480 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...

In Exile wrote...
No. Based on the contract terms (the EULA) EA would be within their rights to terminate their license to you at that point. Whether or not this would stand up in court is a different issue. It depends on how software is treated as IP.

Thank you for specifying that. Probability of me not buying DA][ has now increased to >95%.

Why are you drawing the line with this game?  EULAs have been saying precisely that for years.

In Exile wrote...

Now, I'm not sure whether or not a EULA would stand up to a court challenge or not.

Indeed, I'm not aware of it having been challenged yet. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 janvier 2011 - 09:47 .

[s0meguy6665]

it's funny, the only people that are inconvenienced by the DRM are people that actually buy the game

[Maconbar]

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

imkaoo wrote...

Terrible move. EA should take an example from The Witcher's team, who is going to not put any DRM on The Witcher 2. I hope it (TW2) sells well and shows other companies how it should be done!

No DRM only applies to the ones CDProjekt are distributing themselves, which I believe is retail and Gog.com. The Steam, Impulse and (I believe) GamersGate & Direct2Drive editions will all be subject to the relevant protections.

Another example of how CDP is s****ing on Steam players.

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

In Exile wrote...
No. Based on the contract terms (the EULA) EA would be within their rights to terminate their license to you at that point. Whether or not this would stand up in court is a different issue. It depends on how software is treated as IP.

Thank you for specifying that. Probability of me not buying DA][ has now increased to >95%.

Why are you drawing the line with this game?  EULAs have been saying precisely that for years.

I drew the line with the concept, not this game. You'll be hard pressed to find a game that fits this model in my collection.

(as an example, if Blizzard dies off, thought it probably wont unless it chooses to, I'll still be able to play my old copy of Starcraft. If BioWare dissapears I'll still be able to play my old copy of NWN. If CDP goes bankrupt I'll still be able to play my copy of The Witcher)

Modifié par the_one_54321, 21 janvier 2011 - 09:49 .

[Connect]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Lol. you must be joking. Play much on pc?

Primarily on PC.  Never had a serious issue with any DRM in any game.  

The
"worst" I've dealt with is having to email Direct2Drive for additional
unlock codes, and I'd hear back within 48 hours and be back to playing.

It's one thing to have online activations on a game you PURCHASE AND DOWNLOAD online, since you do need to be online to... you know, DOWNLOAD IT. But it's an entire different story when you enter a store, buy a disc and just want to go and play on vacation or whatever and you find out you need accounts, online activations, authetications, possible periodic re-authentications and all that crap. For a retail product. I repeat, a RETAIL product.

the_one_54321 wrote...

For some people it does. In other
cases there have been instances of DRM literally hijacking your computer
to try and make sure you can't even access the kinds of programs that
fascilitate piracy. I am against piracy, but if your software will
hijack my computer then I will not be installing it and you can take
your game and shove it. (I'm not implying that this is the case for this
game in particular, just that it has occured in the past)

I've
never had that personal experience with DRM.  Could possibly just be
that lack of experience that makes me unable to understand OP's anger.

However, the DRM setup for DA2 he describes doesn't claim to do anything of the sort, does it?

Actually, it's the exact sort of thing that the DRM claims to do. At least I have read the EULA. I'm going to quote from it FOR THE SECOND TIME, because you somehow missed my previous post:

The
technical protection measures of this Software may interfere with
certain applications, such as debuggers, when such software could
potentially be used to circumvent the access-control technology as
prohibited by the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

There was no such problem with the disc checks. And I still haven't found out why they didn't use the same DRM from Dragon Age Origins and Mass Effect 2, which was flawless and awesome and worked perfectly. Just to annoy the customers? To have more control over us? To "get with the times"?

If a company doesn't have the least amount of respect and trust for me, why should I trust THEM with my money?

Modifié par Connect, 21 janvier 2011 - 09:48 .

[Count Viceroy]

s0meguy6665 wrote...

it's funny, the only people that are inconvenienced by the DRM are people that actually buy the game

Indeed.

[JrayM16]

I typically don't mind pirates too much(I'm not one myself) but I get pretty annoyed with the ones who try to justify it as if they're on the moral high ground. That kind of attitude kinda offends me.



As for DRM, I think there needs to be a better way. Digital piracy has existed since the dawn of the internet, yet we're only now seeing a really push back against piracy by publishers. That's not to say piracy isn't a problem. I think more people pirated Crysis than bought it, which was a shame as that dev barely survived the loss from that game's poor sales.

[In Exile]

the_one_54321 wrote...
Thank you for specifying that. Probability of me not buying DA][ has now increased to >95%.

Well, it's more complicated than that. Basically, I have no idea how EA would act if they actually terminate every license. That would be like a product recall - it would mean quite literally that DA2 is no longer being sold or used as a product. It couldn't be.

