106 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

My thoughts:

The Heretic geth were actually suffering from a form of indocrination for synthetics.  You aren't actually "reprogramming" them, you are "deprogramming" them, undoing the damage Sovereign did.

At least, that's what my very-much-paragon-Shep says to sleep at night

[Vaenier]

If you have to lie to yourself to justify your actions, whatever.

But Heretics chose their path. Sovereign did nothing to them. He couldnt, that was the entire purpose of the virus in the first place.

[Spartas Husky]

iakus wrote...

My thoughts:

The Heretic geth were actually suffering from a form of indocrination for synthetics.  You aren't actually "reprogramming" them, you are "deprogramming" them, undoing the damage Sovereign did.

At least, that's what my very-much-paragon-Shep says to sleep at night

no better way to justify genocide than to lie to oneself.

[pprrff]

Also it's really hard to call the option 'killing', since it's hard to define what you are killing. Are each individual geth program a 'living' thing that you can kill by deleting them? Or are they like cells in our body, I mean nobody cares if some 'murder' one of your skin cells. Legion even said that each individual program are no more complicated than our operating system and can't achieve sapient status.

Edit: The point I try to make is that there isn't really a moral or immoral choice here. It's paragon to to rewrite geth because it shows Shepard that he trust the geth and have no fear of them gaining strength by having heretic rejoin them, and it's renegade to wipe them because it shows Shepard is distrustful of the geth and would rather weaken them by wiping out the heretic.

Paragon/Renegade has more to do with the truth geth than the heretic geth.

Modifié par pprrff, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:07 .

[Spartas Husky]

pprrff wrote...

Also it's really hard to call the option 'killing', since it's hard to define what you are killing. Are each individual geth program a 'living' thing that you can kill by deleting them? Or are they like cells in our body, I mean nobody cares if some 'murder' one of your skin cells. Legion even said that each individual program are no more complicated than our operating system and can't achieve sapient status.

schemantics. you killed the personality.

Again. If you take the brain of a psycopath and bash it on the ground and replace it with the brain of... some random guy whose body is dying. Didn't you essentially killed the psycopath??? body still there but the mind isn't.

[Iakus]

Vaenier wrote...

If you have to lie to yourself to justify your actions, whatever.
But Heretics chose their path. Sovereign did nothing to them. He couldnt, that was the entire purpose of the virus in the first place.

Unless the "error" in the Heretic's programming was introduced via a virus as well

[Vaenier]

iakus wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If you have to lie to yourself to justify your actions, whatever.
But Heretics chose their path. Sovereign did nothing to them. He couldnt, that was the entire purpose of the virus in the first place.

Unless the "error" in the Heretic's programming was introduced via a virus as well

There was no error. They came to the conclusion that it was in their best interest to work for the Reapers to gain a Reaper body and join them. Their experiences and values led to that choice.

[pprrff]

pprrff wrote...

Edit: The point I try to make is that there isn't really a moral or immoral choice here. It's paragon to to rewrite geth because it shows Shepard that he trust the geth and have no fear of them gaining strength by having heretic rejoin them, and it's renegade to wipe them because it shows Shepard is distrustful of the geth and would rather weaken them by wiping out the heretic.

Paragon/Renegade has more to do with the truth geth than the heretic geth.

[pprrff]

accidental post

Modifié par pprrff, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:11 .

[PauseforEffect]

Geth are not alive; they are sapient. The choice either way eliminates the heretics. Rewriting them will strengthen the Geth as whole. It is mentioned that there's a nonzero probability of them returning to the split again, thus preserving the free will to reach their own decisions. It's more like reconciling a separated nation.

[Xilizhra]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

It's Paragon because it doesn't involve killing them. Really. It's that simple.

Indeedy.

[Mister Mida]

I think the choice at Heretic Station may be limited by the morality system. Or maybe they never thought about another choice: just destroy the virus and get the hell out.

[Mister Mida]

Crap. Double post.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 21 janvier 2011 - 07:27 .

[Spartas Husky]

... This is going nowhere lol. In anycase the heretics wont be a problem either way... paragon standpoint... unlikely. renegade standpoint, for a very long time.

[Iakus]

Spartas Husky wrote...

