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[LobselVith8]

During the debate I've been having elsewhere over the morality of the Chantry and the Circle, the discussion made me wonder how the actions of the Warden could potentially improve the lives of mages in Ferelden (and possibly across Thedas in DA2). I've been wondering what choices might enpower the future of mages in Ferelden in DA (especially since our choices are going to be imported).
- I've read that the Magi epilogue is likely bugged (like the City Elf Epilogue is) if Irving doesn't acknowledge the boon during the royal ceremony (and he never has for me) although I wonder if culling the Circle and then asking for the boon would make any difference (since it prompts the "Cullen is Crazy" epilogue slide).
- Would the use of the mages in Redcliffe to resolve the Connor issue have any sort of impact on Arl Eamon or Teegan (considering how Connor is a mage and that the WH map indicates how nobles are looking to Redcliffe instead of Denerim)?
- I've read that Dagna will run off to the Circle if you tell her it was anulled so she can help see it rebuilt. Does this still prompt the independent Circle of Orzammar? I'm curious because Dagna's entry into the Circle and her research lead to an independent Circle of Orzammar (and Orzammar is going to still be standing with Bhelen as King), which I think is a great thing for mages everywhere. Would the presence of mages (who, as Duncan admitted, are well equipped to battle the darkspawn) in Orzammar supplant the need for golems (by siding with Paragon Branka)?
- While I don't share Kolgrim's views about the Dragon Andraste or condone his actions against the Knights of Redcliffe (although the epilogue's mention of "new converts" seems to indicate that this type of behavior comes to an end), Haven presents the only real community of humans and mages who are presently living together in DA. Securing the Ashes could enpower the Chantry (which I think is a problem, considering how the Chantry treats mages across the Andrastian nation) while their destruction would prevent the Chantry from having another tool in their arsenal.

I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks.

[Xilizhra]

Altogether, I think I agree with your assessment. The mages could well be helpful to Redcliffe's image if they fix Connor's issue without bloodshed, but remember if you go this route and help Kolgrim with the Ashes, there's no way to keep Wynne in your party.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

LobselVith8 wrote...

During the debate I've been having elsewhere over the morality of the Chantry and the Circle, the discussion made me wonder how the actions of the Warden could potentially improve the lives of mages in Ferelden (and possibly across Thedas in DA2). I've been wondering what choices might enpower the future of mages in Ferelden in DA (especially since our choices are going to be imported).
- I've read that the Magi epilogue is likely bugged (like the City Elf Epilogue is) if Irving doesn't acknowledge the boon during the royal ceremony (and he never has for me) although I wonder if culling the Circle and then asking for the boon would make any difference (since it prompts the "Cullen is Crazy" epilogue slide).

It's bugged if Alistair is the one granting the boon instead of Anora.

- Would the use of the mages in Redcliffe to resolve the Connor issue have any sort of impact on Arl Eamon or Teegan (considering how Connor is a mage and that the WH map indicates how nobles are looking to Redcliffe instead of Denerim)?

probably not, because people won't forget the Connor episode, and see it as proof mages need to be locked up.

- I've read that Dagna will run off to the Circle if you tell her it was anulled so she can help see it rebuilt. Does this still prompt the independent Circle of Orzammar? I'm curious because Dagna's entry into the Circle and her research lead to an independent Circle of Orzammar (and Orzammar is going to still be standing with Bhelen as King), which I think is a great thing for mages everywhere. Would the presence of mages (who, as Duncan admitted, are well equipped to battle the darkspawn) in Orzammar supplant the need for golems (by siding with Paragon Branka)?

No, no circle in Orzammar ending, I think she just goes and helps them renew the circle.

- While I don't share Kolgrim's views about the Dragon Andraste or condone his actions against the Knights of Redcliffe (although the epilogue's mention of "new converts" seems to indicate that this type of behavior comes to an end), Haven presents the only real community of humans and mages who are presently living together in DA. Securing the Ashes could enpower the Chantry (which I think is a problem, considering how the Chantry treats mages across the Andrastian nation) while their destruction would prevent the Chantry from having another tool in their arsenal.

Or simply leaving them alone and letting their location remain hidden. Haven is peopled by cultists. there are other places in thedas where mages and non mages live together relatively well (Rivain, the Chasind, the Avvar, basically non-Andrastian places). I personally prefer not to give a cult of crazies additional power, any more than I want the Chantry to. I find sending Genitivi home or killing him a better option than defiling them.

I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks.

