42 réponses à ce sujet

[zeroangel]

So it seems to me with the SoZ crafting system, having a party of Archers just seems to break the game. I got the idea running through SoZ and now LoWPM. On my next run through of either (or maybe I'll try another mod) I am thinking of going with a party of elves all with levels of Arcane Archer.

I use the crafting system and make myself a bunch of magical bows with two kinds of elemental damage and an enhancement bonus. Then I make a bunch of arrows with 3 different kinds of elemental damage. When its all said and done, I've got my characters doing more than 6d6 damage PER ATTACK! Sure, it's expensive, but money isn't an issue in SoZ.

Anyone have any other ideas? Is there anything better than going with archers?

Thanks!

Modifié par zeroangel, 21 janvier 2011 - 09:03 .

[The Fred]

Well, you can get those bonuses on melee weapons, too, and a big strength bonus to boot. Of course, with Might bows and Point Blank Shot, archers can be effective, but I think the general consensus is that melee rule in NWN2 - at least in the main campaigns where the battles don't lend themselves to ranged tactics (certain community-made modules, such as Last of the Danaan, are supposed to be a lot better for this).

[zeroangel]

Well, you can only get three enchantments on one melee weapon whereas you can enchant both the missile launcher (bow) and missiles (arrows) each three times. All told, you can have a melee weapon that does something like 3d6 per attack, or the missile weapon that does 6d6 per attack. Correct? Or have I missed something?

Seems to me that missile is twice as powerful. I mean, how much strength bonus are you thinking of?

Modifié par zeroangel, 21 janvier 2011 - 10:05 .

[painofdungeoneternal]

enchanting and crafted items really break the game, good if you are having trouble and think the game is too hard, but if you know how to play and want a challenge just avoid any enchanting.



Archers compared to melee, despite the extra enchants, really don't work that well. ( Don't even get into casters lol )



If you want a more balanced game, you should go on a PW or look at a community module, or skip ahead to one of the later expansions ( even look at getting MOW ). The OC is more of a good story with lots of movies you can watch, and designed to challenge the person who has no idea what hit dice and AB are to begin with.

[zeroangel]

Archers compared to melee, despite the extra enchants, really don't work that well. ( Don't even get into casters lol )

OK, I don't doubt you, but WHY exactly? What am I doing wrong with my melee characters? What about melee characters offset the fact that they can only have 3 enchants compared to the archers 6?

Also, what about casters? I've built a few that can really pack a punch and at epic levels, "Vampiric Feast" really seems to pwn. I've used it to kill things that would otherwise be a pain in the butt to get around their protections and immunities. Are you saying that casters aren't any good?

[manageri]

You should consider dual wielding if you want an easier comparison to melee, though twohander wielders can dish out ridicilous damage too without even needing all those enchantments. I played a cleric/frenzied berserker a while back that was doing almost 200 damage scythe crits at around level 13 with a +3 weapon that had only a few points of elemental damage (which doesn't even get multiplied on crits so almost all of that was physical). Arcane Archers can be great too but I don't think they're more powerful, I find them most handy for giving enemy mages a faceful of manyshot at the start of the fight which often disrupts their spell and ensures they're dead within two rounds.



The real problem of course is that both the mods you mentioned are pretty pathetic in difficulty (especially LoWPM), and also as painofdungeoneternal mentioned the enchanting system is utterly ridicilous. Whoever decided 3d6 elemental damage on weapons by level friggin six is a great idea should be fired.

[kamal_]

iirc, elemental enchantments on bows do not pass through, only the + bonus. So only the arrow elemental enchantment will work. (Someone will correct me if I'm wrong)

[manageri]

kamal_ wrote...



iirc, elemental enchantments on bows do not pass through, only the + bonus. So only the arrow elemental enchantment will work. (Someone will correct me if I'm wrong)

Nah, it does work on bows too. There's a mysterious shortage of such bows in the OC so maybe that was the case in an earlier version, or maybe someone who's not as massive a tool as the guy who designed enchanting recipes was in charge of making ranged weapons.

[zeroangel]

I played a cleric/frenzied berserker a while back that was doing almost 200 damage scythe crits at around level 13 with a +3 weapon

How did you accomplish this?

By my math: 

2d4 * 4 (base damage) + 9 * 4 (fromStr 29, assuming 23 max strength you could have at lvl13 with frenzy) + 20 * 4 (Enhanced and Improved Power Attack) + 3 * 4 (wpn enhancement)

That comes to (assuming you get the max with the base damage):

8*4 + 9*4 + 20*4 + 3*4 =
32 + 36 + 80 + 12 =
160

That's still rather short of 200. Did I miss something?

Modifié par zeroangel, 22 janvier 2011 - 01:30 .

