100 réponses à ce sujet

[moilami]

Louis_Cypher wrote...

Nor is the current system rendering mages useless to the kingdom. There are mages available to fight the war, both at Ostagar and with the PC. There's a magic shop in Denerim. When Arl Eamon fell sick, mages tried to heal him; presumably other wealthy/noble people get the same. Could the circle system do more good and/or be more humane if it were more open, possibly yes, but that increases the risk. Conner probably did more harm than Uldred (despite being less powerful and there only being one mage present), and certainly would have if the Warden weren't there, because the Templars were able to contain Uldred.

And yes, many of the risks of mages apply to nobles as well. Part of the reason democracy is better than feudalism.

Connor incident happened only because of Chantry. And there is no reason why it would not happen again in lesser or bigger scale. No Chantry can stop people from breeding and new mages borning as a concequence, and it is a matter of time when yet another mother or father will chose to not send their son or daughter to the chantry.

Democracy is better than feudalism, but mages are not even close to kings in power, and not all kings has been bad. If power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, then there would never had been any good kings. So the analogy is just failed fear, uncertainty, and doubt out of hat analogy.

All this discussion is just pointless unless it is fun. The world will work with free mages or mages imprisoned. You just chose your side. I leave you now have fun with it yourself.

[moilami]

[quote]ladydesire wrote...

[quote]moilami wrote...

[quote]ladydesire wrote...

@moilami: We don't know for certain if Andraste was a Mage; we only know that the Tevinter Chantry believes that she was, which is part of the reason for the schism between them and the Val Royeaux based Andrastian Chantry. There are also indications that not all of Her writings are part of the Chant of Light, so it's possible that She never intended for such a thing to happen.[/quote]

What matters is that freedom is not a crime, and a law what says the opposite is corrupt, twisted, and foul. So mages are not criminals untill they have actually done something to be criminals. Using magic could be defined as a crime, but that would be against the Chant as the Chant says magic exist to serve man and therefore is clearly meant to be used.[/quote][/quote]

[quote]ladydesire wrote...Yes, but at the time Andraste is supposed to have said that, the Magisters of the Tevinter Imperium were the most well known Mages and they were using magic to rule over men. If there were other Mages not aligned with the Tevinter Imperium (other than Elven Mages), there is nothing in the lore speaking of them.[/quote]

They were doing it wrong then. They deserved to get whatever bad happened to them. The chant says everything.

[quote]Magic part of chant is part of chant untill proven otherwise. You can't begin to cherry pick parts of it and ignore others. If you do that you are just making your own chant.
[/quote]

[quote]ladydesire wrote...Yet, isn't that what the Andrastian Chantry is doing, if they know of other texts that belong in the Chant of Light and do not include them? The Tevinter Chantry may have reversed centuries of restrictions on Mages, but only in the the Imperium itself; Qunari Mages are even more tightly controlled than Human or Elven ones. Also, there are indications that the Templars themselves are under some form of control using Lyrium, in much the same way as Mages are; there are even reports that date back to the Tevinter Era that say that heavy use of Lyrium can alter the appearance of the user such that they no longer appear human.[/quote]

[/quote]

That would explain heavy use of helmets in face fixated world.

I am clueless of these different chants. What I have read Andraste saying has anyway made sense, and I would have no problems to try follow it. Note the word try. I can say I would not succeed in it. What the other chants say I have no idea, and I would have to study them carefully before I could say would I even try to follow them.

[ladydesire]

[quote]moilami wrote...



[quote]ladydesire wrote...Yet, isn't that what the Andrastian Chantry is doing, if they know of other texts that belong in the Chant of Light and do not include them? The Tevinter Chantry may have reversed centuries of restrictions on Mages, but only in the the Imperium itself; Qunari Mages are even more tightly controlled than Human or Elven ones. Also, there are indications that the Templars themselves are under some form of control using Lyrium, in much the same way as Mages are; there are even reports that date back to the Tevinter Era that say that heavy use of Lyrium can alter the appearance of the user such that they no longer appear human.[/quote]

[/quote]

That would explain heavy use of helmets in face fixated world.[/quote]

It would also explain the belief that Mages are easily turned into Abominations if left unguarded.

[moilami]

[quote]ladydesire wrote...

[quote]moilami wrote...



