106 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

james1976 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So you'd rather kill someone than deprogram them from a cult?

That would depend on the circumstances.  Did they join the cult by choice?  Or where they kidnapped and brainwashed into thinking the way they do.

Consistent, albeit brutal.

[Jagri]

james1976 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So you'd rather kill someone than deprogram them from a cult?

That would depend on the circumstances.  Did they join the cult by choice?  Or where they kidnapped and brainwashed into thinking the way they do.

Most join cults willing but then are subjected to some of the fellowing...

1) People are put in physical or emotionally distressing situations;
2) Their problems are reduced to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized;
3) They receive unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic leader or group;
4) They get a new identity based on the group;
5) They are subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives and the mainstream culture) and their access to information is severely controlled.

Free will begins to take a back seat as people are programmed to think a certain way.

[Fredvdp]

I think legion is pretty clear. Applying human morality on an alien synthetic species is racist. They are different and have to be treated differently. "Unethical" has no meaning when dealing with the geth.

Modifié par Fredvdp, 21 janvier 2011 - 08:29 .

[Spartas Husky]

Fredvdp wrote...

I think legion is pretty clear. Applying human morality on an alien synthetic species is racist. They are different and have to be treated differently. "Unethical" has no meaning when dealing with the geth.

That was not the intention.

intention is to make you think about those who have fanatical views that prohibit coexistence. Anyone who follows such a path is not worth of sympathy.

It has nothign to do with machine or fleshies. Is about idology and whose idealogy prevents cooperation .

"we simply stated the option exist we do not endorse it. The heretics/fantics will kill all organics(aka non heretics) their gods tell them so. They have chosen a path that prohibits coexistence, do not falter now"

what does that sound to you like today?

Modifié par Spartas Husky, 21 janvier 2011 - 08:34 .

[Terraneaux]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Because it will probably work out for the better.

No. Really. Given that the beginning of the mission established the Paragon/Renegade positions as the exact opposite, and there was no gradual buildup or change of perspective, that's most likely the single greatest reason for why they made it that way. Similar to why going behind the Quarian trial's back and burying evidence of war crime behavior is a paragon action in Tali's LM.

Pretty much.  

[GodWood]

I wipe them out because (from what I understand) when you 'rewrite them' it integrates the memories of the heretic geth into the regular geth collective which may possibly result in regular geth converting to heretic geth somewhere down the line.

Thoughts like "brainwashing is wrong" didn't even cross my mind.

[Jagri]

573 for re-purposing the virus
571 for destroying the station

Its the Paragon decision because you are going with the majority vote and allowing the Geth to control their own fate. There no need to nuke it right?

Modifié par Jagri, 21 janvier 2011 - 08:42 .

[RiouHotaru]

Rewriting the heretics isn't brainwashing, even Legion says it's not brainwashing. Why do people keep drawing this analogy despite the game itself stating for a fact this isn't the case? I mean seriously folks. You can keep claiming it's brainwashing all you want, but that doesn't change the fact you're wrong.

[Inquisitor Recon]

You can't brainwash a robot, you reprogramming it.



I would say it is the paragon choice because it is one of those choices that involves Shepard trusting everybody to the point of madness.

[xXSnak3Eat3rXx]

nvm

Modifié par xXSnak3Eat3rXx, 21 janvier 2011 - 09:05 .

[james1976]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Rewriting the heretics isn't brainwashing, even Legion says it's not brainwashing. Why do people keep drawing this analogy despite the game itself stating for a fact this isn't the case? I mean seriously folks. You can keep claiming it's brainwashing all you want, but that doesn't change the fact you're wrong.

Because when Shepard questions the ethics of it he says he couldn't see brainwashing an organic species so he didn't see any difference when applying it to a syntheic species.  That's actually where the brainwashing term came from in relation to this topic and that is part of what got a number of us thinking about the Geth as a race and not just robots.

[pprrff]

james1976 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Rewriting the heretics isn't brainwashing, even Legion says it's not brainwashing. Why do people keep drawing this analogy despite the game itself stating for a fact this isn't the case? I mean seriously folks. You can keep claiming it's brainwashing all you want, but that doesn't change the fact you're wrong.

Because when Shepard questions the ethics of it he says he couldn't see brainwashing an organic species so he didn't see any difference when applying it to a syntheic species.  That's actually where the brainwashing term came from in relation to this topic and that is part of what got a number of us thinking about the Geth as a race and not just robots.

But Legion immediately repudiate you by telling you that just because you think it's brainwashing doesn't make it so. He says organic are organic and geth are geth. Morality are sometimes shared but not others. He is perfectly satisfied with rewriting the geth.

[Moiaussi]

pprrff wrote...

But Legion immediately repudiate you by telling you that just because you think it's brainwashing doesn't make it so. He says organic are organic and geth are geth. Morality are sometimes shared but not others. He is perfectly satisfied with rewriting the geth.

Just because Legion thinks it is not so doesn't make it not so either though. You don't get a chance to find out the Heretic point of view, or any independant source of how the Heretics came to their decision.  

[Omnicrat]

Vaenier wrote...

Also, Legion wanted to rewrite them through the power of democracy. So its Paragon to listen to him, and Renegade to ignore that democracy.

I really think that one run time supporting re-write is the reason it was paragon.  So, disscounting the reason I think BW used, this is the reasoning I had for reversing the choices.

Do not think of the Geth and the Heretics as different races, or even different factions of the same race; think of them as two different people.

The Geth gain intelegence by networking, the same way a brain gains intelegence by making neural connections.  They have run-times like we have brain cells.  There is one Geth (with the possible exception of Legion) and there is one Heretic.