There really is nothing you can do that isn't already known that could advance the mage's position. Circle in Orzammar, Free the Circle, Hide/defile ashes, ect. Boycotting Chanter's board quests, doing mage's collective and not selling them out, ect.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Altogether, I think I agree with your assessment. The mages could well be helpful to Redcliffe's image if they fix Connor's issue without bloodshed, but remember if you go this route and help Kolgrim with the Ashes, there's no way to keep Wynne in your party.

I tend to wait until after for the Urn quest is done for Wynne (since meeting in Leliana in camp I can use the persuasion option), but I've been mulling over my choices since I want to revise my canon run. Wynne's quest in Awakening provides me amusement, and I like hearing about the meeting in Cumberland - I hope it's an issue that's addressed in DA2.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

It's bugged if Alistair is the one granting the boon instead of Anora.

So if Alistair and Anora are married, but Loghain is spared and Anora is the one who gives me the choice of boon, then the Magi boon isn't bugged? (I know that Alistair/Anora is the reason why the elven Bann epilogue is bugged if Alistair gives the Warden the boon).

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

probably not, because people won't forget the Connor episode, and see it as proof mages need to be locked up.

You have a point. I can't believe the comments some of the Redcliffe guards make about the boy being cursed with magic, despite my mage saving their lives.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

No, no circle in Orzammar ending, I think she just goes and helps them renew the circle.

Thanks, I don't tend to endorse Cullen's suggestion about the Circle so I was never certain.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Or simply leaving them alone and letting their location remain hidden. Haven is peopled by cultists. there are other places in thedas where mages and non mages live together relatively well (Rivain, the Chasind, the Avvar, basically non-Andrastian places). I personally prefer not to give a cult of crazies additional power, any more than I want the Chantry to. I find sending Genitivi home or killing him a better option than defiling them.

You mean sending Genitivi home immediately and never speaking to him again?

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

There really is nothing you can do that isn't already known that could advance the mage's position. Circle in Orzammar, Free the Circle, Hide/defile ashes, ect. Boycotting Chanter's board quests, doing mage's collective and not selling them out, ect.

I know. I'm just thinking long-term (if the DA:O save is basically used to import into sequels and the like - I like the thought that my choices mattered).

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...


So if Alistair and Anora are married, but Loghain is spared and Anora is the one who gives me the choice of boon, then the Magi boon isn't bugged? (I know that Alistair/Anora is the reason why the elven Bann epilogue is bugged if Alistair gives the Warden the boon).

Yeah. basically a reverse bug of the city elf. If Anora gives the mage boon, it sticks. If Alistair does, it won't. I ran into this problem myself.


[quote]You have a point. I can't believe the comments some of the Redcliffe guards make about the boy being cursed with magic, despite my mage saving their lives.[/quote]

Yeah, it doesn't matter to most people that your awesomest Warden, who is saving their sorry fat from the fire, also happens to be a mage. They still think the Maker would be happy if they killed them all.

Which is one of the many reasons my canon mage decided her fellow surfacers could all go to hell. Hail Bhelen!


[quote]Thanks, I don't tend to endorse Cullen's suggestion about the Circle so I was never certain.[/quote]

I've done this once, and it was bugged in the epilogue, I got the card where she starts a circle in Orzammar. But I knew it was a bug. If the circle is anulled, the epilogue card should state Dagna helped rebuild the Circle and something else. But no dwarven circle.



[quote]You mean sending Genitivi home immediately and never speaking to him again?[/quote]

yeah. Or, for more extreme characters, whip out the murderknife and get medieval on him (the cutscene is great!)

But preserve the ashes, but do not allow the word to get out. And for extra credit, leave the dragon alive.



[quote]I know. I'm just thinking long-term (if the DA:O save is basically used to import into sequels and the like - I like the thought that my choices mattered).[/quote]

Supposedly, it will. Though as far as effecting mages overall, I think that's limited to what you do with the Circle than anything else.

[Augustei]

When freedom from the circle is ever tried to be established normally an Exalted March would be declaired. The Chantry tends to view itself as doing the right thing in keeping the Circles Monitored. I mean its very general what is said when asking for more freedom. It doesn't state whether they will just be allowed more basic freedoms or pull away from the chantry entirely. The Chantry wouldn't really like either of those things but im sure with the pulled away entirely thing which they are trying to do in cumberland Exalted March would definitly be declared.



However due to the plot of Dragon age II I think the chantry will have its hands full in Kirkwall and the Wardens decision to give the mages more freedom will actually come into effect.



Ferelden Politics do little to sway the chantries influence however so if the problems for the chantry in Kirkwall weren't happening I dont think the events of Redcliffe would make any difference.



