106 réponses à ce sujet

[Zeke01231]

I rewrote them because the "normal" geth haven't fought a war in 300 years and they can us the heretics knowledge of weaponry and shipbuilding..tactics etc.. Paragade thinking .

[Nashiktal]

Fredvdp wrote...

I think legion is pretty clear. Applying human morality on an alien synthetic species is racist. They are different and have to be treated differently. "Unethical" has no meaning when dealing with the geth.

As soon as Legion allows shep to make the choice whether to alter or destroy the heretics, Ethics most certainly do apply. 

[Madman123456]

The geth are, or want to be, one mind.

The split of the heretics is like some part of that mind going somewhere else.



I think bioware sees rewriting the geth like some part of a mind beginning to work again after long absence, which would likely traumatize me.

Bioware likely thinks of this like "working a traumatic experience out instead of shutting it out".

It would be like having a traumatic experience and working it out instead of blocking it out.



"Rewriting" and therefore "working it out" would be better if your Mind is human, lest your trauma will eventually resurface.



With the Geth, it probably wouldn't.

[Inverness Moon]

Nashiktal wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

I think legion is pretty clear. Applying human morality on an alien synthetic species is racist. They are different and have to be treated differently. "Unethical" has no meaning when dealing with the geth.

As soon as Legion allows shep to make the choice whether to alter or destroy the heretics, Ethics most certainly do apply. 

Not a chance. Legion allowing Shepard to make that choice doesn't mean its okay for Shepard to apply his human ideals of ethics and morality onto the geth. As Legion said, that is racist. Legion consults Shepard because Shepard has more experience and a perspective that Legion lacks.

[Zavox]

Vaenier wrote...

Because you kill them and replace them with a loyal Geth while not damaging the hardware. The Renegades just kill them and blow up the hardware. Its about what you get at the end after you kill them. Renegades dont take the risk of the platforms going back to helping Reapers. Renegades dont take risks, they end problems right there with a bullet.

What about the Collector Base? Isn't that Renegades taking a risk, instead of ending problems with a 'bullet'? (though.. in this case a bomb [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie])

Rewriting the Geth gives you more Geth to possibly have a larger army to defend against the reapers, which, while risky, gives you an arguably better chance. This is in essence the reasoning you renegades have for keeping the base, taking a risk, but having an arguably better chance.

What gives? You're not being very consistent. Doesn't this imply that Renegades just as much as Paragons, press the paragon or renegade button just because it's paragon or renegade?

(In case anyone is going to pull the Paragons are not consistent either on me, I destroyed the base and the heretics, call me paragade if you want for it )

[Monochrome Wench]

I destroy them. We are at war with them, and even though they are losing it badly, the still continue to fight. Perhaps that is because they think they still have an ace up there sleeve being the virus to turn the rest of the Geth to their side. Regardless, reprogramming them can not be guarenteed to be safe so the only reasonable option is to destroy them. Sure we could just destroy them in conventional warfare, but the opportunity to end it now is way too good of an opportunity to pass up. Its not like its Genocide anyway, Legion says they are but a small fraction of all Geth.

[InvincibleHero]

I had no dilemma for my paragon. It was explained as a math error. Hence, correcting it is the same as giving Prozac or any psychopharm to an equally disturbed human. It corrects a brain chemical imbalance and the rewrite fixed a logic program bug.



The rewritten Geth will still retain their autonmomy much like any other Geth though I doubt as much as Legion has though. He seems to be a special case.



Saving them from themselves is a good deed.

[Omnicrat]

InvincibleHero wrote...

I had no dilemma for my paragon. It was explained as a math error. Hence, correcting it is the same as giving Prozac or any psychopharm to an equally disturbed human. It corrects a brain chemical imbalance and the rewrite fixed a logic program bug.

The rewritten Geth will still retain their autonmomy much like any other Geth though I doubt as much as Legion has though. He seems to be a special case.

Saving them from themselves is a good deed.

It was not a "math error" according to Legion.  It was the equivolent of the Geth saying 1<2 while the Heretics say 2<3.

[pprrff]

I went back and played the sections and I realized that the whole 'brain wash' vs 'killing' completely misses the point. The Paragon vs Renegade is not about that, it's about the whether the heretic can truly be convinced to abandon the Reapers. Paragon choice believes that the virus would work, the heretic will rejoin the true geth, and the together the strengthened geth will be a helpful ally. The Renegade feels the virus may not work as intended, and letting legion reprogram the heretic may come back and bite him in the ass.

Legion plainly states at the beginning and through out the level that reprogramming /= brainwashing, and wiping the heretic doesn't amount to killing. The heretics doesn't represent individuals, they represent a point of view, and in the end either choice destroy that point of view, so wiping them and reprogramming them is morally equivalent, this is not the focus of the paragon/renegade choice. The choice here is whether you want to hope to build strong ally or  play safe inorder to avoid a future enemy.

Modifié par pprrff, 27 janvier 2011 - 08:27 .