... This is going nowhere lol. In anycase the heretics wont be a problem either way... paragon standpoint... unlikely. renegade standpoint, for a very long time.

And If you do option #3: don't do the mission at all?  I could forsee a big problem there

[Spartas Husky]

iakus wrote...

Spartas Husky wrote...

... This is going nowhere lol. In anycase the heretics wont be a problem either way... paragon standpoint... unlikely. renegade standpoint, for a very long time.

And If you do option #3: don't do the mission at all?  I could forsee a big problem there

no argument there.:innocent:

[Nashiktal]

This is just the P and R system showing its flaws. bioware has been using Paragon and Renegade as a saint and ass system. You are either a nice guy or a bad guy, even though that isnt what P and R means or what it was meant to be.



Honestly the Geth choice was one of the few true grey choices. Yes the heretics are aiding the reapers, however brainwashing the whole lot of them to change sides? That is practically what the reapers do. Kill the heretics? Wipe out those aiding the reapers, yet strengthen the true geth which we have no real knowledge of their true intents. (Even if Legion is telling the truth, he hasnt synced with the geth for some time)

[Spartas Husky]

Nashiktal wrote...

This is just the P and R system showing its flaws. bioware has been using Paragon and Renegade as a saint and ass system. You are either a nice guy or a bad guy, even though that isnt what P and R means or what it was meant to be.

Honestly the Geth choice was one of the few true grey choices. Yes the heretics are aiding the reapers, however brainwashing the whole lot of them to change sides? That is practically what the reapers do. Kill the heretics? Wipe out those aiding the reapers, yet strengthen the true geth which we have no real knowledge of their true intents. (Even if Legion is telling the truth, he hasnt synced with the geth for some time)

well the morality system is not perfect... but is not that bad. Although not letting me put Elnora in futuristic handcuffs on both hands and legs instead oe letting her go did bug me alot. thatw as before I found out it was her blue ass who shot that volus.

[Moiaussi]

Vaenier wrote...

There was no error. They came to the conclusion that it was in their best interest to work for the Reapers to gain a Reaper body and join them. Their experiences and values led to that choice.

You know that how, exactly? It is bothering that we have no objective source of data and cannot even talk to the heretics.

Bottom line though is that there is a war. They refuse to communicate or give quarter or surrender. That does change the morality of options.

[naledgeborn]

The Heretics willingly chose to join the Reapers. The Geth allowed it. The Heretics invented a virus to indoctrinate the Geth. Legion fights back either by blowing them up or rewriting them. Rewriting them could however have negative implications because all of the Heretic's experience and point of view would be assimilated into the greater Geth collective altering their perception. The Geth getting stronger isn't to be worried but the Heretics polluting the Geth consciousness is.

Blowing them up is Renegade because you're permanently destroying them. Rewriting them is Paragon is because you're "giving them the chance" of continued existence by forcibly joining the Geth.

[Ryzaki]

And that's the one paragon option I will *never* take. It is not right to take anyway anyone's free will. So I blow them to hell and take the renegade points.

[Xilizhra]

So you'd rather kill someone than deprogram them from a cult?

[james1976]

Vaenier wrote...

iakus wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If you have to lie to yourself to justify your actions, whatever.
But Heretics chose their path. Sovereign did nothing to them. He couldnt, that was the entire purpose of the virus in the first place.

Unless the "error" in the Heretic's programming was introduced via a virus as well

There was no error. They came to the conclusion that it was in their best interest to work for the Reapers to gain a Reaper body and join them. Their experiences and values led to that choice.

Indeed.  It was thier choice to be heretics, they weren't infected with a virus or indoctrinated.  Reprograming takes away their choice and that which they are.

[Jagri]

I get the impression its just erasing one bad idea the heretics had about why joining the Reapers is a good idea. Their isn't any mental blocks that will prevent them for reconsidering the possiability once more but now with contact from the main body of the their kind they will have more information in order to make a better decision. Now hopefully that decision is to fight the coming of the Reapers.

[james1976]

Xilizhra wrote...

So you'd rather kill someone than deprogram them from a cult?

That would depend on the circumstances.  Did they join the cult by choice?  Or where they kidnapped and brainwashed into thinking the way they do.