I'm just saying, that if they wanted to, EA could refuse you use of the software at any time without violating the terms of the contract. This is how they could try to legally justify no longer supporting the game you own, because they've never technically sold you the game at any point. You bought the right to use it.

Your specific question isn't part of the terms of your contract with EA.

[AlanC9]

the_one_54321 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
Wait a minute. I thought the knock on DRM was that it doesn't stop piracy. Now DRM can stop everyone from playing in the future. How can both of these be true simultaneously?

Because they aren't simultaneous. Piracy happens now. The inability to play the game comes if/when the company is no longer around to support it. Though of course one of the draws of the pirates is that they don't have to worry about that eventuality. Which also makes them work simultaneously, if you consider it.

That's the point. If the game can be pirated now it will be piratable in the future, whether the company goes bust or not. It's not possible for DRM to cause the future problem unless it really does work in the present.

Modifié par AlanC9, 21 janvier 2011 - 09:50 .

[upsettingshorts]

Connect wrote...

Actually, it's the exact sort of thing that the DRM claims to do. At least I have read the EULA. I'm going to quote from it FOR THE SECOND TIME, because you somehow missed my previous post:

Seems to me it's referring to things like trainers or fixed EXEs.  It specifies things that would be used to circumvent access control (DRM) which is prohibited by the DMCA.  It doesn't say it will actively prevent any program with the potential for violating the entire DMCA (such as say, Torrent software) from functioning.

Don't get me wrong, if DA2's DRM turns out to actively interfere with completely unrelated software I'll be right there with you.  But until it does, I'm not going to assume it does because I don't like the idea of DRM.

Connect wrote...

If a company doesn't have the least amount of respect and trust for me, why should I trust THEM with my money?

If that's the way you look at it then don't buy the game.  And if you're really principled, don't pirate it either.  That would be sending a mixed message.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 janvier 2011 - 09:51 .

[Papa Emeritus IV]

edit: Sorry, totally offtopic.

Modifié par Lt. Bloom, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:38 .

[imkaoo]

Maconbar wrote...

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

imkaoo wrote...

Terrible move. EA should take an example from The Witcher's team, who is going to not put any DRM on The Witcher 2. I hope it (TW2) sells well and shows other companies how it should be done!

No DRM only applies to the ones CDProjekt are distributing themselves, which I believe is retail and Gog.com. The Steam, Impulse and (I believe) GamersGate & Direct2Drive editions will all be subject to the relevant protections.

Another example of how CDP is s****ing on Steam players.

You have to understand one thing - actually it is NOT CDP's fault. CDP representatives stated clearly (and I've actually been present in person at their conference) that they WANT to publish this game DRM free wherever they can, but there are powers beyond them, which they have no influence on. So, Steam etc. editions - if they have DRM, it is not because of CDP, but because of Steam themselves who don't want sell games there unprotected.

[In Exile]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Indeed, I'm not aware of it having been challenged yet. 

IP isn't my thing. Personally, it sounds sketchy. I think it's partly a question of IP. The problem with legal recourse here is that you aren't really accusing EA of breaching their contract if they cut service with you, you're essentially going to argue that the terms were unlawful and you were in no position to negotiate them.

It seems messy to me, and until next year I am still at the stage the law is an interest versus a legitimate area of study.

[the_one_54321]

Connect wrote...
Actually, it's the exact sort of thing that the DRM claims to do. At least I have read the EULA. I'm going to quote from it

The technical protection measures of this Software may interfere with certain applications, such as debuggers, when such software could potentially be used to circumvent the access-control technology as prohibited by the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

Wow. Probability of me not buying DA][ now at >98%.

[the_one_54321]

AlanC9 wrote...
That's the point. If the game can be pirated now it will be piratable in the future, whether the company goes bust or not. It's not possible for DRM to cause the future problem unless it really does work in the present.

Well in that eventuality maybe I'll feel justified in illegally playing the game. If the owner of the game no longer exists there can't be any theft, after all.

[Shadow Warior]

JrayM16 wrote...

I typically don't mind pirates too much(I'm not one myself) but I get pretty annoyed with the ones who try to justify it as if they're on the moral high ground. That kind of attitude kinda offends me.

As for DRM, I think there needs to be a better way. Digital piracy has existed since the dawn of the internet, yet we're only now seeing a really push back against piracy by publishers. That's not to say piracy isn't a problem. I think more people pirated Crysis than bought it, which was a shame as that dev barely survived the loss from that game's poor sales.

A true fan would always buy the game

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Well in that eventuality maybe I'll feel justified in illegally playing the game. If the owner of the game no longer exists there can't be any theft, after all.