[Dean_the_Young]

InvincibleHero wrote...

I had no dilemma for my paragon. It was explained as a math error. Hence, correcting it is the same as giving Prozac or any psychopharm to an equally disturbed human. It corrects a brain chemical imbalance and the rewrite fixed a logic program bug.

...that's the exact opposite of what Legion specifically clarified.

[marshalleck]

My Shepards always destroy them, renegade or not. The heretics reached their conclusion not as an error or via manipulation by Sovereign; they are not a cult, and reprogramming them as I understood it from Legion will only cause them to re-evaluate their position, it's not guaranteed that they will reach a different conclusion. Given that data, and a poor understanding of whether or how human ethics should apply to the geth and little time to debate it, my Shepard chose to accept that the heretics became so by choice. That makes them the enemy, and the base a legitimate military target. It is perhaps regrettable, but destroying them is from my perspective the correct action. Ironically the renegade option in this case is the one that can be said to be more considerate and respectful of cultural, philosophical, and cognitive differences.

Modifié par marshalleck, 27 janvier 2011 - 01:41 .

[PrinceLionheart]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

I think legion is pretty clear. Applying human morality on an alien synthetic species is racist. They are different and have to be treated differently. "Unethical" has no meaning when dealing with the geth.

As soon as Legion allows shep to make the choice whether to alter or destroy the heretics, Ethics most certainly do apply. 

Not a chance. Legion allowing Shepard to make that choice doesn't mean its okay for Shepard to apply his human ideals of ethics and morality onto the geth. As Legion said, that is racist. Legion consults Shepard because Shepard has more experience and a perspective that Legion lacks.

Yes it is, because Legion specifically ask Shep to make the decision because even the True Geth were deadlocked on what the proper decision is. 

[Soahfreako]

what's more humane? Rewriting them so that they may become a stronger race, or completely eradicating them. HMM... Gee I wonder why not killing them off is the good thing?

[STG]

After playing A House Divided again recently I noticed something... strange. Paragon responses throughout the mission are against the rewrite with Shepard usually making a comment that "brainwashing" anyone is wrong. But then when you rewrite them you gain paragon points. What the heck?

[marshalleck]

STG wrote...

After playing A House Divided again recently I noticed something... strange. Paragon responses throughout the mission are against the rewrite with Shepard usually making a comment that "brainwashing" anyone is wrong. But then when you rewrite them you gain paragon points. What the heck?

It has been a while since I played this mission, but I believe there is a revelation along the way that may cause the P/R polarity to flip. Still though I think this is one decision where a binary morality system is wholly inadequate for the task of classifying it.

[Xilizhra]

STG wrote...

After playing A House Divided again recently I noticed something... strange. Paragon responses throughout the mission are against the rewrite with Shepard usually making a comment that "brainwashing" anyone is wrong. But then when you rewrite them you gain paragon points. What the heck?

An editing fluke, in all likelihood. The Paragon "brainwashing is wrong" makes sense, but the Renegade option should be something like "they should all die regardless." Even Paragon Shepard makes the decision to rewrite reluctantly.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

pprrff wrote...

I went back and played the sections and I realized that the whole 'brain wash' vs 'killing' completely misses the point. The Paragon vs Renegade is not about that, it's about the whether the heretic can truly be convinced to abandon the Reapers. Paragon choice believes that the virus would work, the heretic will rejoin the true geth, and the together the strengthened geth will be a helpful ally. The Renegade feels the virus may not work as intended, and letting legion reprogram the heretic may come back and bite him in the ass.

Legion plainly states at the beginning and through out the level that reprogramming /= brainwashing, and wiping the heretic doesn't amount to killing. The heretics doesn't represent individuals, they represent a point of view, and in the end either choice destroy that point of view, so wiping them and reprogramming them is morally equivalent, this is not the focus of the paragon/renegade choice. The choice here is whether you want to hope to build strong ally or  play safe inorder to avoid a future enemy.

Pretty much this and what Marshalleck said.

Whilst there is all the talks of equalling the 'rewrite' as 'brainwashing' the polarity is shifted during the mission when it is revealed that the Heretics pretty much whilst having a re-write could still come to the same conclusion they had before, thus technically it isn't brainwashing.

Technically one way you could look at it is that the rewrite is Paragon/Paragade/Renegon getting the Heretics to see that all life can get along together and that the 'Old Machines' are bad. Whilst Renegade/Renegon/Paragade doesn't want to take the risk that the rewrite will work and so ensures got one less issue to worry about with the Heretics dead.

I've got a mixture amongst my Sheps, some that do rewrite, some that destroy them. Just as I've got some that sent Legion to Cerberus and one Shep who didn't send Legion to Cerberus but didn't activate him either (would've took the choice Jacob offered if given it hehe).

[Legbiter]

My Shepard likes to blow s*** up so BOOM went the heretics.

[Kudara]

I don't see why people think the Heretics had a choice about joining Sovereign once the first contact was made.

