100 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

I've been thinking for a little while on this. But blood magic could in fact be the ethical form and not the dark art the Chantry brands it as(And hypocritically uses with phylacteries to track Apostates). And here's why.

They say blood magic was originally taught by the demons of the fade. They do know and teach it, but they also that Archon Thalsian who founded Tevinter learned it from the old god Dumat, who is technically not a demon(yet anyway, Archdemons don't really count). Some also say it was leaarned from the elves of Arlathan. But whatever the origin, blood magic was the first magic practiced on Thedas and I assume lyrium powered magic came later.

So what I'm saying is, what if Lyrium is the Dragon Age equivalent to Mako Energy from Final Fantasy 7? That would mean Lyrium is the planet's life and blood. And if so, that would make normal magic no different from blood magic, maybe worse cause when all the lyrium is used up the planet could die and all the life on it be lead to extinction. But a person's blood will replenish over time, provided the mage doesn't take it all.

If you were a mage and this is true what would seem the worse to do? Use your own blood as energy, or drain the life out of the planet and slowly doom everyone?

[Dayshadow]

What the Chantry claims is unethical is classified as such for their own benefit.

It is mainly its association with Andraste's emenies (Tevinter) and that the Chantry (and noblility) don't like the idea of a person being able to control the minds of others because that is a dangerous political weapon. 

Blood magic in and of itself is just mostly regular magic powered by blood instead of mana.  Nothing particularly sinister about it.  The most notable people to have used it, however, used it in negative ways so it has a bad stigma.

[ladydesire]

Lyrium is only a catalyst for enhancing magic, or Dwarves would be the most powerful mages in (or is that under) Thedas; since we know that Dwarves can't use magic, there is some other explanation that works better.

[WhiteKnyght]

Yes I am aware of most of that.



But if someone could discover and prove that lyrium, the "ethical" fuel for magic that the Chantry has total control of is actually the planet's blood they lose a lot of credibility.

[SalsaDMA]

I certainly felt blood magic was 'unethical' when I was fighting a certain blood mage that had lots of guards, and he kept blowing up his own guards in huge explosions of blood that filled my entire screen, just to power his spells...



Mind you, it looked very good in 3d, but still was a bit... much.... to see SO much blood everywhere, every time he blew up one of his own guards that were trying to defend him. I couldn't even see characters through those blood explosions to target things

[WhiteKnyght]

Well blood magic and any magic is like a sword. In the wrong hands it can be dangerous. But there are those who use it responsibly.

[thegreateski]

Magic is a tool of killing in general. The reason that blood magic gets picked on is because of it's mind control abilities. When it comes to straight up killing people then blood magic is no different then regular magic.

P.s. Lyrium is the raw essence of the Fade. Not the planet's blood or whatever you called it.

P.s.s. Mana replenishes itself over time. Lyrium is not needed to replenish a person's mana.

Modifié par thegreateski, 22 janvier 2011 - 06:18 .

[yarrum k]

Anyone that uses blood magic is on a slippery slope. Powerful spells can kill allies too. At first the blood mage is careful but after a time they become a threat to friend and foe alike. The most powerful spells consume life itself.

[moilami]

yarrum k wrote...

Anyone that uses blood magic is on a slippery slope. Powerful spells can kill allies too. At first the blood mage is careful but after a time they become a threat to friend and foe alike. The most powerful spells consume life itself.

There are artillery and bombers too, even though they can kill allies. In fact it is not uncommon for rifles to cause friendly fire kills. Where is the slippery slope?

An unskilled warrior is carefull at first but after time can become a threat to friend and foe alike. Slippery slope?

[moilami]

thegreateski wrote...

Magic is a tool of killing in general. The reason that blood magic gets picked on is because of it's mind control abilities. When it comes to straight up killing people then blood magic is no different then regular magic.

P.s. Lyrium is the raw essence of the Fade. Not the planet's blood or whatever you called it.