[quote]ladydesire wrote...Yet, isn't that what the Andrastian Chantry is doing, if they know of other texts that belong in the Chant of Light and do not include them? The Tevinter Chantry may have reversed centuries of restrictions on Mages, but only in the the Imperium itself; Qunari Mages are even more tightly controlled than Human or Elven ones. Also, there are indications that the Templars themselves are under some form of control using Lyrium, in much the same way as Mages are; there are even reports that date back to the Tevinter Era that say that heavy use of Lyrium can alter the appearance of the user such that they no longer appear human.[/quote]

[/quote]

That would explain heavy use of helmets in face fixated world.[/quote]

[quote]ladydesire wrote...
It would also explain the belief that Mages are easily turned into Abominations if left unguarded.[/quote]


[/quote]

Uneducated people can be made to believe anything, and after the seed of fear has been sown, it yields more than they can harvest.


Edit: And the situation is very challenging. Mages are locked in a tower while fear spreads and mages become more and more "alien" to the people. Mages have no chance to prove they are not monsters since many desperate mages on the lose just increases fear. And like every story, when blood mage killed two templars before got killed, in the next tavern the story says he killed four, and in the next county the story says he killed 6 templars, ate two babies, and burned a whole village before templars managed to catch him. The only "crime" what the mage did was that he was a mage and refused to be killed voluntarily by templars.

I don't see any hope for mages other than large scale war where they can prove themselves, unite, and get rid of corrupted chantry as it is weakened by war.

Modifié par moilami, 25 janvier 2011 - 02:28 .

[Jace Surana]

No, blood magic is not evil.



And to imply it is, as well as implying that anyone who uses it is automatically evil, is foolish.



Blood magic, to be honest, is just as dangerous as any other form of offensive magic. A person can no more declare a type of magic evil because it is dangerous than they can declare a type of blade or club evil because it could hurt people. If you ask me, the chantry are ten times as evil as any blood mage has ever been. Screw the chantry. That's why I deliberately play a blood mage and spit on chantry dogs any chance I get.

[moilami]

Jace Surana wrote...

No, blood magic is not evil.

And to imply it is, as well as implying that anyone who uses it is automatically evil, is foolish.

Blood magic, to be honest, is just as dangerous as any other form of offensive magic. A person can no more declare a type of magic evil because it is dangerous than they can declare a type of blade or club evil because it could hurt people. If you ask me, the chantry are ten times as evil as any blood mage has ever been. Screw the chantry. That's why I deliberately play a blood mage and spit on chantry dogs any chance I get.

Professionals use the best tools and leave the rest argue about ethics and mumble hocus pocus polymorph to frogus or fight with toothpicks.

This DA would be awesome if this would had been done in the same way as BG. In a way you could kill anyone. I would do rogue who would go revenge his mage brother lobotomized by Chantry. Would ninja kill every templar, and chantry and circle related people. Now my toons can only steal money from chantry

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

Blood-Mages are like psykers, dangerous if not properly trained and monitored.

[moilami]

The Water God wrote...

moilami wrote...

Jace Surana wrote...

No, blood magic is not evil.

And to imply it is, as well as implying that anyone who uses it is automatically evil, is foolish.

Blood magic, to be honest, is just as dangerous as any other form of offensive magic. A person can no more declare a type of magic evil because it is dangerous than they can declare a type of blade or club evil because it could hurt people. If you ask me, the chantry are ten times as evil as any blood mage has ever been. Screw the chantry. That's why I deliberately play a blood mage and spit on chantry dogs any chance I get.

Professionals use the best tools and leave the rest argue about ethics and mumble hocus pocus polymorph to frogus or fight with toothpicks.

This DA would be awesome if this would had been done in the same way as BG. In a way you could kill anyone. I would do rogue who would go revenge his mage brother lobotomized by Chantry. Would ninja kill every templar, and chantry and circle related people. Now my toons can only steal money from chantry

I don't see how stealing money from the Chantry is fighting back at them seeing how they give alot of it to the poor.....

Haven't seen that happening. There was an Elf family in the village which got later destroyed and whom has lost everything begging money. It would also be less money for Lyrium in case they give it to the templars. And the less they can pribe the poor the better when overthrown the corrupt organization.

[Louis_Cypher]

moilami wrote...
Connor incident happened only because of Chantry. And there is no reason why it would not happen again in lesser or bigger scale. No Chantry can stop people from breeding and new mages borning as a concequence, and it is a matter of time when yet another mother or father will chose to not send their son or daughter to the chantry.

Connor happened because he was inadequately trained.  Currently, the Chantry makes training mandatory; you think making training optional will reduce the number of poorly trained, vulnerable mages?

