

[Spartas Husky]

.....if you brainwash a terrorist into believing something else you are essentially killing the person you knew. As to replace it with a less violent personality.

[james1976]

I really do not think this situation is so black and white. It's kind of morally gray. You are asked to make a tough choice and you can run it down however you like depending on your perspective or your character's perspective. From my own personal perspective one choice is as bad as the other and should both be renegade decisions to a more or less degree. I see no paragon choice available. But then not everyone has the sense of right and wrong either on every topic. That is part of what makes these games great is the tough moral choices, but some like this are tougher than others. If I was looking at from my character's perspective, it would depend on which character I was playing.

[pprrff]

Beside, Legion itself said that geth value and human value are not always the same. Didn't he say that rewriting the geth heretic is like reattaching a severed limb. I guess some morality doesn't translate well from human to geth and vice versa.

[Vaenier]

Also, Legion wanted to rewrite them through the power of democracy. So its Paragon to listen to him, and Renegade to ignore that democracy.

[ZachForrest]

Vaenier wrote...

Also, Legion wanted to rewrite them through the power of democracy. So its Paragon to listen to him, and Renegade to ignore that democracy.

What were the results? Am I right in thinking there was only 1 vote difference? Or was it 1%?

[Spartas Husky]

ZachForrest wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Also, Legion wanted to rewrite them through the power of democracy. So its Paragon to listen to him, and Renegade to ignore that democracy.

What were the results? Am I right in thinking there was only 1 vote difference? Or was it 1%?

If I remember correctly, there difference is of 3 or 4 votes. They are basically tied.

[Spartas Husky]

found it :



During Legion's attempt to find consensus, Legion states that it has 573 processes voting for re-purposing the virus and 571 voting for destroying the station, leading to a total of 1,144. This is 39 fewer than the stated total of 1,183; since Legion mentions earlier that its high-level processes had not reached consensus, one possibility is that some of its lower-level processes do not participate in this decision. Alternatively, it may be that those 39 processes are still "on the fence", or perhaps even abstaining - that is, if the geth have such a concept.

[jbblue05]

I let the Heretics die for their cause everytime

[Undertone]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

It's Paragon because it doesn't involve killing them. Really. It's that simple.

Yep.

[cachx]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...
It's Paragon because it doesn't involve killing them. Really. It's that simple.

Exactly.

I mostly go for killing them with all my characters. I mean, the brainwash draws parallels to that little thing called indoctrination. The thing that the ultimate badguys do? the thing that we're fighting against? I have lots of trouble to justify brainwash.

[Big stupid jellyfish]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

It's Paragon because it doesn't involve killing them. Really. It's that simple.

This.

I guess when Biowarians decide which options would be marked as paragon and which as renegade they consider this first - paragon options involve less killing and less harm done to others NOW.

Possible future implications (like letting Balak go so that he could crush another asteroid on another planet later) are hardly taken into account.

Modifié par Big stupid jellyfish, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:02 .

[Moiaussi]

It was the one tough decision in ME2 for me, but always ends up being arbitrary because we are really presented with two options both distasteful. The paragon option should probably have been to walk away and choose neither....

[Spartas Husky]

Undertone wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

It's Paragon because it doesn't involve killing them. Really. It's that simple.

Yep.

if you do a brain transplant on a genocidal psycopath. Toss his brain out and put in the brain of a kid with... I duno aids.

Didn't you effectively kill the genocidal maniac???

[Vaenier]

Moiaussi wrote...

It was the one tough decision in ME2 for me, but always ends up being arbitrary because we are really presented with two options both distasteful. The paragon option should probably have been to walk away and choose neither....

lol, that was just dumb.

The Hetetics are waging a war against organics and aiding the Reapers. And you want to just walk away and not stop them? They are your enemy. You have to put them down. They made their choice to aid the Reapers.

[james1976]

What happens if the Heretics find out they were rewritten (brainwashed) later down the road?

[The-Mimic]

I see the Heretics as already brainwashed by the Reapers, or Indoctrinated if you use the terms of the game. Heretics are like a sect in the Geth race. A terrorist sect.



Rewritting them simply removes the indoctrination and reboot them with their original programming. Thus removing the threat of terrorism and making them go back to their peers.



That's how my Paragon Shepard reasoned anyway.

[Vaenier]

The-Mimic wrote...

I see the Heretics as already brainwashed by the Reapers, or Indoctrinated if you use the terms of the game. Heretics are like a sect in the Geth race. A terrorist sect.

Rewritting them simply removes the indoctrination and reboot them with their original programming. Thus removing the threat of terrorism and making them go back to their peers.

That's how my Paragon Shepard reasoned anyway.

They were not indoctrinated. They made the choice of their own free will.

[The-Mimic]

There's nothing to prove that they did or didn't.