P.s.s. Mana replenishes itself over time. Lyrium is not needed to replenish a person's mana.

I haven't seen yet unending charm blood magic. I have seen blood magic which prohibits movement.

Blood magic is forbidden because Chantry needs some excuse to control mages and stay in power.


(And if you are paranoid of "mind control" (lol) hire a templar to do that "cleanse" spell or mage do the glyph. Best yet don't let any people come close to you because there can be blood mage in disguise anywhere.)

Modifié par moilami, 22 janvier 2011 - 07:11 .

[MishenNikara]

Mind control is evil!!!



....Turning people into walking bombs, injecting them with poison that causes them to constantly take damage then blow up? Turning people into rocks then shattering them with no means to defend themselves? Yeah, those are OK.

[thegreateski]

moilami wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Magic is a tool of killing in general. The reason that blood magic gets picked on is because of it's mind control abilities. When it comes to straight up killing people then blood magic is no different then regular magic.

P.s. Lyrium is the raw essence of the Fade. Not the planet's blood or whatever you called it.

P.s.s. Mana replenishes itself over time. Lyrium is not needed to replenish a person's mana.

I haven't seen yet unending charm blood magic. I have seen blood magic which prohibits movement.

Blood magic is forbidden because Chantry needs some excuse to control mages and stay in power.


(And if you are paranoid of "mind control" (lol) hire a templar to do that "cleanse" spell or mage do the glyph. Best yet don't let any people come close to you because there can be blood mage in disguise anywhere.)

Are you implying that I'm paranoid about mind control? My "canon" Warden was a blood mage I'll have you know.

and yes, the blood magic school of the game does have a mind control spell. Blood magic is forbidden because the old Tevinter lords used it to maintain their power and (according to the Chantry) attempt to overthrow the Maker.

Modifié par thegreateski, 22 janvier 2011 - 10:17 .

[moilami]

MishenNikara wrote...

Mind control is evil!!!

....Turning people into walking bombs, injecting them with poison that causes them to constantly take damage then blow up? Turning people into rocks then shattering them with no means to defend themselves? Yeah, those are OK.

Mmm.. at least some have brains. The Circle has not managed to lobotomize them all.

[moilami]

thegreateski wrote...

moilami wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

Magic is a tool of killing in general. The reason that blood magic gets picked on is because of it's mind control abilities. When it comes to straight up killing people then blood magic is no different then regular magic.

P.s. Lyrium is the raw essence of the Fade. Not the planet's blood or whatever you called it.

P.s.s. Mana replenishes itself over time. Lyrium is not needed to replenish a person's mana.

I haven't seen yet unending charm blood magic. I have seen blood magic which prohibits movement.

Blood magic is forbidden because Chantry needs some excuse to control mages and stay in power.


(And if you are paranoid of "mind control" (lol) hire a templar to do that "cleanse" spell or mage do the glyph. Best yet don't let any people come close to you because there can be blood mage in disguise anywhere.)

Are you implying that I'm paranoid about mind control? My "canon" Warden was a blood mage I'll have you know.

and yes, the blood magic school of the game does have a mind control spell. Blood magic is forbidden because the old Tevinter lords used it to maintain their power and (according to the Chantry) attempt to overthrow the Maker.

How exactly did they try to maintain power with blood magic? And why Chantry did not use their blood hounds (templars) to protect places where protection is needed? A blood mut is only allowed to go track a blood mage, or anyone else for that matter, after a crime has happened. It is not a crime to be born as a mage, and it is not a crime to be interested or use blood magic in lawful ways. What Chantry, that criminal organization, says doesn't matter anything.

Edit: Chantry have blood in their hands more than all blood mages combined. And that blood is mostly blood of the innocents. Or blood of criminals driven to be criminals by Chantry. And I don't even start about lobotomized slave force. They are fanatics! Last time I walked near a chantry I heard someone just chanting and refusing to speak anything what would make sense. A wolf pretending to be a sheep. That is what Chantry is.

