100 réponses à ce sujet

[moilami]

The Water God wrote...

moilami wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Connor happened because his mother couldn't cope with the responsibility of dealing with a hard choice.

Interesting point, but you can't blame people they can't cope with whatever government say, can you? After all the government is for people and not the other way around like in Soviet Union. The same goes in feudalism. The king is for people and not the other way around.

SalsaDMA wrote...
In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that she is directly to blame through not treating magic with the attention and care that it required, but tried to fix things with any random tool she stumbled upon (a non-circle mage).

She can hardly be blamed of not being a puppet for chantry. Also she was unlucky to stumple upon Jowia and not on some Mage Liberation Front mage taking her son away to safety, and later when the boy would had matured and understood the situation the boy now man could had made a choise to join on Mage Liberation Front or go to Chantry. Or whatever.

SalsaDMA wrote...
Had she not been neglecting her responsibility for her son, instead of trying to keep up appearances, she would have ensured that he received proper training to minimize the risk of him succombing to a demon. Proper training equals the circle of magi.

There is no responsibility to turn innocent people to the official.

SalsaDMA wrote...
That the incident happened just goes to show that people not willing to get the proper training but think they can do things 'their way' without real knowledge of the issue or the inherent risks, seems like adequate proof that a formalized institution is required.

No, now there is your system, the chantry, which is broken, sick, and therefore unacceptable.

SalsaDMA wrote...
Just think of the havoc that would have been caused if none of the circle mages had attended proper training and were trying to bash out things themselves.

Like Morrigan? Probably they would had been abel to do nothing. Untrained mages are raw gems. They can't do anything else but show sigs of the talent. Connor needed Jowia and his book. Morrigan was taught by her mother.

And I haven't said there should not be mage school. Of course there should be mage school.

SalsaDMA wrote...
You don't just hand out small tactical WMDs to people on the street and then rely on them to 'do the right thing'. Doing so is asking for a disaster to happen. Connor incident was one demon, controlling a child. Figure out your self how much bigger the damage would be if every magic user ran the risk of not training in a controlled enviroment.

Untrained mage doesn't cast even the vulnerability spell.

SalsaDMA wrote...
There's a reason the templars are ready to kill the mages that undertake the harrowing. It's not just because they think it's fun to stab mages with a sword.

Templars kill innocent mages who are no threat to anything because they are uneducated fools, possibly fanatics and blood thirsty too. I don't want to even know what they do to females who has reached certain age.

Fereldans kill mages too dude. Wynne herself says for every mage in the circle tower theres another mage whos being ripped apart in some mob. The Chantry also trys to protect the mages as well as killing them if they are a blood mage or abomination.

 I've never seen them as harsh as your making them out to be. Sure corrupt and paranoid but alot of the folks in Chantry are pretty decent folk like Leliana and Lilly. The Templars are pretty much the only ones who go out and kill mages and even they're taught to act like gentlemen. Didn't you ever talk to Alistair? He was raised by Templars and he doesn't seem like he was taught on how to properly rape a mage.
 
And the Lothering Chantry stayed behind to help protect the remaining villagers anyway they could. Does that sound evil to you? Just because one sect kills mages you gotta lable everyone in the Chantry as evil?

Theres no in game proof that they abuse mages either.

I don't care what Wynne says. She is OP mage but I will just kill the abdomination/hypocrit/traitor on sight. After that I have wild sex with Morrigan.

Chantry is evil. Giving food to the poor while killing innocent does not make you good. If it would be so, every mass murderer or rapist would have good days. Chantry have some good people, this I have said before, who have some hope and are not yet beyond help.* Because of that I don't call storming the whole chantry.

Alistair was not very suitable to become a templar. He had too good sense of justice. He considered himself lucky he was recruited to the Grey Wardens by the beard dude. Alistair was those who had hope - but I saw the poisoning happened on him too.



* Those will make the new chantry which does NOT state mages are evil, and every chantry will have at least one mage showing that to the people, and who heals people for free.

Modifié par moilami, 26 janvier 2011 - 09:50 .

[Louis_Cypher]

moilami wrote...
There was chantry and its sick methods and worthless "training" -> Connor's mother did not want to send Connor into chantry training -> Connor's mother never sent Connor to Chantry training -> Connor incident happened.

In a system where there was no sick chantry but proper school for mages:

Connor's mother wanted to send Connor into mage school -> Connor incident never happened.