The Indepent Circle of Orzamaar if it were to happen would probably still go ahead as well due to the Kirkwall issue and prohaps even without Kirkwalls issues since Orzamaar is pretty well defended and Fortified underground so they could close their gates and have a few golems and soldiers to stop the invaders (Regardless of the Anvil choice. They still have a few golems under control of the shaperate)



A Community of Humans and mages living togeather outside of Haven is likely because one of the codex's states there are many dragon cults hiding in the remote places of the world so it is likely there are more places like this.



Perhaps even in Rivain which isn't really completely under the Chanty's rule as they are living with Elves and treat them quite equally... However the Qun has some major influence in northern Rivain so maybe the situation is worse there for them.



The Situation of how nobles are looking to redcliffe instead of denerim I think is only a temporary one due to Denerim being devistated towards the blight. I mean Redcliffe has a port in a lake which means they can only trade with the Circle tower really.. Denerim is on the coast of a sea and can trade easily with other nations and so could easily gain the wealth in time to repair itself.



So I think Denerim shall remain the centre of Politics, Trade and Power of Ferelden

[Face of Evil]

LobselVith8 wrote...

- While I don't share Kolgrim's views about the Dragon Andraste or condone his actions against the Knights of Redcliffe (although the epilogue's mention of "new converts" seems to indicate that this type of behavior comes to an end), Haven presents the only real community of humans and mages who are presently living together in DA. Securing the Ashes could enpower the Chantry (which I think is a problem, considering how the Chantry treats mages across the Andrastian nation) while their destruction would prevent the Chantry from having another tool in their arsenal.

I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks.

Yes, they're living together in a murderous dragon cult that practices human sacrifices while they wait around for their giant flying lizard to ravage the countryside.

I can see that people thinking that the Chantry is bad, but the Disciples of Andraste are hardly a better alternative.

Hide the ashes if you don't want to assist the Chantry, but don't defile them in the name of Kolgrim and his band of lunatics.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 24 janvier 2011 - 04:40 .

[LobselVith8]

Face of Evil wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

- While I don't share Kolgrim's views about the Dragon Andraste or condone his actions against the Knights of Redcliffe (although the epilogue's mention of "new converts" seems to indicate that this type of behavior comes to an end), Haven presents the only real community of humans and mages who are presently living together in DA. Securing the Ashes could enpower the Chantry (which I think is a problem, considering how the Chantry treats mages across the Andrastian nation) while their destruction would prevent the Chantry from having another tool in their arsenal.

I'm curious to see what everyone else thinks.

Yes, they're living together in a murderous dragon cult that practices human sacrifices while they wait around for their giant flying lizard to ravage the countryside.

I can see that people thinking that the Chantry is bad, but the Disciples of Andraste are hardly a better alternative.

Hide the ashes if you don't want to assist the Chantry, but don't defile them in the name of Kolgrim and his band of lunatics.

They're a society of mages and non-mages living together in a continent that's dominated by Andrastian nations where mages are demonized, imprisoned, and murdered simply for being mages. I don't excuse what was done to the Knights of Redcliffe, but from the Epilogue it seems that they stopped killing outsiders - probably because it was an "outsider" who helped them with the Urn to become their Knight-Chhampion - since they gain "new converts;" new converts who would abandon any and all anti-mage ideology to embrace a religion that endorses and promotes magic and mages.

[Louis_Cypher]

LobselVith8 wrote...
They're a society of mages and non-mages living together in a continent that's dominated by Andrastian nations where mages are demonized, imprisoned, and murdered simply for being mages. I don't excuse what was done to the Knights of Redcliffe, but from the Epilogue it seems that they stopped killing outsiders - probably because it was an "outsider" who helped them with the Urn to become their Knight-Chhampion - since they gain "new converts;" new converts who would abandon any and all anti-mage ideology to embrace a religion that endorses and promotes magic and mages.

The High Dragon is a catastrophe waiting to happen.  Even if you think the cult can become reasonable, the High Dragon is a problem.  Heck, will Haven survive once she goes on her once-a-century rampage of "smoldering devastation"?

[LobselVith8]

Louis_Cypher wrote...

The High Dragon is a catastrophe waiting to happen.  Even if you think the cult can become reasonable, the High Dragon is a problem.  Heck, will Haven survive once she goes on her once-a-century rampage of "smoldering devastation"?

That's a good question. Kolgrim's ancestor began worship of her as the reincarnated Andraste. I'm assuming that if she was that dangerous, then Haven would have been destroyed centuries ago. Given how she pretty much just rests on top of that hill, it doesn't seem like she's wants much except to be left alone - that's the problem in the other Epilogue, after all.

