157 réponses à ce sujet

[Flamewielder]

Reasons I like Ash as a character:

1) If you're an Alliance Marine, don't kid yourself: you'll be fighting aliens. Best not get too friendly with people you may be forced to fight against... be cautious allies. Ash is there to remind YOU, Commander Shepard N7 Alliance Marine, what you originally signed up for when you accepted that commission.

2) She illustrates culture-shock quite accurately, something many humans in ME likely suffer from. Culture-shock is a well documented subject. Ashley is portraying a "rejector" quite well. It makes the whole notion of humans meeting aliens more believable to see culture shock portrayed in game.

3) While Cerberus may claim to work for the survival of humanity against the Reapers and beyond, their methods are obviously unrestricted by such "mundane" concerns as ethics, morality or compassion for individuals. Ash happens to care about those values, and this offers great dramatic possibilities in ME3, should Gen. Williams turn out to have been involved.

Modifié par Flamewielder, 21 février 2011 - 03:05 .

[Sylvianus]

I don't know how you do always want to categorize people like that , whereas the universe of Mass Effect and Dragon Age, is something infinitely complex, made of gray, especially for the characters.

He is a racist, he is not a racist. Tim is good, no he is evil.

Mordin is not racist, it addresses the problem Krogan, as a scientist, so cold, scientific and logical. Exactly, it does not interfere with the feelings and subjectivity in his thinking. He also regrets what he did, so he turned to spirituality, trying to seek absolution from Omega. Remorse.

The Krogan are naturally turned to aggression, and mingled with their explosive birth rate, it makes them very dangerous people. They razed several Turian worlds  by using the atomic bomb, is enough to justify genophage.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 21 février 2011 - 03:12 .

[Xilizhra]

1) If you're an Alliance Marine, don't kid yourself: you'll be fighting aliens. Best not get too friendly with people you may be forced to fight against... be cautious allies. Ash is there to remind YOU, Commander Shepard N7 Alliance Marine, what you originally signed up for when you accepted that commission.

Your other points make sense. This one... makes less sense. Yes, you'll end up fighting aliens. You'll also probably be fighting humans. Neither one has to do with their species. Yes, the governments and cultures are new; yes, they might come to blows later on. However, it's imperative for us to make that time never come, and reaching out our own hands is very possibly a good way to do that.

As for fighting aliens... as a Spectre, I don't know what my Shepard would do if the Alliance tried to attack the Council, or vice versa. Well, actually, I do; she'd (reluctantly) side with the Council, unless they were very obviously in the wrong.

[Zulu_DFA]

Alrigh, trying to put the thread back on track,



Did Ashley meet her Granpa even once in person? AFAIK, there has been no indication of it.

[FaargAnNorgnal]

Xilizhra wrote...

Your other points make sense. This one... makes less sense. Yes, you'll end up fighting aliens. You'll also probably be fighting humans. Neither one has to do with their species. Yes, the governments and cultures are new; yes, they might come to blows later on. However, it's imperative for us to make that time never come, and reaching out our own hands is very possibly a good way to do that.

Yes, of-course, but that doesn't mean we should trust them. Make no mistake, none of the alien governments have the best interests of humanity in mind. All we can hope for is that there interests include ours as a matter of convenience. That is how politics works.

Ashley's views on aliens and the Council in particular are spot-on accurate.

[Urazz]

FaargAnNorgnal wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Your other points make sense. This one... makes less sense. Yes, you'll end up fighting aliens. You'll also probably be fighting humans. Neither one has to do with their species. Yes, the governments and cultures are new; yes, they might come to blows later on. However, it's imperative for us to make that time never come, and reaching out our own hands is very possibly a good way to do that.

Yes, of-course, but that doesn't mean we should trust them. Make no mistake, none of the alien governments have the best interests of humanity in mind. All we can hope for is that there interests include ours as a matter of convenience. That is how politics works.

Ashley's views on aliens and the Council in particular are spot-on accurate.

For politics, yes Ashley's views are accurate.  But as soldiers, spectres, C-Sec, etc. they aren't really supposed to be worried about politics really.