Connor's mother sends Connor to mage school -> Eamon gets sick -> Connor comes home on compassionate leave -> Connor tries to heal father -> Connor, being not even close to fully trained, fails -> Connor incident happens.

Replacing the circle system with a "humane" system which is optional and allows continued family contact turns EVERY kid with a sick father into a potential Connor.  By making the system mandatory, and cutting apprentices off from their families, the chantry is preventing incidents like that, except in the unusual cases where a parent manages to hide a child's talent.

[SalsaDMA]

moilami wrote...

The Water God wrote...

moilami wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Connor happened because his mother couldn't cope with the responsibility of dealing with a hard choice.

Interesting point, but you can't blame people they can't cope with whatever government say, can you? After all the government is for people and not the other way around like in Soviet Union. The same goes in feudalism. The king is for people and not the other way around.

SalsaDMA wrote...
In fact, I'd even go so far as to say that she is directly to blame through not treating magic with the attention and care that it required, but tried to fix things with any random tool she stumbled upon (a non-circle mage).

She can hardly be blamed of not being a puppet for chantry. Also she was unlucky to stumple upon Jowia and not on some Mage Liberation Front mage taking her son away to safety, and later when the boy would had matured and understood the situation the boy now man could had made a choise to join on Mage Liberation Front or go to Chantry. Or whatever.

SalsaDMA wrote...
Had she not been neglecting her responsibility for her son, instead of trying to keep up appearances, she would have ensured that he received proper training to minimize the risk of him succombing to a demon. Proper training equals the circle of magi.

There is no responsibility to turn innocent people to the official.

SalsaDMA wrote...
That the incident happened just goes to show that people not willing to get the proper training but think they can do things 'their way' without real knowledge of the issue or the inherent risks, seems like adequate proof that a formalized institution is required.

No, now there is your system, the chantry, which is broken, sick, and therefore unacceptable.

SalsaDMA wrote...
Just think of the havoc that would have been caused if none of the circle mages had attended proper training and were trying to bash out things themselves.

Like Morrigan? Probably they would had been abel to do nothing. Untrained mages are raw gems. They can't do anything else but show sigs of the talent. Connor needed Jowia and his book. Morrigan was taught by her mother.

And I haven't said there should not be mage school. Of course there should be mage school.

SalsaDMA wrote...
You don't just hand out small tactical WMDs to people on the street and then rely on them to 'do the right thing'. Doing so is asking for a disaster to happen. Connor incident was one demon, controlling a child. Figure out your self how much bigger the damage would be if every magic user ran the risk of not training in a controlled enviroment.

Untrained mage doesn't cast even the vulnerability spell.

SalsaDMA wrote...
There's a reason the templars are ready to kill the mages that undertake the harrowing. It's not just because they think it's fun to stab mages with a sword.

Templars kill innocent mages who are no threat to anything because they are uneducated fools, possibly fanatics and blood thirsty too. I don't want to even know what they do to females who has reached certain age.

Fereldans kill mages too dude. Wynne herself says for every mage in the circle tower theres another mage whos being ripped apart in some mob. The Chantry also trys to protect the mages as well as killing them if they are a blood mage or abomination.

 I've never seen them as harsh as your making them out to be. Sure corrupt and paranoid but alot of the folks in Chantry are pretty decent folk like Leliana and Lilly. The Templars are pretty much the only ones who go out and kill mages and even they're taught to act like gentlemen. Didn't you ever talk to Alistair? He was raised by Templars and he doesn't seem like he was taught on how to properly rape a mage.
 
And the Lothering Chantry stayed behind to help protect the remaining villagers anyway they could. Does that sound evil to you? Just because one sect kills mages you gotta lable everyone in the Chantry as evil?

Theres no in game proof that they abuse mages either.

I don't care what Wynne says. She is OP mage but I will just kill the abdomination/hypocrit/traitor on sight. After that I have wild sex with Morrigan.

Chantry is evil. Giving food to the poor while killing innocent does not make you good. If it would be so, every mass murderer or rapist would have good days. Chantry have some good people, this I have said before, who have some hope and are not yet beyond help.* Because of that I don't call storming the whole chantry.

Alistair was not very suitable to become a templar. He had too good sense of justice. He considered himself lucky he was recruited to the Grey Wardens by the beard dude. Alistair was those who had hope - but I saw the poisoning happened on him too.



* Those will make the new chantry which does NOT state mages are evil, and every chantry will have at least one mage showing that to the people, and who heals people for free.

Alistair was lucky because he didn't get turned into a drug addict, that's the only thing. And the drug addiction is specifically to make sure the templars doesn't decide they need to 'wipe out all mages' all of a sudden, or some other nefarious thing.