There's no evidence that she's caused a rampage before, or will cause one again. She goes on a rampage if the temple is disturbed by an influx of pilgrims, and it's possible that she goes on a rampage in the pro-Disciples Epilogue if there are people checking out Genitivi's claim about the Urn or trying to find out what happened to him. It seems like she merely wants to be left alone to rest.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

LobselVith8 wrote...
There's no evidence that she's caused a rampage before, or will cause one again. She goes on a rampage if the temple is disturbed by an influx of pilgrims, and it's possible that she goes on a rampage in the pro-Disciples Epilogue if there are people checking out Genitivi's claim about the Urn or trying to find out what happened to him. It seems like she merely wants to be left alone to rest.

She has gone on a rampage before. She is most likely the very dragon the Dragon Age was named for. She was rampaging the Orlesian countryside near the frostbacks. 

Which is actually why my main canon does not kill her.

[Xilizhra]

And the ashes are an all holy relic that was widely believed to be just a myth, defiling them would be like if you and your friends decided to take a ****** on Jesus's holy grail.

Maybe they're a holy relic. Maybe they were infused with the lyrium veins running through the mountain.

[TheBlackBaron]

It's not necessary to side with the cultists and defile the Ashes if you want to keep them out of the hands of the Chantry - just send Genetivi back to Denerim after he leads you to the temple, or if you want to be really sure, kill him.



The whole mess with the Cult of Andraste and the High Dragon they're worshiping is pretty fracked. Even if they do start accepting recruits, the fact remains that these are still not nice people, and lest you forget, Kolgrim is the one that gives Reaver specialization. They may be more tolerant of mages as a whole, but that just makes them equal opportunity evil.



Also: high dragon by nature go on those rampages from time to time. I believe Skadi is correct in saying that this particular dragon is the one that gave the Dragon Age its name.

[Face of Evil]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

She has gone on a rampage before. She is most likely the very dragon the Dragon Age was named for. She was rampaging the Orlesian countryside near the frostbacks. 

Doubtful. The Codexes state that high dragons emerge every century or so to go on a rampage. We're only thirty years into the new age, and since the High Dragon leaves her lair after the Warden defiles the Ashes, it's too soon for it to go on a killing spree.

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe they're a holy relic. Maybe they were infused with the lyrium veins running through the mountain.

Nonetheless, the crazy person who's heading the violent dragon cult thinks they're important. If you defile the Ashes, all you're doing is encouraging these troglodytes and their stupid beliefs.

These cultists believe that their human prophet who died centuries ago has returned in the form of a GIANT FLYING LIZARD. And the best way to serve said giant flying lizard is to kill anyone who finds out about her while gulping down dragon blood slurpees.

THESE. PEOPLE. ARE. INSANE. Stop them now, lest they be allowed to breed, and Ferelden is forever plagued by generations of their idiotic spawn.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 26 janvier 2011 - 08:38 .

[Face of Evil]

EDIT: Whoops, double post.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 26 janvier 2011 - 08:33 .

[Augustei]

Face of Evil wrote...
THESE. PEOPLE. ARE. INSANE. Stop them now, lest they be allowed to breed, and Ferelden is forever plagued by generations of their idiotic spawn.

LOL are you talking about the Dragons or the Cultists?

[Face of Evil]

Yes.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 26 janvier 2011 - 09:20 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Face of Evil wrote...


Doubtful. The Codexes state that high dragons emerge every century or so to go on a rampage. We're only thirty years into the new age, and since the High Dragon leaves her lair after the Warden defiles the Ashes, it's too soon for it to go on a killing spree.

Then you obviously haven't read the Stolen Throne.

[Face of Evil]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Then you obviously haven't read the Stolen Throne.

I have. The dragon's appearance occurs at the end of the book at the dawn of the new century, just as Loghain is about to attack the Orlesian forces at the River Dane. There's no indication that dragon and "Andraste" are one and the same.

It could just as easily be the high dragon from The Calling, or even the high dragon from the Dragonbone Wastes in Awakening.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Face of Evil wrote...

I have. The dragon's appearance occurs at the end of the book at the dawn of the new century, just as Loghain is about to attack the Orlesian forces at the River Dane. There's no indication that dragon and "Andraste" are one and the same.

Given that:

1. High Dragons are very rare, and
2. The Dragon that Loghain saw was flying over the frostbacks, in the region where haven is.

It is more than likely the dragon Loghain and Rowan watched was "Andraste".

It could just as easily be the high dragon from The Calling, or even the high dragon from the Dragonbone Wastes in Awakening.