[Xilizhra]

They're accurate about governments; I don't think politicians are usually trustworthy in general. I see no reason not to trust individuals of other species, though.

[FaargAnNorgnal]

Xilizhra wrote...

They're accurate about governments; I don't think politicians are usually trustworthy in general. I see no reason not to trust individuals of other species, though.

In general? There is no reason to treat your average turian any different from your average human. However on a state of the art human warship that utilized classified technology you have ever reason to restrict the wrong people from accessing its sensitive areas. That goes for turians and quarians, and it even goes for humans. It was extremely reckless of Shepard to allow Garrus, Wrex, and Tali (and Liara) access to any of the Normandy's sensitive areas. Particularly in Tali's case. However it would be just as reckless to invite a random human engineer who is not a member of the Alliance or who does not have Top Secret clearance to do the same.

If someone with the right skills and knowledge gets a look at the Normandy they can take that information and sell it to a third party. That group can then reproduce the technology, robbing the Alliance both of money (the credits spent creating the Normandy) and the strategic advantages gained by inventing the Normandy. It would be a terrible blow for the Systems Alliance.

[JediNg]

Elite Midget wrote...

JediNg wrote...


Okay.  Still haven't changed my mind.

I didn't come here to change your mind. Like I said, you're a close minded fanboy that instantly decided to falsely label Ashley as a racist even though, if you had even bothered to talk to her, you would know that she isn't. Hell, Renegade Shepard can be far more racist than any of the Squaddies and that's a longshot. Especially considering that Tali(All Geth are Evil and must be DESTROYED AND EXPERIMENTED ON!!!) ande Mordin(Krogan Scientist? Hah! Genophage and mountains of dead baby Krogan? Too bad! All needed! No other way! They must deal with a constantly flow of dead babies!) are the most racist Squaddies to ever join Shepard.

Still trying to change my mind.  Still haven't changed it.  Thanks for trying to though.

[Xilizhra]

The turians already know what the Normandy has, Wrex is an apolitical mercenary, and Tali is a representative of a total nonentity in political terms. The risk really isn't that high. Now, a salarian STG member... that could be a problem.

As for selling its secrets... Tali and Liara have no experience with that kind of life (Tali could theoretically be a spy, except we see her extreme naivite when it comes to the underworld by trying to meet the Shadow Broker in person), and Garrus is far too honorable; it'd be a blow to his own people too. The only potential problem is Wrex, but when did he ever see anything sensitive?



Also, I think that team cohesion for the purposes of stopping Saren is more important than worrying about the small espionage risk. Hence my treating my crew members well. I see it as a Council ship right now anyway.

[FaargAnNorgnal]

Xilizhra wrote...

The turians already know what the Normandy has, Wrex is an apolitical mercenary, and Tali is a representative of a total nonentity in political terms.

None of that matters and might not even be true. Whether or not the turian military knows all the design specs for the Normandy is irrelevant. Even assuming they do my argument still stands. You don't give free access to sensitive information to random people off the street be they citiziens of your country or not. I am an American but if I snuck an unauthorized peak at Top Secret information I could go to prison for it. If I tresspassed on a military base I could be similarly arrested. According to you that shouldn't be the case because I am an American and I already know all those secrets, right? Now do you see how absurd you sound advocating this?

Of-course we don't know if what you said is true. How much the turians know about the Normandy is unknown. All we know is they designed at least the layout of the ship. However humans spent the most money on it and humans own it. It is also worth noting that the Normandy's capabilities are more in line with human military doctrine. The turians aren't known for being innovators but the humans are. The Normandy is a huge innovation unrivaled by any other technology in the galaxy. It is a game changer.