[zeroangel]

The real problem of course is that both the mods you mentioned are pretty pathetic in difficulty (especially LoWPM)

Any suggestions? I've played:

The OC
MoTB
Soz
Keep on the Borderlands
Moonshadows
Pool of Radiance
The Sublety of Thay
Tragedy in Tragidor
Trial and Terror
Trinity
and now: The Legacy of White Plume Mountain

I prefer a mod that is based in the forgotten realms and one where you can use the SoZ party selection. Thank you!

Modifié par zeroangel, 22 janvier 2011 - 01:30 .

[Arkalezth]

There are looots of mods. If you like SoZ features, you can take a look at Dorateen's modules: The Halls of Hamhock and Edinmooor.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 22 janvier 2011 - 02:08 .

[manageri]

zeroangel wrote...
That's still rather short of 200. Did I miss something?

I don't remember everything that might have contributed but a few big ones would be +6 STR from divine power and I had fixed rage and frenzy to stack, and divine favor does get multiplied on crits so that's +12 damage. I remember 190+ hits many times so it wasn't far at all from 200. I could be forgetting something but the point was that the weapon was pretty crap and I still got numbers that far exceed anything I've gotten with an Arcane Archer of a comparable level.

Any suggestions? I've played...

I haven't found that many mods that are really challenging tbh. If you're finding things too easy you can however adjust the difficulty yourself in various ways, I always have the difficulty setting on hardest and also limit the number of companions, so if a mod let's you have 4 people in your group I might go with 2 at first. If you get your arse hopelessly kicked you can always go get more help and turn the difficulty down.

Live Forever is maybe my favorite mod from a combat perspective. It's not FR and doesn't allow party creation but many fights are really unique and fun -  http://nwvault.ign.c...h.Detail&id=389

The Maimed God's Saga -  http://nwvault.ign.c...h.Detail&id=452

A Hunt Through the Dark - http://nwvault.ign.c...h.Detail&id=301

Legacy of the Dragon - http://nwvault.ign.c...h.Detail&id=309

Edinmoor (includes party creation, I personally suggest 3 instead of the allowed 5 members) - http://nwvault.ign.c...h.Detail&id=456

The White Rose (and the sequel) - http://nwvault.ign.c...h.Detail&id=314

NWN2 OC Makeover SoZ Edition. This lets you make a party in the OC like in SoZ (among other SoZ features) - http://nwvault.ign.c...h.Detail&id=393

For the OC I also highly recommend The Fred's XP Slider which lets you turn down the amount of XP gained from kills - http://nwvault.ign.c...d=189493&id=146

Modifié par manageri, 22 janvier 2011 - 02:39 .

[MasterChanger]

If you play in high-magic, high-crafting settings, base properties of items no longer matter in any way. In those situations, rather silly characters like crazy kama builds start to make sense if you're going by the numbers, since all the damage is coming from the items rather than the character's abilities.

Personally, I enjoy very low-magic settings where this kind of stuff doesn't come into play. However, I've always thought that as a matter of balance, larger weapons should allow greater enchantments, and shields should be able to be enchanted with all kinds of immunities. Otherwise, you end up with situations where no one wants to use a two-handed weapon or even a shield because you're giving up item property slots.

[zeroangel]

I haven't found that many mods that are really challenging tbh.

Oh I forgot this one:

http://nwvault.ign.c...h.Detail&id=272

That's a challenge IMHO, I never got past the first encounter. I might reinstall it at some point and try again. Have you ever tried that one?

Modifié par zeroangel, 22 janvier 2011 - 03:54 .

[Kaldor Silverwand]

zeroangel wrote...
I prefer a mod that is based in the forgotten realms and one where you can use the SoZ party selection. Thank you!

My King's Festival mod uses the SoZ Party Editor.

If you follow these directions you can convert modules to campaigns and add in the party editor feature.

Regards

[nicethugbert]

It's not just archers. The same happens with spell casters. Take any spell and multiply the effect. Five 10th level fireballs would add up to 50d6 fire damage. That will roast anything not having fire immunity. These games are usually "designed", i.e., imagined to work, with a varied party in mind, usually the classic four, Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 22 janvier 2011 - 08:24 .

[manageri]

zeroangel wrote...

That's a challenge IMHO, I never got past the first encounter. I might reinstall it at some point and try again. Have you ever tried that one?

Yes, I did finish it but the start is indeed ridicilous and mostly just a test of luck.

[The Fred]

If you aren't finding things difficult enough (I haven't played LoWPM but I heard it was much more difficult than the OC - that was in beta, though, so maybe Wyrin toned it down before release), you can always add mods on which toughen things up, rather than looking for a whole new adventure.

For example, there's TonyK's AI which I believe can be used to make things more challenging, there's a difficulty adjustment mod which adds bonuses to monsters when they spawn or something (see here and here), and there's even my own XP Slider which you could use to lower your XP.