Democracy is better than feudalism, but mages are not even close to kings in power, and not all kings has been bad.

Yes, not all kings are bad.  And yet, democracy is still better, because it protects people against the danger of the kings who are bad.  Not all mages are bad, but the circle system protects people against those who are. Therefore... 

The world will work with free mages or mages imprisoned. You just chose your side.

I'm free to be persuaded, and I do think that, in fact, Chantry's restrictions are stricter than optimal.  But I do think that they're sufficiently dangerous that a certain amount of restriction is justified.

And I'm frankly puzzled that you've chosen this injustice to go crazy over.  Compared to the city elves and the casteless dwarves, the plight of mages doesn't seem so bad.

I leave you now have fun with it yourself.

Bye!

[moilami]

Louis_Cypher wrote...

Connor happened because he was inadequately trained.  Currently, the Chantry makes training mandatory; you think making training optional will reduce the number of poorly trained, vulnerable mages?

Connor happened because her mother did not want to send her son to the circle -> it happened because of the circle.

Louis_Cypher wrote...
Yes, not all kings are bad.  And yet, democracy is still better, because it protects people against the danger of the kings who are bad.  Not all mages are bad, but the circle system protects people against those who are. Therefore...

It doesn't protect. It can't never protect either. There will be always mages on the lose as there are now, and it is only a matter of time when somewhere explodes. But what happens now too is that people get only cons of magic and mages and not the pros. The solution would be to try kill every mage, it could give even more protection, but would the people want to get rid of mages? Of a great asset? Of which they would never get completely rid in practise because new mages are born every year?

Louis_Cypher wrote...
I'm free to be persuaded, and I do think that, in fact, Chantry's restrictions are stricter than optimal.  But I do think that they're sufficiently dangerous that a certain amount of restriction is justified.

Of course there would be restrictions if mages would be free. First of all mages would restrict themselves because mages are just people and would have no desire to kill other people just because they can, like a commoner doesn't try to kill people just because he can. Mages are powerful, but not all powerful. If they would turn criminal they would get killed sooner or later like any commoner. Any mage could benefit more of his powers by just using it for common good. Mages are not evil. They are just people who have much easier time to get easy life by legal means.

Louis_Cypher wrote...And I'm frankly puzzled that you've chosen this injustice to go crazy over.  Compared to the city elves and the casteless dwarves, the plight of mages doesn't seem so bad.

A good question, haven't thought about that. Of course I don't like castes system but it is easier to accept because there has been castes in real world. City Elves exist in real world too. But mages are different, they are slain and portrayed as evil monsters and walking time bombs with no human rights because of their inherit abilities while forgetting completely everything else.


Edit: Anyway, this is just a game, and a very good game. Would make a very good pen&paper campaigns. Even better would be MMORPG where I could be genlock emissary or rogue.

Modifié par moilami, 25 janvier 2011 - 04:37 .

[SalsaDMA]

Jace Surana wrote...

No, blood magic is not evil.

And to imply it is, as well as implying that anyone who uses it is automatically evil, is foolish.

Blood magic, to be honest, is just as dangerous as any other form of offensive magic. A person can no more declare a type of magic evil because it is dangerous than they can declare a type of blade or club evil because it could hurt people. If you ask me, the chantry are ten times as evil as any blood mage has ever been. Screw the chantry. That's why I deliberately play a blood mage and spit on chantry dogs any chance I get.

To make a parallell, do you think chemical weapons are evil? Biological weapons? WMDs? Slavery?

The first 3 could equally be argued to be 'just a weapon', while the last leans on the ethics of mind control magic.

If one weapon kills a person clean off, no nonsense, and another weapon inflicts horrible pain on the victim, rapes his very personality, destroys his legacy, and then kills him, I would certainly claim usage of the second weapon in any form is inherently more evil than using the first.

[SalsaDMA]

moilami wrote...

Louis_Cypher wrote...

Connor happened because he was inadequately trained.  Currently, the Chantry makes training mandatory; you think making training optional will reduce the number of poorly trained, vulnerable mages?

Connor happened because her mother did not want to send her son to the circle -> it happened because of the circle.

That's a cop out.

Connor happened because his mother didn't get him proper training.

Trying to blame shift that one only shows a lack of character.

[Louis_Cypher]

moilami wrote...
It doesn't protect. It can't never protect either. There will be always mages on the lose as there are now, and it is only a matter of time when somewhere explodes. But what happens now too is that people get only cons of magic and mages and not the pros. The solution would be to try kill every mage, it could give even more protection, but would the people want to get rid of mages? Of a great asset? Of which they would never get completely rid in practise because new mages are born every year?