Modifié par moilami, 22 janvier 2011 - 11:05 .

[thegreateski]

moilami wrote...
How exactly did they try to maintain power with blood magic? And why Chantry did not use their blood hounds (templars) to protect places where protection is needed? A blood mut is only allowed to go track a blood mage, or anyone else for that matter, after a crime has happened. It is not a crime to be born as a mage, and it is not a crime to be interested or use blood magic in lawful ways. What Chantry, that criminal organization, says doesn't matter anything.

Edit: Chantry have blood in their hands more than all blood mages combined. And that blood is mostly blood of the innocents. Or blood of criminals driven to be criminals by Chantry. And I don't even start about lobotomized slave force. They are fanatics! Last time I walked near a chantry I heard someone just chanting and refusing to speak anything what would make sense. A wolf pretending to be a sheep. That is what Chantry is.

- By threatening to kill/mind control anyone who rebeled.
- The Chantry did not exist back then.
- The Templars hunt apostates regardless of wether they have commited a crime. Templars do not always kill these apostates though, they will attempt to bring them to the mage tower first. They kill blood mages on sight though.
- Mages are dangerous, the possibility exists for them to be possesed by a demon. The Chantry locks them up in the circle tower because of this.
- It is a crime to use blood magic. Grey Wardens get a free pass because they are Grey Wardens.
-Most of the kingdoms of Thedas hold the chantry in high regard. The kingdom of Orlais is dominated by the chantry. Orlasis is the largest kingdom is Thedas.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm not fond of the Chantry. The organization as a whole is simply a power grab by it's higher ranking members. They are right about a few things though, such as mages and blood magic being dangerous.

[WhiteKnyght]

@thegreateski



1. There are more forms of magic than killing. Such as healing and defensive magic. Barriers, wards, and regeneration spells.



2. Morrigan was a "maleficar" from long before she ever joined the Warden. Even if she didn't have the specialization she knew how to do it and most likely had. She turned out to be one of the good guys. And Jowan made mistakes but plenty of non-blood mages want to be free of the Chantry, to live their lives as they wish, be with the person they love, and not have their children taken from them at birth. And Jowan could be trusted to kill the demon in Connor and not strike a deal with it.



3. The present day Tevinter may endorse slavery but they openly allow free use of magic AND blood magic and they do not have abominations and demons running amok.



4. The Chantry supposedly took Andraste at her word that it was the Magistrate's fault for the blights, but that doesn't give them the right to punish every single mage for what The Magistrate allegedly did.



5. Some of the Templars lie about Apostates being blood mages just to have an excuse to kill them. And others don't care about the Grey Warden's privileges.



The reason Mages are oppressed is pure prejudice and nothing more. How can they prove that they are responsible when they are never given a chance?

[samttl]

To be fair to the Chantry, their policing of mages isn't just something they do for the hell of it. DA Mages are incredibly powerful (especially for their pre-industrial setting) and just one that doesn't want to play by the rules of a civil society can wreak havoc. It's even worse with blood mages, who're the only mages that can influence minds (and they've done it to meddle with politics before too, or at least that one Grey Warden blood mage did).

[ladydesire]

samttl wrote...

 It's even worse with blood mages, who're the only mages that can influence minds (and they've done it to meddle with politics before too, or at least that one Grey Warden blood mage did).

Avernus had nothing to do with that, actually; I can't go into detail because this is the "No Spoiler" forum, but if you get all the Codex entries from Warden's Keep, you'll see what actually happened.

[moilami]

thegreateski wrote...

moilami wrote...
How exactly did they try to maintain power with blood magic? And why Chantry did not use their blood hounds (templars) to protect places where protection is needed? A blood mut is only allowed to go track a blood mage, or anyone else for that matter, after a crime has happened. It is not a crime to be born as a mage, and it is not a crime to be interested or use blood magic in lawful ways. What Chantry, that criminal organization, says doesn't matter anything.