No, it would not. The Dragon in the Calling, since Duncan ended up killing it. Nor would it necessarily be the one in the dragon bone wastes, which is far from the frostbacks, and Dragons don't like traveling that much.

[Face of Evil]

The Frostback Mountains border Orlais and the High Dragon scoured Orlais' countryside. Is it not conceivable that the dragon passed over the mountain range on its way to munch on Orlesian peasants?



Again, I do not believe that Andraste and the dragon from The Stolen Throne are one and the same because the Codexes state that dragons only go on a rampage once a century. As Origins is set thirty years after the end of The Stolen Throne and "Andraste" rampages across Ferelden once Origins is complete (provided the Ashes are defiled and Genitivi is killed), that does not fit in with established knowledge about dragons.



Regarding the high dragon from The Calling, the novel takes place years AFTER The Stolen Throne, so the creature could very well be the same.



And regarding the High Dragon of Awakening, dragons do go to the Dragonbone Wastes to die, so it's concievable that's why the creature appeared there. It certainly didn't seem to be co-operating with the darkspawn, given how the Children attack it.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 26 janvier 2011 - 07:47 .

[Xilizhra]

Nonetheless, the crazy person who's heading the violent dragon cult thinks they're important. If you defile the Ashes, all you're doing is encouraging these troglodytes and their stupid beliefs.



These cultists believe that their human prophet who died centuries ago has returned in the form of a GIANT FLYING LIZARD. And the best way to serve said giant flying lizard is to kill anyone who finds out about her while gulping down dragon blood slurpees.

It's a magical world. Their beliefs are no more irrational than the mainstream Chantry's (i.e. pretty damned irrational, but still not provable either way). Only their actions are problematic (very problematic, I admit). I do, however, think that with time and the aid of the Warden, their violent nature could be ameliorated.

[Giggles_Manically]

Xilizhra wrote...

Nonetheless, the crazy person who's heading the violent dragon cult thinks they're important. If you defile the Ashes, all you're doing is encouraging these troglodytes and their stupid beliefs.

These cultists believe that their human prophet who died centuries ago has returned in the form of a GIANT FLYING LIZARD. And the best way to serve said giant flying lizard is to kill anyone who finds out about her while gulping down dragon blood slurpees.

It's a magical world. Their beliefs are no more irrational than the mainstream Chantry's (i.e. pretty damned irrational, but still not provable either way). Only their actions are problematic (very problematic, I admit). I do, however, think that with time and the aid of the Warden, their violent nature could be ameliorated.

THE HORSE SAYS:
ONLY IN A WORLD OF DOUBLE COMPLETE RAINBOWS AND CHOCOLATE UNICORNS!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Face of Evil wrote...

The Frostback Mountains border Orlais and the High Dragon scoured Orlais' countryside. Is it not conceivable that the dragon passed over the mountain range on its way to munch on Orlesian peasants?

Again, I do not believe that Andraste and the dragon from The Stolen Throne are one and the same because the Codexes state that dragons only go on a rampage once a century. As Origins is set thirty years after the end of The Stolen Throne and "Andraste" rampages across Ferelden once Origins is complete (provided the Ashes are defiled and Genitivi is killed), that does not fit in with established knowledge about dragons.

Regarding the high dragon from The Calling, the novel takes place years AFTER The Stolen Throne, so the creature could very well be the same.

And regarding the High Dragon of Awakening, dragons do go to the Dragonbone Wastes to die, so it's concievable that's why the creature appeared there. It certainly didn't seem to be co-operating with the darkspawn, given how the Children attack it.

Consider this: for centuries, dragons were considered extinct, because the Nevarrans had wiped out so many, and none had been seen in hundreds of years.

Suddenly, the first Dragon seen in hundreds of years is seen rampaging over the frostback mountains and into Orlais. First Dragon seen in ages. Thus naming the age.

Since Dragons are so rare that they are thought to be extinct, then the likelyhood of there being two dragons living in the Frostbacks is low. And if the Dragon seen was the one we encounter in the Dragonbone wastes, then why would it have flown all the way to Orlais, when there was a swath of perfectly good prey living right around it? The Dragon would have devestated alot in it's path before it even reached the mountains. Yet this did not happen: it was the Frostbacks and those areas in Orlais near them, that got rampaged.

The high dragon in the dragon bone wastes could have come from anywhere in Thedas.

The likelyhood of the Dragon Andraste and the dragon of Dragon Age being the same is pretty high. And just because she went on a rampage only 30 years ago does not preclude her being woken to do so again. Hoards of pilgrims disturbing her lair and getting close to her offspring would certainly cause her to go on a rampage. The cult could also have done something to "awaken" her to go forth rampaging again.