Moving on I agree that Wrex is an unlikely intelligence leak, but I still would not take the risk. Careless is dangerous. Tali however is a huge risk. She has the skills and knowledge to reverse engineer the technology at work in the Normandy. Worse yet, she has the motivation to sell that knowledge to someone else, which as I pointed out robs the Systems Alliance of all the money they spent on the project and the strategic advantages it grants them. What if, Tali decided to sell this information to a private company for a boat-load of credits or exclusive contracts to help the Migrant Fleet? My point is she could do it to help her people. Now we know from ME2 that Tali never did do this but when she is first recruited in ME1 Shepard can't know this. It was dangerous to leave her in there, for humanity and for Tali. After all, if word gets out she was on the Normandy she might become a target of any group wanting to undermine the Systems Alliance. They might abduct and interrogate her to find out what she knows about the ship. It would have been better for everyone to have her banned from the engine room.

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, I think that team cohesion for the purposes of stopping Saren is more important than worrying about the small espionage risk. Hence my treating my crew members well. I see it as a Council ship right now anyway.

Whether you see it as a Council ship or not is irrelevant. The Council spent money on this vessel too and I doubt they want the secrets getting out either. If the secrets get out everyone loses a lot of money and you have a diplomatic incident on your hands. The Systems Alliance would be loath to ever trust the Council again because they'd know it couldn't keep secrets. Secondly, I don't see how group cohesion would be hurt. If the non-Alliance crew don't like it they can leave. They are entitled to nothing and if they are so short sighted selfish that they can't understand my security concerns then I don't want them on my team anyway.

I have no use for stupid people in such an important battle.

[Xilizhra]

None of that matters and might not even be true. Whether or not the turian military knows all the design specs for the Normandy is irrelevant. Even assuming they do my argument still stands. You don't give free access to sensitive information to random people off the street be they citiziens of your country or not. I am an American but if I snuck an unauthorized peak at Top Secret information I could go to prison for it. If I tresspassed on a military base I could be similarly arrested. According to you that shouldn't be the case because I am an American and I already know all those secrets, right? Now do you see how absurd you sound advocating this?

C-SEC is practically a branch of the Citadel military by itself, and Garrus has a fairly high position in it. I think that he's proven himself legally trustworthy to his own people by now.

It would have been better for everyone to have her banned from the engine room.

Didn't she help upgrade the thing a lot? It's possible that without her help, the Normandy wouldn't have survived the Battle of the Citadel. As for the rest of your post... I don't think the risk is as much as you say, but it's a matter of opinion.

Whether you see it as a Council ship or not is irrelevant. The Council spent money on this vessel too and I doubt they want the secrets getting out either.

The Council never complains about non-Council crew being on board; I think they realize that the risks aren't big enough to raise a fuss about. In addition, the turian Councilor mentions "proper security precautions;" they were probably too dull to sit through, but I think that there are countermeasures already in place to prevent security leaks.

[FaargAnNorgnal]

Xilizhra wrote...

C-SEC is practically a branch of the Citadel military by itself, and Garrus has a fairly high position in it. I think that he's proven himself legally trustworthy to his own people by now.

To his own people, yes, but we are not his people. The Normandy is an Alliance ship, not a turian one. Frankkly though, I'm not even impressed by his affiliation with C-Sec. Remember that Harkin was a C-Sec officer too. The only people who should be trusted with the Normany'd secrets are sworn Alliance personnel, people who have been granted that trust because of their dedication to the Alliance and their reliability.

Xilizhra wrote...

Didn't she help upgrade the thing a lot?

There is no indication of that what-so-ever. Engineer Adams was impressed by her ability, but there is no proof she was at all necessary for the Normandy to succeed. Beyond plot-armor on missions, anyway. The only non-Alliance team member who was vital was Liara.

Honestly, I'm partly on the same page with you about Garrus, Wrex, and Liara. Though I do think they are risks, I think they are small risks compared to Tali. Tali is the real threat because of her expertise and potential motivations.

Xilizhra wrote...

The Council never complains about non-Council crew being on board; I think they realize that the risks aren't big enough to raise a fuss about.

I would argue that it's because they don't mind if the Normandy's secrets get out. Probably becuase they don't know how the Normandy works but they'd like to find out. Anything which weakens the Alliance benefits the Council. That's probably why they did nothing when batarians, geth, and Collectors threatened human colonies. Though I'm speculating on this...