Instead he got 'you got 30 years left to live at the max, and WILL die either a violent or decidly unpleasant death' instead.

Plague or Colera, tbh, as far as choice go.

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

moilami wrote...

Blood-Lord Thanatos wrote...

Why doesn't Alistair confront me if I'm a Maleficar? I'm also an Arcane Warrior/Battlemage/Blood-Mage. I actually thought that I could recruit Jowan, when I rescued Arl Eamon.

Lol Jowan would had made a great NPC.*


*companion


Edit: By the way great beard on your portrait && I think I thought too I could recruit Jowan and who would teach blood magic. Yeah, I was WTF when I could not recruit Jowan.

Thanks , I am a great believer in the Power of a snappily dressed Maleficar. I even lol'd at alistair's jokes about templar fashion

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

Is it possible that Uldred had studied only the theory of Blood-Magic, but not the actual application or quirks of its use? I mean, Niall states that Uldred seemed to have misjudged his mental defenses against careless use of the Art of Blood-Magic. I'd have to look up the exact dialogue though.


Edit:  And what about Irving? he seems to know the signs and the techniques but never uses it himself.

Modifié par Blood-Lord Thanatos, 27 janvier 2011 - 07:03 .

[ladydesire]

Blood-Lord Thanatos wrote...

Is it possible that Uldred had studied only the theory of Blood-Magic, but not the actual application or quirks of its use? I mean, Niall states that Uldred seemed to have misjudged his mental defenses against careless use of the Art of Blood-Magic. I'd have to look up the exact dialogue though.

Actually, Niall wasn't really paying much attention until they all hit the wall; after that, what I recall him saying is that Uldred attempted to summon a demon. I doubt what Uldred had studied had prepared him for the battle of wills that followed.

Edit:  And what about Irving? he seems to know the signs and the techniques but never uses it himself.

Which is about what I would expect from the Circle's First Enchanter.

[Mudeye]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

I've been thinking for a little
while on this. But blood magic could in fact be the ethical form and not
the dark art the Chantry brands it as(And hypocritically uses with
phylacteries to track Apostates).

I was wondering why Blood Magic was so bad too. It has 4 spells.

Blood Magic : This lets you use your HP instead of Mana for spells.  That sounds risky but not evil.

Blood Sacrifice:  You drain HP from your party to heal yourself.  It seems sneaky, but you are always putting your party in harms way as it is, so how is that really any different.  They are constanly getting beaten up and injured for your hairbrained quests anyway.

Blood Wound:  A damage attack.  You've already got plenty of those.  Of course the twitching is a bit sinister.

Blood Control:  This makes the target fight for you.  Kind of a small scale version of Waking Nightmare.  Waking Nightmare makes lots of enemies fight for you.

Nobody seems to mind Animate Dead.   Zombies are people too?

Death syphon and Death Magic feed of the dead.  Not really any worse than fast food restaurants?

[Louis_Cypher]

Mudeye wrote...
I was wondering why Blood Magic was so bad too. It has 4 spells.

You can't assume that absolutely everything possible in the world is perfectly represented in the mechanics.  That's like complaining that Morrigan doesn't have a spell for that thing she does just before the ending.  Or that shapeshifters can't learn to do what Flemeth does.

[WhiteKnyght]

The name Maleficar is misused in Thedas.



"Foul and corrupt are they who have taken His gift and turned it against His children. They shall be called Maleficar"



The Chantry are the ones who have turned magic against the Maker's children. Not the blood mages.



Thus magical bigots are Maleficarum.



Not to mention in real life. Maleficarum was the name of a witch hunter's guide, not those they were hunting.

[Louis_Cypher]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

The name Maleficar is misused in Thedas.

"Foul and corrupt are they who have taken His gift and turned it against His children. They shall be called Maleficar"

The Chantry are the ones who have turned magic against the Maker's children. Not the blood mages.

Clearly SOME blood mages would meet the deserve the title of Maleficar.  Caladrius, for example.

Not to mention in real life. Maleficarum was the name of a witch hunter's guide, not those they were hunting.

I assume you're referring to the "Malleus Maleficarum".  However, Maleficarum in that title DOES refer to witches.  The other part "Malleus" means hammer; in context, the book is supposed to be a weapon against witches.

Of course, Maleficarum is simply a Latin compound word which could be literally translated "evildoers".  