So, because it can't achieve perfect protection, it's not even worth trying?  That's not a productive approach.  You have to balance the danger of mages with their value they provide people.  Which the Chantry clearly does, since it doesn't kill any mage it finds.  It doesn't even keep them locked up 100% of the time; it allows Wonders of Thedas to exist, mages to help fight the Blight, etc.

moilami wrote...
Of course there would be restrictions if mages would be free. First of all mages would restrict themselves because mages are just people and would have no desire to kill other people just because they can, like a commoner doesn't try to kill people just because he can.  Mages are powerful, but not all powerful. If they would turn criminal they would get killed sooner or later like any commoner. Any mage could benefit more of his powers by just using it for common good.Mages are not evil.

You can't build a society on the assumption that all people are going to do the right thing all of the time.  And a mage stepping over the line can have much worse consequences than a commoner, even if the mage doesn't intend to go that far.  A normal person who gets greedy or angry might steal things or kill someone (almost always just one person or a handful of people, not a whole village); a mage might try to bind a demon beyond their abilities, become an abomination, and then everybody in the vicinity gets killed or possessed.

And stopping a criminal mage, or especially a powerful abomination, is much more difficult than stopping an ordinary criminal.  Look at what it takes to stop Connor and Uldred.  Look at Gaxkang, and how long it was able to operate before it was stopped, and what that took.

[moilami]

SalsaDMA wrote...

moilami wrote...

Louis_Cypher wrote...

Connor happened because he was inadequately trained.  Currently, the Chantry makes training mandatory; you think making training optional will reduce the number of poorly trained, vulnerable mages?

Connor happened because her mother did not want to send her son to the circle -> it happened because of the circle.

That's a cop out.

Connor happened because his mother didn't get him proper training.

Trying to blame shift that one only shows a lack of character.

Ah, I have to explain it again.

There was chantry and its sick methods and worthless "training" -> Connor's mother did not want to send Connor into chantry training -> Connor's mother never sent Connor to Chantry training -> Connor incident happened.


In a system where there was no sick chantry but proper school for mages:

Connor's mother wanted to send Connor into mage school -> Connor incident never happened.


Edit: This sick chantry is asking mothers to love chantry more than their kids. I need to think would I send my child to the chantry. Hmm, one moment, hmm, no way. I would not send. The decision would be ultimately his to make, but and therefore I would keep him safe untill he would understand the decision. I would not be able to ask anyone to send their kids to the chantry either.

Edit: Hell, for that matter, I would not even send my dog there.

Modifié par moilami, 25 janvier 2011 - 08:51 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Connor's incident happened for two reasons that are directly the Chantry's fault.



1. She feared her son would be taken against his will to the Circle for training by the CHANTRY.



2. Isolde is a very religious woman and her son having magic is embarrassing to her. Thats the Chantry's fault too for demonizing magic in their world when its a Maker given ability, not a curse.

[SalsaDMA]

Connor happened because his mother couldn't cope with the responsibility of dealing with a hard choice.



In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that she is directly to blame through not treating magic with the attention and care that it required, but tried to fix things with any random tool she stumbled upon (a non-circle mage).



Had she not been neglecting her responsibility for her son, instead of trying to keep up appearances, she would have ensured that he received proper training to minimize the risk of him succombing to a demon. Proper training equals the circle of magi.



That the incident happened just goes to show that people not willing to get the proper training but think they can do things 'their way' without real knowledge of the issue or the inherent risks, seems like adequate proof that a formalized institution is required.



Just think of the havoc that would have been caused if none of the circle mages had attended proper training and were trying to bash out things themselves.



You don't just hand out small tactical WMDs to people on the street and then rely on them to 'do the right thing'. Doing so is asking for a disaster to happen. Connor incident was one demon, controlling a child. Figure out your self how much bigger the damage would be if every magic user ran the risk of not training in a controlled enviroment.



There's a reason the templars are ready to kill the mages that undertake the harrowing. It's not just because they think it's fun to stab mages with a sword.

[moilami]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Connor's incident happened for two reasons that are directly the Chantry's fault.

1. She feared her son would be taken against his will to the Circle for training by the CHANTRY.

2. Isolde is a very religious woman and her son having magic is embarrassing to her. Thats the Chantry's fault too for demonizing magic in their world when its a Maker given ability, not a curse.