The fact is we don't really interact with the Council much at all. Who knows what they are saying behind closed doors. There is a lot that they say, but not to your face. If you talk to Udina after each plot mission you will see what the Council really thinks of you.

If you killed the rachni queen they accuse you of genocide. If you set her free they accuse you of being reckless.

They are angry at you for allowing the Prothean ruins on Therum be destroyed.

Curiously, you are chastized if you save the Feros colony. (quite telling)

After Virmire they begin to question your sanity. That indicates that they're a least having second thoughts about making you a Spectre. Good thing Udina is there defending you the whole time, eh?

Note: You need to do Virmire as soon as possible and then return to the Citadel to find this out. If you do Virmire last, as most do, you'll of-course skip straight to the Council meeting.

[Xilizhra]

To his own people, yes, but we are not his people. The Normandy is an Alliance ship, not a turian one. Frankkly though, I'm not even impressed by his affiliation with C-Sec. Remember that Harkin was a C-Sec officer too. The only people who should be trusted with the Normany'd secrets are sworn Alliance personnel, people who have been granted that trust because of their dedication to the Alliance and their reliability.

And now it is a Council ship, and in any case, I see everyone as "my people."

There is no indication of that what-so-ever. Engineer Adams was impressed by her ability, but there is no proof she was at all necessary for the Normandy to succeed. Beyond plot-armor on missions, anyway. The only non-Alliance team member who was vital was Liara.

True, but she was definitely doing something in there, unless we prefer to think of all the squadmates as just standing in one spot for the whole time of their travels.

I would argue that it's because they don't mind if the Normandy's secrets get out. Probably becuase they don't know how the Normandy works but they'd like to find out. Anything which weakens the Alliance benefits the Council. That's probably why they did nothing when batarians, geth, and Collectors threatened human colonies. Though I'm speculating on this...

The Alliance is quite important to the Council. They're a potential counterweight if the turians get out of hand. They're a buffer against the batarians, whom I think the Council was rather glad to get rid of. They have an innovation-friendly culture. It's simply that the Council refuses to do anything that might provoke galactic war.

The fact is we don't really interact with the Council much at all. Who knows what they are saying behind closed doors. There is a lot that they say, but not to your face. If you talk to Udina after each plot mission you will see what the Council really thinks of you.



If you killed the rachni queen they accuse you of genocide. If you set her free they accuse you of being reckless.



They are angry at you for allowing the Prothean ruins on Therum be destroyed.



Curiously, you are chastized if you save the Feros colony. (quite telling)

Um... they said all of that to my face on the Normandy. Also, I think the turian Councilor's job is to be contrary, to test Shepard's responses; additionally, keeping the colony alive was a risk, albeit a small one.

[FaargAnNorgnal]

Xilizhra wrote...

And now it is a Council ship, and in any case, I see everyone as "my people."

No, it is an Alliance ship staffed by Alliance personnel being paid wages by the Alliance. You are just borrowing it. If the Alliance wants to take the ship back, they can. In fact, they eventually do.

Xilizhra wrote...

The Alliance is quite important to the Council. They're a potential counterweight if the turians get out of hand. They're a buffer against the batarians, whom I think the Council was rather glad to get rid of. They have an innovation-friendly culture. It's simply that the Council refuses to do anything that might provoke galactic war.

Every good trait the Alliance posses also makes them a threat. The Alliance is strong and fiercely independent. The Coucnil doesn't like that. They want a race that they can control. Ultimately they'd prefer if the Alliance never joined the Council at all. Three is company, but four is a crowd. However if they must accept humans on the Council they'd rather those humans be a lot more passive.

[Xilizhra]

No, it is an Alliance ship staffed by Alliance personnel being paid wages by the Alliance. You are just borrowing it. If the Alliance wants to take the ship back, they can. In fact, they eventually do.

Only with the Council's backing. The Alliance could never have grounded the Normandy on its own.