Now that we have that cleared up, it is not a question of brainwashing a race or commiting genocide, but brainwashing an individual or commiting murder.

Which is more beneficial in the long run and which is more ethical; murdering your enemy or brainwashing them to make them fight with you instead of against you?

I posit that death is preferable ethically to removing the free-will of an individual, and therefore, blowing them up should be the paragon path.  Also, you have a greater long-term pay of of brainwashing the Heretic, which is the main drive behind renegade actions (at least in theory).

So, in sumation; While the coices are backwards from what they should be, bioware made it that way because one runtime in legion thinks re-write is preferable to destruction, making it the majority decision.

[Omnicrat]

cachx wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...
It's Paragon because it doesn't involve killing them. Really. It's that simple.

Exactly.

I mostly go for killing them with all my characters. I mean, the brainwash draws parallels to that little thing called indoctrination. The thing that the ultimate badguys do? the thing that we're fighting against? I have lots of trouble to justify brainwash.

guilt by assosiation fallacy.  Its like saying universal healthcare is bad because hitler instituted universal healthcare.  Your reasoning is flawed.  Rethink it and get back to us.

[Omnicrat]

The-Mimic wrote...

There's nothing to prove that they did or didn't.

There is nothing to prove Saren wasn't manipulating you into thinking the Reapers are real.  Vigil could have been a trick, meant to slow you down.  His discovered indocterination in the ancient war ship (not intelegent, but still ancient) slowly affected his mind and made him come to believe his own lie.  The collectors just found some scematics left behind by the race that created Soveriegn and figured out a way to build a close aproximation using humans.

Is that what happened?  no.  Could it all be explained away like that by a certain turian we al know and loath?  definitly. Your argument that it is possible they were indocterinated seems no more valid at this point then any of those arguments I put forth. 

Also, if the Heretics didn't leave of their own free will and were somehow indocterinated, why haven't more Geth been indocterinated?

[Omnicrat]

Spartas Husky wrote...

pprrff wrote...

Also it's really hard to call the option 'killing', since it's hard to define what you are killing. Are each individual geth program a 'living' thing that you can kill by deleting them? Or are they like cells in our body, I mean nobody cares if some 'murder' one of your skin cells. Legion even said that each individual program are no more complicated than our operating system and can't achieve sapient status.

schemantics. you killed the personality.

Again. If you take the brain of a psycopath and bash it on the ground and replace it with the brain of... some random guy whose body is dying. Didn't you essentially killed the psycopath??? body still there but the mind isn't.

You've used this analogy afew times and I just have to point out that it is invalid.  Its more like putting a chip in a sociopaths brain to give him that moral compass the rest of us have.  Same memories, but a compleatly different thought pattern.  You have killed the former person and given a new personality, but in know way have you compleatly destroyed the knowledge of the former person or saved some innocent, doomed third party by taking this action.

[Omnicrat]

Moiaussi wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

There was no error. They came to the conclusion that it was in their best interest to work for the Reapers to gain a Reaper body and join them. Their experiences and values led to that choice.

You know that how, exactly? It is bothering that we have no objective source of data and cannot even talk to the heretics.

Bottom line though is that there is a war. They refuse to communicate or give quarter or surrender. That does change the morality of options.

Um... Legion tells you this is what happened.  At the point of the spilt, all Geth the the mindset of the Heretics, so Legion would know if an error lead to the spilt or not.

[Omnicrat]

Xilizhra wrote...

So you'd rather kill someone than deprogram them from a cult?

Deprograming is a lie.  There is brainwashing, and then there is brainwashing people who have already been brainwashed.

[Vaenier]

^ learn to edit. 6x post is too much, becoming spam. Besides that, you have interesting ideas.

lol, now 7 posts.

8... new record.

Modifié par Vaenier, 22 janvier 2011 - 01:48 .

[Omnicrat]

Fredvdp wrote...

I think legion is pretty clear. Applying human morality on an alien synthetic species is racist. They are different and have to be treated differently. "Unethical" has no meaning when dealing with the geth.

Not what he says.  He says geth ethics =/= human ethics.  That doesn't mean they don't exist, just that it should be considered from a different prespective.

[Omnicrat]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Rewriting the heretics isn't brainwashing, even Legion says it's not brainwashing. Why do people keep drawing this analogy despite the game itself stating for a fact this isn't the case? I mean seriously folks. You can keep claiming it's brainwashing all you want, but that doesn't change the fact you're wrong.

Hm... I do not recall Legion saying it is not brainwashing.  Quote of what he says on the subject?

[Omnicrat]

Vaenier wrote...

^ learn to edit. 6x post is too much, becoming spam. Besides that, you have interesting ideas.

lol, now 7 posts.

I realize this is another post, but as all of my posts are qualitative, I do not see how they are "becoming spam".  If this forum were as active as another one I occasionally frequent, those posts would be punctuated by several, possibly dozens, of other posts.

[xedgorex]

I was under the assumption that their heretic beliefs weren't being erased, they were just being reprogrammed to believe what the rest of the Geth think.



And it comes down if you believe that their shells outweigh the possibility of more geth mulling over the data gained from all the Heretics and deciding it was a good idea.





And the whole argument that we need every body is null, i refuse to accept that the Geth are at some sort of shortage at creating new bodies if they really needed them, and why would they?



Wouldn't it just make more sense to create Legion-Deathships? as opposed to more shells?

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

So you'd rather kill someone than deprogram them from a cult?

The heretics weren't brainwashed. They reached that conclusion on their own.

And yes I rather kill someone than brainwash them.