Edit: Chantry have blood in their hands more than all blood mages combined. And that blood is mostly blood of the innocents. Or blood of criminals driven to be criminals by Chantry. And I don't even start about lobotomized slave force. They are fanatics! Last time I walked near a chantry I heard someone just chanting and refusing to speak anything what would make sense. A wolf pretending to be a sheep. That is what Chantry is.

- By threatening to kill/mind control anyone who rebeled.
- The Chantry did not exist back then.
- The Templars hunt apostates regardless of wether they have commited a crime. Templars do not always kill these apostates though, they will attempt to bring them to the mage tower first. They kill blood mages on sight though.
- Mages are dangerous, the possibility exists for them to be possesed by a demon. The Chantry locks them up in the circle tower because of this.
- It is a crime to use blood magic. Grey Wardens get a free pass because they are Grey Wardens.
-Most of the kingdoms of Thedas hold the chantry in high regard. The kingdom of Orlais is dominated by the chantry. Orlasis is the largest kingdom is Thedas.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm not fond of the Chantry. The organization as a whole is simply a power grab by it's higher ranking members. They are right about a few things though, such as mages and blood magic being dangerous.

Everyone who is in power usually wants to keep that power. If mages back then were in power and abused their powers, it is another story. Now the abuser of power is Chantry, and it is their turn to be stripped of power.

Educated mages who have much to lose by letting a demon posses them wont let demons do possessions. And if someone does, he can be dealt with like any other dangerous madman. It is a matter of sending a group of templars and mages after him - but this time for real reason.

There are all kind of threats. Mages are a threat, but also a great asset. Now they are locked in a tower, they are no asset but only a threat even though they could work in co-operation with Chantries and offer superior healing services for people. This will have to change. Killing people because of their inherit abilities is wrong. Mages have a lot to give to the society, and they will give if given a chance.

[thegreateski]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

@thegreateski

1. There are more forms of magic than killing. Such as healing and defensive magic. Barriers, wards, and regeneration spells.

2. Morrigan was a "maleficar" from long before she ever joined the Warden. Even if she didn't have the specialization she knew how to do it and most likely had. She turned out to be one of the good guys. And Jowan made mistakes but plenty of non-blood mages want to be free of the Chantry, to live their lives as they wish, be with the person they love, and not have their children taken from them at birth. And Jowan could be trusted to kill the demon in Connor and not strike a deal with it.

3. The present day Tevinter may endorse slavery but they openly allow free use of magic AND blood magic and they do not have abominations and demons running amok.

4. The Chantry supposedly took Andraste at her word that it was the Magistrate's fault for the blights, but that doesn't give them the right to punish every single mage for what The Magistrate allegedly did.

5. Some of the Templars lie about Apostates being blood mages just to have an excuse to kill them. And others don't care about the Grey Warden's privileges.

The reason Mages are oppressed is pure prejudice and nothing more. How can they prove that they are responsible when they are never given a chance?

1. I'll give you healing magic, but the defensive spells are used in combat. Thus, they assist in killing.
2. Morrigan was an Apostate, not a maleficar. I know that not all mages who want to be free of the chantry are blood mages. I too wish that the circle was free of chantry influence. Templars are still needed though.
3. Present day Tevinter does not allow blood magic. The Tevinter lords still practice it behind closed doors however. Tevinter is a mage controlled kingdom, I'm certain that they have something similar to "The Circle" within their borders for teaching any new mages how to control their powers.
4. No it does not. I'm simply saying they're right about Mages and blood magic being dangerous. They should not be in control of those mages.
5. That's a case of breaking the law. Not something openly condoned by the Chantry. and I pity the fool who ignores a Grey Warden's rights.

Mages are "oppressed" because they are dangerous. most of them may not be but those few who are ruin it for the rest of them. Take Connor for example. A child mage who was possesed and he (potentially) wiped out a town and castle all by his lonesome.