Every good trait the Alliance posses also makes them a threat. The Alliance is strong and fiercely independent. The Coucnil doesn't like that. They want a race that they can control. Ultimately they'd prefer if the Alliance never joined the Council at all. Three is company, but four is a crowd. However if they must accept humans on the Council they'd rather those humans be a lot more passive.

The independence of the Alliance is a bit of a problem, I admit; it's also a problem for the Alliance itself, because it makes integrating with the Council harder and thus makes it harder for the Alliance to raise its own position.

[FaargAnNorgnal]

Xilizhra wrote...

Only with the Council's backing. The Alliance could never have grounded the Normandy on its own.

Oh, sure they could have. Though if the Council didn't approve they wouldn't be earning any brownie points and would be damaging relations.

Xilizhra wrote...

The independence of the Alliance is a bit of a problem, I admit; it's also a problem for the Alliance itself, because it makes integrating with the Council harder and thus makes it harder for the Alliance to raise its own position.

I think you have it backwards. If not for the Alliance's fierce independence they'd have never been considered for a Council seat in the first place. The volus, eclor, and hanar are willing and eager to join the galactic community. What has it gained them?

To earn your place on the Council have to break their rules.

[Xilizhra]

Oh, sure they could have. Though if the Council didn't approve they wouldn't be earning any brownie points and would be damaging relations.

The Council could have overridden any docking controls that Udina set up if they wanted Shepard to leave.

I think you have it backwards. If not for the Alliance's fierce independence they'd have never been considered for a Council seat in the first place. The volus, eclor, and hanar are willing and eager to join the galactic community. What has it gained them?

When have any of them been involved in saving the galaxy from an enormous war? That's how the turians got in, and apparently how the humans did too.

[Zulu_DFA]

[mistaken post]

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 22 février 2011 - 03:45 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Only with the Council's backing. The Alliance could never have grounded the Normandy on its own.

Citation needed.

The Normandy isn't Shepard's ship. The Normandy is the Alliance's ship, loaned to Shepard. It's their toy, not Shepard's: the Council never stopped Shepard from doing anything, while there's nothing really against the Alliance not continuing to provide aid of that sort to Shepard.

The independence of the Alliance is a bit of a problem, I admit; it's also a problem for the Alliance itself, because it makes integrating with the Council harder and thus makes it harder for the Alliance to raise its own position.

Hence the Anderson-acknowledged paradox: if you did what the Council wanted, there wouldn't be much benefit in it.

[Xilizhra]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Only with the Council's backing. The Alliance could never have grounded the Normandy on its own.

What makes you think so?

Citadel Control can override Udina's lockdown.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's a technical mechanic of a docking system, not political influence. Besides which, the Normandy's dock is 'owned' by the Alliance.



It's like an airport, except one in which the plane is locked in the hanger. The Council owns the Control Tower, but the plane, the hanger, and the lock are designated for the Alliance.

[Zulu_DFA]

Xilizhra wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Only with the Council's backing. The Alliance could never have grounded the Normandy on its own.

What makes you think so?

Citadel Control can override Udina's lockdown.

Sorry my mistake. I actually think that Udina had no say in grounding the Normandy, except his compliance with the Council's decision prevented her from being impounded.

[Xilizhra]

Doesn't the Council own the entire Citadel? And I see no reason why they couldn't have forced Shepard into being able to leave even if Udina objected (I don't think Udina would have even tried without the Council behind him).

[FaargAnNorgnal]

Xilizhra wrote...

The Council could have overridden any docking controls that Udina set up if they wanted Shepard to leave.

A technicality. The Council stealing an Alliance ship would be tentamount to war. In any case, just because Citadel Control has the physical means of overriding the Normandy lockdown does not mean they have the legal means. By your definition I could override your decision not to drive your car by stealing your keys and driving it myself.

Xilizhra wrote...

When have any of them been involved in saving the galaxy from an enormous war?

What is necessary to win a war of that magnitude?

Answer: a formidable war machine.

What is for all intents and purpose outlawed by the Council for non-Council races?

Answer: a formidable war machine.