[Callidus Thorn]

I don't see Blood magic as evil, anymore than a sword or a bow is evil. It's the use to which it is put that determines that for the most part, in my opinion.

With regards to the Uldred possession detail mentioned, I would suspect that since blood magic came from demons, perhaps it inherently weakens a persons defenses against possession. Just a thought

Modifié par Callidus Thorn, 29 janvier 2011 - 01:30 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Except for the fact that there are at least three claimed origins for blood magic and thats only one of them. Just because demons can teach it doesn't mean it originated from them.



Some also claim the old god Dumat taught it to the Tevinter Magisters, others say it came from the ancient elves.

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

How do we know that Dumat may or may not have been dragon possessed by a Pride Demon?

[a1021]

blood magic is evil because it uses life force. it doesn't even matter if it is your own or anothers life force. life should be inherently sacred. you are burning one of the sacred powers of the universe to power some measly spells. that is evil.

in regard to other spells: drain life just carries over life force from one being to another, animate dead infuses a dead body with a demon and death magic is the same as drain life, only it takes the residual life force from the recently dead. ture, all damage spells can destroy life force, but that is just a normal condition of reality. even a burnt up body leaves ashes and other remains. blood magic annihilates life force and turns it into raw magical power.

and as soon as you see the sacrifice of life for power as something acceptable, you are already corrupted by blood magic.

[shatteredstar56]

a1021 wrote...

blood magic is evil because it uses life force. it doesn't even matter if it is your own or anothers life force. life should be inherently sacred. you are burning one of the sacred powers of the universe to power some measly spells. that is evil.
in regard to other spells: drain life just carries over life force from one being to another, animate dead infuses a dead body with a demon and death magic is the same as drain life, only it takes the residual life force from the recently dead. ture, all damage spells can destroy life force, but that is just a normal condition of reality. even a burnt up body leaves ashes and other remains. blood magic annihilates life force and turns it into raw magical power.
and as soon as you see the sacrifice of life for power as something acceptable, you are already corrupted by blood magic.

But would it be evil to use the life force of your own person? Or to use the life forces of the darkspawn? You could augment it to take residual energy from plants, insects, and animals around you too. What if you took enough so as not to kill them but to help you?

[Callidus Thorn]

I don't think it's ever mentioned that blood magic shortens the user's lifespan, actually the opposite was mentioned in warden's keep. The drain on their health isn't permanent, otherwise the tevinter imperium wouldn't have used it, nor would any mage if it just made them weaker. It seems more like using blood as fuel as opposed to lyrium, not using a person's life force to power spells.

Modifié par Callidus Thorn, 03 février 2011 - 12:14 .

[a1021]

shatteredstar56 wrote...
But would it be evil to use the life force of your own person? Or to use the life forces of the darkspawn? You could augment it to take residual energy from plants, insects, and animals around you too. What if you took enough so as not to kill them but to help you?

is your own life force worth nothing? in my opinion it is as much worth as any other's.
i don't know about darkspawn. they seem to be using their taint to fuel spells anyway...

@Callidus Thorn:
then why can't you use old blood or blood from the dead for blood magic? you can't just use "blood potions" or something as fuel. you can't even properly heal while using blood magic, because it sucks on your life.

[shatteredstar56]

a1021 wrote...


is your own life force worth nothing? in my opinion it is as much worth as any other's.
i don't know about darkspawn. they seem to be using their taint to fuel spells anyway...

@Callidus Thorn:
then why can't you use old blood or blood from the dead for blood magic? you can't just use "blood potions" or something as fuel. you can't even properly heal while using blood magic, because it sucks on your life.

Since you are making the choice to give it up, then yes.  Taking it by force is very unethical, as with anything.  If the person acquieses though, then it's hardly an unethical choice.  Power has to come from somewhere, is it so different from taking lyrium?  Lyrium is addictive, and leashes the templars, especially, to the Chantry.  I find that much more unethical then a blood mage who dabbled and used his abilities to free himself and his friends.

[WhiteKnyght]

Louis_Cypher wrote...

moilami wrote...
There was chantry and its sick methods and worthless "training" -> Connor's mother did not want to send Connor into chantry training -> Connor's mother never sent Connor to Chantry training -> Connor incident happened.

In a system where there was no sick chantry but proper school for mages:

Connor's mother wanted to send Connor into mage school -> Connor incident never happened.

Connor's mother sends Connor to mage school -> Eamon gets sick -> Connor comes home on compassionate leave -> Connor tries to heal father -> Connor, being not even close to fully trained, fails -> Connor incident happens.