Very good that 2nd point. I did not remember that much less thought about it. But now I remember indeed something like that.

[moilami]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Connor happened because his mother couldn't cope with the responsibility of dealing with a hard choice.

Interesting point, but you can't blame people they can't cope with whatever government say, can you? After all the government is for people and not the other way around like in Soviet Union. The same goes in feudalism. The king is for people and not the other way around.

SalsaDMA wrote...
In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that she is directly to blame through not treating magic with the attention and care that it required, but tried to fix things with any random tool she stumbled upon (a non-circle mage).

She can hardly be blamed of not being a puppet for chantry. Also she was unlucky to stumple upon Jowia and not on some Mage Liberation Front mage taking her son away to safety, and later when the boy would had matured and understood the situation the boy now man could had made a choise to join on Mage Liberation Front or go to Chantry. Or whatever.

SalsaDMA wrote...
Had she not been neglecting her responsibility for her son, instead of trying to keep up appearances, she would have ensured that he received proper training to minimize the risk of him succombing to a demon. Proper training equals the circle of magi.

There is no responsibility to turn innocent people to the official.

SalsaDMA wrote...
That the incident happened just goes to show that people not willing to get the proper training but think they can do things 'their way' without real knowledge of the issue or the inherent risks, seems like adequate proof that a formalized institution is required.

No, now there is your system, the chantry, which is broken, sick, and therefore unacceptable.

SalsaDMA wrote...
Just think of the havoc that would have been caused if none of the circle mages had attended proper training and were trying to bash out things themselves.

Like Morrigan? Probably they would had been abel to do nothing. Untrained mages are raw gems. They can't do anything else but show sigs of the talent. Connor needed Jowia and his book. Morrigan was taught by her mother.

And I haven't said there should not be mage school. Of course there should be mage school.

SalsaDMA wrote...
You don't just hand out small tactical WMDs to people on the street and then rely on them to 'do the right thing'. Doing so is asking for a disaster to happen. Connor incident was one demon, controlling a child. Figure out your self how much bigger the damage would be if every magic user ran the risk of not training in a controlled enviroment.

Untrained mage doesn't cast even the vulnerability spell.

SalsaDMA wrote...
There's a reason the templars are ready to kill the mages that undertake the harrowing. It's not just because they think it's fun to stab mages with a sword.

Templars kill innocent mages who are no threat to anything because they are uneducated fools, possibly fanatics and blood thirsty too. I don't want to even know what they do to females who has reached certain age.

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

Why doesn't Alistair confront me if I'm a Maleficar? I'm also an Arcane Warrior/Battlemage/Blood-Mage. I actually thought that I could recruit Jowan, when I rescued Arl Eamon.

[Major Crackhead]

I will just spit at DA universe and never touch these games after I have played DA2 through. Up to this day I could stand this Chantry nonsense and slaying people because of their inherit abilities, making freedom a crime, just because my toons never participated on it and only saw a mad world. If in DA2 there is no way to fight for freedom and justice I will stomp the game box and burn it on Midsummer fire.

Hey, I wouldn't worry about it. Hawke comes from a family with Apostate history, and during the course of the story he/she or his/her sister is a Mage, so I'm pretty sure you'll have the chance to fight for some GREAT JUSTICE!
 

[moilami]

Blood-Lord Thanatos wrote...

Why doesn't Alistair confront me if I'm a Maleficar? I'm also an Arcane Warrior/Battlemage/Blood-Mage. I actually thought that I could recruit Jowan, when I rescued Arl Eamon.

Lol Jowan would had made a great NPC.*


*companion


Edit: By the way great beard on your portrait && I think I thought too I could recruit Jowan and who would teach blood magic. Yeah, I was WTF when I could not recruit Jowan.

Modifié par moilami, 26 janvier 2011 - 10:02 .

[moilami]

EvilCecil4th wrote...

I will just spit at DA universe and never touch these games after I have played DA2 through. Up to this day I could stand this Chantry nonsense and slaying people because of their inherit abilities, making freedom a crime, just because my toons never participated on it and only saw a mad world. If in DA2 there is no way to fight for freedom and justice I will stomp the game box and burn it on Midsummer fire.

Hey, I wouldn't worry about it. Hawke comes from a family with Apostate history, and during the course of the story he/she or his/her sister is a Mage, so I'm pretty sure you'll have the chance to fight for some GREAT JUSTICE!
 

Now that sounds better.