Seriously people, the heretics are the only one's that Sovereign got a hold of and let retain their free will?

Did Sovereign let Saren retain his free will? No
Did Sovereign let Benezia retain her free will? No
Would the Krogan they were creating have free will? No
Heck it's not even likely that the Krogan who were working for Saren had their free will if they came into too much contact with that Sovereign. Rana was terrified that she was being indoctrinated.

But for some reason Sovereign left the Heretics alone because their idea of enlightenment is to become the replacements for the Citadel's (mindless) keepers...

I've got a bridge in the desert for sale!

Modifié par Kudara, 27 janvier 2011 - 05:41 .

[pprrff]

If you went back and replay, you will realize that Shepard rewrite the geth because he/she wants to make sure that Heretic won't reach the same conclusion again, not because some respect for other point of view or some particular aversion to reprogramming. And also it is stated the the heretic reached their conclusion based before they separated, whether indoctrination caused the initial split isn't obvious. There are people who followed the reapers voluntarily, like the Shadow broker, he was against Sov in ME1 and only changed in ME2, after the source of indoctrination is gone.

[samuraix87]

isnt there a news report about geth ships clustering somewhere and the alliance ups security in the cluster in case its an attack i usually take that as the heretics going to the true geth

[STG]

Kudara wrote...

I don't see why people think the Heretics had a choice about joining Sovereign once the first contact was made.

Seriously people, the heretics are the only one's that Sovereign got a hold of and let retain their free will?

He approached them. Majority decided to ignore him and follow their own path. Those who didn't were labeled heretics and were allowed to peacefully leave with Sovereign.

If geth didn't have a choice then everyone would join him.

[marshalleck]

Kudara wrote...

I don't see why people think the Heretics had a choice about joining Sovereign once the first contact was made.

Seriously people, the heretics are the only one's that Sovereign got a hold of and let retain their free will?

Did Sovereign let Saren retain his free will? No
Did Sovereign let Benezia retain her free will? No
Would the Krogan they were creating have free will? No
Heck it's not even likely that the Krogan who were working for Saren had their free will if they came into too much contact with that Sovereign. Rana was terrified that she was being indoctrinated.

But for some reason Sovereign left the Heretics alone because their idea of enlightenment is to become the replacements for the Citadel's (mindless) keepers...

I've got a bridge in the desert for sale!

What do Saren, Benezia, the Krogan, and Rana all have in common? They are all organic, and indoctrination only works on organics. In order to influence the geth, Sovereign had to manipulate them by discerning what their aspirations were and exploiting that to its advantage--in the case of the heretics, it promised them a Reaper shell to collectively inhabit. Which was an empty promise, according to Saren. Sovereign intended to use them as tools and abandon them when its work was done. It apparently thought the geth crude, primitive, and found their worshiping it as some sort of god insulting, although useful. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Not to mention that Saren, Benezia, Shiala, and Rana all joined Sovereign (directly or indirectly) voluntarily of their own will. Indoctrination for the first three only came after they had already chosen to join: a firmation, not a start, of loyalties.

[Manic Sheep]

Rewriting the geth is paragon because they don’t seem to be going off the moral implications of “rewriting” sentient beings in this case. The geth are machines an think differently to us, yoiu cannot apply human logic to them (note: I’m not saying rewriting them is right morally it’s just and awkward and complicated issue).

The question seems to be more do you or do you not trust legion and the “true geth”?(im basing this off the dialogue when you make the choice)  Rewriting makes the geth stronger and relies on you trusting legion and also risking the heretics just going back to worshiping the reapers hence the paragon points. Blowing them up weakens the geth and from the dialogue that goes with it is because of fear they will reach the same conclusion again hence the renegade points.

Since the heretics could reach the same conclusion again is it brain washing or more like resetting them? Still killing who they were but not forcing them to your will, more like creating new beings? I’m not quite clear on that. The virus the heretics where going to use would have made “all geth worship the reapers” and I thought the one you use is just the same thing only on the other side of the fence. I suppose it dose change a number in the equation and by doing so changes the outcome of every problem but they still might come to the same conclusion again thru a different method? So brainwashing I gues just not guaranteed to give the result you want?

InvincibleHero wrote...


I had no dilemma for my paragon. It was explained as a math error. Hence, correcting it is the same as giving Prozac or any psychopharm to an equally disturbed human. It corrects a brain chemical imbalance and the rewrite fixed a logic program bug.

 

ARGHHHHH *rage*

Sorry every time I see this it pisses me off. Legion specifically states it is not an error in any way and that the geth understand and respect the heretics logic. They do not consider it “wrong”. It is 2 different conclusions and ways of looking at the same question and both sides are equally valid in their conclusion. Not all questions are so clear cut that they have only a single answer. That’s like saying everyone who doesn’t follow your religion dose so out of a logic error and we should drug them all to make them believe the “right” thing.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 27 janvier 2011 - 10:42 .