Failing that, you could try and impose (possibly ridiculous) restrictions on yourself like people do in Baldur's Gate - e.g. no reloads, mage-only party (or any type of something-only or no-something-else party), less party members than necessary etc.

Modifié par The Fred, 22 janvier 2011 - 11:11 .

[kevL]

Fred ..? you can be First Man at my wedding if ya like, though I won't marry you.

me Dad can tho, he's married thousands

Modifié par kevL, 22 janvier 2011 - 07:59 .

[zeroangel]

Thank you Kaldor for the info about converting mods and thank you Fred for the XP slider, I will check it out when I get a chance.

So, anyhow, I worked out some of the math in my head and what you guys say does indeed make sense esp when one considers Crits and enhanced power attack with a WM / FB build. Also, the Kama Monk build mentioned above also makes sense.

I was thinking about making some kind of excel spreadsheet where I could get a real comparison of certain kinds of builds over a range of AC's, I think that will really take some time to do it right though, let's see if I am ambitious enough...

That said, is there any consensus on what kind of build makes the max damage dealer? Has anyone considered a dual-wielding Monkey-grip Scythe build of some kind? Or, if you want to be REALLY ORIGINAL, how about a Drow dual-wielding scimitars?

Also, I understand light weapons don't work for power attack, so if you dual-wield you have to use two medium weapons and get -4, but the off-hand gets 1/2 the stength bonus. Does it also get 1/2 the bonus from Power Attack? Thank you!

Modifié par zeroangel, 23 janvier 2011 - 12:56 .

[Arkalezth]

No, it's +3 (6 with improved) damage on both hands AFAIK. It's not a good idea usually because you'd been looking to a -7 penalty.

Other damage sources don't get halved in the off-hand. Off-hand gets full damage from Weapon Specialization, Insightful Strike, Favored Enemies...

About max damage, I never made the calculations, but for hack n slash modules with lots of enemies of the same race, I like something like 1 Ranger/FB5/Fighter X. With Improved FE, Improved (and Enhanced) Power Attack, and Favored Power Attack, it can do about +60 damage against favored enemies. Supreme Cleave means you'll kill hordes in a few seconds. And you don't need to gimp the build in other areas to achieve that.

A module I found challenging was The Subtlety of Thay. However, I think it was the first NWN2 module I played, when I was new to the game, so maybe I wouldn't find it so challenging now.

I liked Live Forever, but some fights were a bit unbalanced IMO.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 23 janvier 2011 - 01:47 .

[The Fred]

I think I heard that Weapon Master was so much of a powerhouse in NWN1, they toned it down for NWN2; I think, though, that's it's more just the presence of lots of crit-immune foes in the OC(s) which makes Increased Critical and Ki Multiplier less viable. Also there are other options for damage-dealing, like FB.

[Arkalezth]

WM gains the same abilities in both games, except AB bonuses past level 10 (+1 AB each 3 levels IIRC). In NWN2 there's no reason to go past level 7.

[Haplose]

Archers do get to some very respectable AB levels. Nothing a cleric couldn't top though. Or a buffed bard, who debuffs his enemies. There is also the advantage that they don't have to run to engage their targets. Defence is a bit of a problem though.



And when it's all about killing hordes of weak, easy-to-hit enemies (think OC), nothing can beat a Frenzied Berserker with a two-hander and Supreme Cleave.



Dual weapon builds with Epic Divine Might can pump some sick damage too (but tend to be less accurate).

[Quixal]

The Fred wrote...
If you aren't finding things difficult enough (I haven't played LoWPM but I heard it was much more difficult than the OC - that was in beta, though, so maybe Wyrin toned it down before release), you can always add mods on which toughen things up, rather than looking for a whole new adventure.

It was definitely toned down in areas. In particular, several climactic end of dungeon fights were made much easier. I love LoWPM but it is a lot less challenging than it was in early playtesting. Plus there is a LOT of loot. I tend to use the item Wyrin included that lets you destroy magic items to recharge other items to simply dispose of much of the loot.

The Fred wrote...
For example, there's TonyK's AI which I believe can be used to make things more challenging, there's a difficulty adjustment mod which adds bonuses to monsters when they spawn or something (see here and here), and there's even my own XP Slider which you could use to lower your XP.
Failing that, you could try and impose (possibly ridiculous) restrictions on yourself like people do in Baldur's Gate - e.g. no reloads, mage-only party (or any type of something-only or no-something-else party), less party members than necessary etc.

All of these are good suggestions. You can also simply rest less or not at all. As has been said, if you want a challenge do not, I repeat do not, use crafting. It tends to be way over the top. One of the settings in TonyK's AI lets you set monsters to spawn with buffing spells already cast and can be set based on the durations of the spells. This makes a surprising difference in some situations.

Modifié par Quixal, 24 janvier 2011 - 07:41 .