Origin Systems Inc no longer exists, but the rights to Wing Commander are owned by Electronic Arts.  If the latter started to get into financial trouble they could sell off those assets - including IPs - to other companies, who would then own them, and it would still be piracy.

Public domain games by their nature can't be pirated, but that's kind of the limit of that train of thought.

[Maria Caliban]

In Exile wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Thank you for specifying that. Probability of me not buying DA][ has now increased to >95%.

Well, it's more complicated than that. Basically, I have no idea how EA would act if they actually terminate every license. That would be like a product recall - it would mean quite literally that DA2 is no longer being sold or used as a product. It couldn't be.

I'm just saying, that if they wanted to, EA could refuse you use of the software at any time without violating the terms of the contract. This is how they could try to legally justify no longer supporting the game you own, because they've never technically sold you the game at any point. You bought the right to use it.

Your specific question isn't part of the terms of your contract with EA.

I think the reason people hate lawyers is that they tell you the way the world actually works instead of the situation a person has come to accept.

[In Exile]

the_one_54321 wrote...
Well in that eventuality maybe I'll feel justified in illegally playing the game. If the owner of the game no longer exists there can't be any theft, after all.

That's not what would happen, legally. EA would claim they still own the IP - it is their property. They never sold the IP to you, just terminated the license. Using the game without a license is violates their IP rights, so they'd likely argue they could go after you like any one who pirates a game.

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Origin Systems Inc no longer exists, but the rights to Wing Commander are owned by Electronic Arts.  If the latter started to get into financial trouble they could sell off those assets - including IPs - to other companies, who would then own them, and it would still be piracy.

Public domain games by their nature can't be pirated, but that's kind of the limit of that train of thought.

Well that's assuming that have some intent to distribute and thus protect the "property." Or maybe they bouth the rights because they feel like randomny hunting down and prosecuting ROM users...

[the_one_54321]

In Exile wrote...
That's not what would happen, legally. EA would claim they still own the IP - it is their property. They never sold the IP to you, just terminated the license. Using the game without a license is violates their IP rights, so they'd likely argue they could go after you like any one who pirates a game.

Granted, but as I mentioned above, that's assuming they have any kind of motivation to do so.

[Maconbar]

imkaoo wrote...

Maconbar wrote...

OnlyShallow89 wrote...

imkaoo wrote...

Terrible move. EA should take an example from The Witcher's team, who is going to not put any DRM on The Witcher 2. I hope it (TW2) sells well and shows other companies how it should be done!

No DRM only applies to the ones CDProjekt are distributing themselves, which I believe is retail and Gog.com. The Steam, Impulse and (I believe) GamersGate & Direct2Drive editions will all be subject to the relevant protections.

Another example of how CDP is s****ing on Steam players.

You have to understand one thing - actually it is NOT CDP's fault. CDP representatives stated clearly (and I've actually been present in person at their conference) that they WANT to publish this game DRM free wherever they can, but there are powers beyond them, which they have no influence on. So, Steam etc. editions - if they have DRM, it is not because of CDP, but because of Steam themselves who don't want sell games there unprotected.

I was just joking.

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Well that's assuming that have some intent to distribute and thus protect the "property." Or maybe they bouth the rights because they feel like randomny hunting down and prosecuting ROM users...

They don't have to have an intent to sell legally for it to still be piracy.  They're free to hoard assets, I'm pretty sure, within IP law.  I mean, you could take a calculated risk by pirating games no longer being actively sold - but they'd be just as within their legal rights to take action against you for that as they would a new release.

Maria Caliban wrote...

I think the reason people hate lawyers is that they tell you the way the world actually works instead of the situation a person has come to accept.

If I "hate" lawyers it is because they have made the law so incomprehensible that only they can understand it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:01 .

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Well that's assuming that have some intent to distribute and thus protect the "property." Or maybe they bouth the rights because they feel like randomny hunting down and prosecuting ROM users...

They don't have to have an intent to sell legally for it to still be piracy.  They're free to hoard assets, I'm pretty sure, within IP law.  I mean, you could take a calculated risk by pirating games no longer being actively sold - but they'd be just as within their legal rights to take action against you for that as they would a new release.

I wasn't contradicting you. Just pointing out that if the actual people involved have no motivation to actively persue the issue then there is effectively no issue.

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Well in that eventuality maybe I'll feel justified in illegally playing the game. If the owner of the game no longer exists there can't be any theft, after all.

That's not what would happen, legally. EA would claim they still own the IP - it is their property. They never sold the IP to you, just terminated the license. Using the game without a license is violates their IP rights, so they'd likely argue they could go after you like any one who pirates a game.

I believe he's talking about moral justification, not legal. I've got a tough time seeing anything wrong with abandonware myself.