[WhiteKnyght]

@samttl:



Kings and nobles are also incredibly powerful and dangerous. With a word lands can fall, laws can change, and lives be destroyed. Does the Chantry take their power from them and imprison them for it?



As for the domination, blood control works by using the blood to move their bodies against their will, like Bloodbending in Avatar The Last Airbender(perhaps thats what inspired Blood Control in DAO. lol). I don't think it actually manipulates their free will as much as the Chantry says.



Its not fair for the mages. The Chantry has no right to kidnap children from their homes and locking them up in a glorified prison, and then take their children from them when they are born.



A lot of the Templars are bigots and bullies. And the Chantry are that and they are hypocrites because they use Blood Magic on phylacteries to hunt apostates.



@ladydesire



They should make a General Discussion forum that allows spoilers. Or at least allow us to talk about spoiling stuff by giving the proper warning. Like putting "Spoilers!" in the topic title or something.

[moilami]

MEGASPOILERS! Don't read. (I can though delete my posting.)

thegreateski wrote...

Mages are "oppressed" because they are dangerous. most of them may not be but those few who are ruin it for the rest of them. Take Connor for example. A child mage who was possesed and he (potentially) wiped out a town and castle all by his lonesome.

Connor incidence happened only because of Chantry. If there were no Chantry enforcing their mad rules, Connor's mother would had made different decisions regarding his son. Also note there was Connor and Jowan. Connor got possessed with the help of Jowan by reading his books. He also had big motivation to become possessed to help his father. There was a demon in Shale basement and a little girl, but the demon was unable to posses the girl for the time being. All this suggests a person have to be very desperate and willing in order for the demon be able to posses him.

Connor incidence is just a good example why Chantry must be stripped of power and mages put to work in co-operation with templars and Chantry. It will benefit the society the most, and we don't have to fear yet another Connor incident.

Modifié par moilami, 23 janvier 2011 - 03:13 .

[WhiteKnyght]

The Circle being a school for mages is a good idea, but they should be allowed more freedoms.



1. Parents should be able to visit their children as well as have them home some days, like birthdays, holidays, etc.



2. Templars should only be called in for emergency, not be Big Brother for the Chantry. And take away the right of Annulment from them.



3. When a mage passes their Harrowing it should be considered a graduation and they be allowed to leave if they so choose.



@thegreatseki:



Did you notice that in all the instances where mages turned to blood magic to do their bad deeds it was after they had already become bad or desperate? Except for Jowan but he was dabbling to make himself a better mage. But the point is it wasn't blood magic that corrupted them, their hearts were already darkened.

[SalsaDMA]

moilami wrote...

yarrum k wrote...

Anyone that uses blood magic is on a slippery slope. Powerful spells can kill allies too. At first the blood mage is careful but after a time they become a threat to friend and foe alike. The most powerful spells consume life itself.

There are artillery and bombers too, even though they can kill allies. In fact it is not uncommon for rifles to cause friendly fire kills. Where is the slippery slope?

An unskilled warrior is carefull at first but after time can become a threat to friend and foe alike. Slippery slope?

your comparison is wrong.

You can compare artillery and bombs to fireballs that have the ability to inflict friendly fire.

Specifically killing/sacrificing your own people like blood magic can just to cast a spell, however, is more comparable to walking up to one of your allies and stabbing him in the back cause you wanted his money to pay for something.

and there is ofc the mind control issue too.

[thegreateski]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
@thegreatseki:

Did you notice that in all the instances where mages turned to blood magic to do their bad deeds it was after they had already become bad or desperate? Except for Jowan but he was dabbling to make himself a better mage. But the point is it wasn't blood magic that corrupted them, their hearts were already darkened.

Of course I did, and those mages who turn to blood magic out of a lust for power ruin it for the rest of "magekind".
I never stated that blood magic corrupts people, nor implied it.