Replacing the circle system with a "humane" system which is optional and allows continued family contact turns EVERY kid with a sick father into a potential Connor.  By making the system mandatory, and cutting apprentices off from their families, the chantry is preventing incidents like that, except in the unusual cases where a parent manages to hide a child's talent.

The Connor incident happened because Connor went through Jowan's books on blood magic, then the demon appeared in his dreams(I took the time to speak with Connor in the second floor before going to the circle). If Isolde had sent Connor to the tower instead of hiring Jowan he wouldn't have access to that material and they would have taught him the danger of dealing with demons.

Also if Isolde hadn't needed an Apostate, Loghain wouldn't have been able to have Jowan poison him.

[Kahmal the templar]

Then weapons are unethical, its just depends why and how you use it. You male it ethical or not

[skannerz22]

blood magic fails anyways better off with arcanist more spell power

[Kahmal the templar]

But cold magic let you summon spirits

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

well, spirit healers do summon spirits, except the spirits don't fight for them. Fade Spirits, unlike demons, don't often cross the veil.



(Does that seem right to you?)

[jeyru]

This is my first post on a dragon age forum ever =P
it's the same post i put on the dragon age wiki site, so the points in this post mirror or take a lot from what other people say. just a heads up in advance!

Primal spells utilize elemental effects that damage others. Creation spells have a branch (paralyze branch) that control targets - along with summoning a stinging swarm that also damages. Spirit spells have the devastating walking bomb branch of spells, the mage extinguishing mana clash spell, and the all powerful crushing prison spell. Entropy spells include a range of damaging spells specifically designed to debilitate and manipulate targets (enemy goes to sleep and then dies from a nightmare - not to mention the hex lines). The only difference between the main schools of magic and the school of blood magic are what powers them (mana versus blood). Even then, the main schools of magic have spells such as death magic and death siphon that draw from the energy of the fallen to restore health and mana respectively, much in the same way the spell blood sacrifice restores health. Within the context of the dragon age universe, most magic spells from any school can be used against enemy targets. However, the question still remains - is blood magic inherently evil. Given the facts and nature of the other schools of magic, NO. Blood magic is just another form of magic. One can argue that it is a school learned from demons from the universe of dragon age. Demons within the dragon age universe have proven time and again to be a evil, in the sense that they want to feed off of humans or control humans in order to experience Thedas (i.e. taking a host body, which is morally reprehensible). You can argue that it is a natural thing for demons to do, like viruses, but I am sure that you wouldn't want to lose your will to them. And it is because of this fear of losing one's control to something else that blood magic is viewed as an evil sort of magic. In the end, magic and spells are tools or abilities - nothing else. How the magic was used and for what purpose determines whether or not the CASTER was evil or benevolent. In the same way that a person who uses a gun to kill a murderer is celebrated as a hero, a mage who uses a heal spell on an ally is viewed as a lifesaver. I believe that a mage is "good" if he or she uses his or her own blood to cast a spell that controls an ogre to destroy other darkspawn in order to save his or her comapanions. If that same mage has the INTENT to take the blood of his or her allies to power spells without consent of said allies, then that action is evil. If the mage uses any magic to fight for a noble cause (such as dethroning tyrannical kings, destroying darkspawn, or eliminating other mages who seek to control entire populations to do their bidding "i.e. enslavement"), the magic was used for good intentions - the same way you use swords, axes, daggers, arrows, etc. The very second you use magic in order to benefit only yourself and your desires and not for the betterment of others, you have misused your power. "Magic exists to serve man and never to rule over him". Something the Tevinter magisters completely disregarded, and which the modern Chantry blindly and fanatically enforces. Black and white. Again, to finally restate it, magic is not inherently evil, magic is a tool. The intent and purpose for the tool is what is good or evil,

Also, you can argue that life is sacred. Yes, that's true, life is valuable. Any magic targets life in on form or another. Heal recovers life and health. elemental spells extinguish it. spirit spells deplete the spirit thereby depleting life. entropy skills like death magic suck up life to return life to the caster. How are these forms of manipulating life any different from how blood magic uses life to convert it into a spell. that's like arguing one type of poison was "more" morally wrong that another poison to coat your dagger with. XD

On a side note (again just keeping it in context with the Dragon Age universe), the Maker must be hardcore "face-palming" because of the way either side are using magic or dictating/controlling the use of magic. He sends down a tool/gift for the people to use to benefit one another and one side uses it to make themselves gods, while the other is completely abhors its usage. =P