55 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Nonetheless, the crazy person who's heading the violent dragon cult thinks they're important. If you defile the Ashes, all you're doing is encouraging these troglodytes and their stupid beliefs.

These cultists believe that their human prophet who died centuries ago has returned in the form of a GIANT FLYING LIZARD. And the best way to serve said giant flying lizard is to kill anyone who finds out about her while gulping down dragon blood slurpees.

It's a magical world. Their beliefs are no more irrational than the mainstream Chantry's (i.e. pretty damned irrational, but still not provable either way). Only their actions are problematic (very problematic, I admit). I do, however, think that with time and the aid of the Warden, their violent nature could be ameliorated.

THE HORSE SAYS:
ONLY IN A WORLD OF DOUBLE COMPLETE RAINBOWS AND CHOCOLATE UNICORNS!

Well, really. If you're going to believe in a non-falsifiable god who punishes the whole world for the actions of a few dlckheaded mages, you may as well believe in a dragon.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 26 janvier 2011 - 08:09 .

[Face of Evil]

You and I are on different wavelengths, Skadi. I'm specifically referring to the ending where the Ashes are defiled, Kolgrim is spared and Genitivi is killed. "Andraste" rampages across Ferelden, killing thousands.

Xilizhra wrote...

It's a magical world. Their beliefs are no more irrational than the mainstream Chantry's (i.e. pretty damned irrational, but still not provable either way).

Yeah, I'll stick with the Chantry, thanks. I've never cared for ritualistic human sacrifice that much. The after-parties are kind of a downer.

Xilizhra wrote...

I do, however, think that with time and the aid of the Warden, their violent nature could be ameliorated.

I think centuries of isolation, inbreeding, religious fanaticism and consumption of aforementioned dragon blood slurpees have erased any chance at "ameliorating" the Disciples.

My solution to the problem — wholesale slaughter — is more fun and nets me a pretty sweet suit of dragonscale armor. Hurray!

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's a magical world. Their beliefs are no more irrational than the mainstream Chantry's (i.e. pretty damned irrational, but still not provable either way). Only their actions are problematic (very problematic, I admit). I do, however, think that with time and the aid of the Warden, their violent nature could be ameliorated.

You mean, to improve the Disciples of Andraste? They seem to stop killing outsiders if the Urn is destroyed, but given the destruction of the countryside by Andraste and the blood sacrifices that they initiated, it's difficult to say for certain. I have to admit that they are a society of mages and non-mages who endorse the use of magic and condone blood magic; the Grey Warden from the Circle of Magi could want to preserve that. The only issue I see is Kolgrim, who is their leader (since his ancestor became the new "prophet" centuries ago.) I suppose if Genitivi is sent back to Denerim (to prevent the discovery of the Ashes by the Chantry) and Kolgrim is killed along with the Dragon Andraste, then their society would effectively be broken, they would be leaderless. Not sure how they would reconcile the destruction of their reincarnated Andraste with the death of their prophet, but it is certainly an opportunity - would they continue the blood sacrifices and killing outsiders when the practice has brought so much destruction? How would they perceive the Warden who slew their greatest warriors and mages, as well as their prophet and their god?

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, I'll stick with the Chantry, thanks. I've never cared for ritualistic human sacrifice that much. The after-parties are kind of a downer.

Like Exalted Marches are a barrel of laughs.

I think centuries of isolation, inbreeding, religious fanaticism and consumption of aforementioned dragon blood slurpees have erased any chance at "ameliorating" the Disciples.

No reason not to try. I can think of a few ways it could be done.

[Face of Evil]

Xilizhra wrote...

No reason not to try. I can think of a few ways it could be done.

I can think of a few reason for slaughtering all of the Disciples.

1) Their stupid beliefs are stupid.
2) They tried to kill me.
3) They killed many others.
4) Battle is fun.
5) Dragonscale Armor!

My logic is undeniable.

I believe they call that a "check mate" in tennis. No, don't bother arguing with me; it would only serve to embarrass you further.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 26 janvier 2011 - 08:42 .

[LobselVith8]

Face of Evil wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No reason not to try. I can think of a few ways it could be done.

I can think of a few reason for slaughtering all of the Disciples.

1) Their stupid beliefs are stupid.
2) They tried to kill me.
3) They killed many others.
4) Battle is fun.
5) Dragonscale Armor!

My logic is undeniable.

Except for the last one, I can imagine some of the Dalish elves wanting to attack members of the Andrastian Chantry for the very same reasons, i.e. the Dalish codex where templars were sent in to the Dales after they kicked out their missionaries, followed by the Exalted March on the Dales.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Face of Evil wrote...
1) Their stupid beliefs are stupid.

Says who? You? On what authority? Your own you say? Wrong answer. Next.

2) They tried to kill me.

YOU invaded their home, their lives, not the other way around. They tried to kill you because you were invading their territory despite demands by the guard you leave.

3) They killed many others.

And so have you.

4) Battle is fun.

So said Cailan.

5) Dragonscale Armor!

There's tons more better stuff in the game. The armor isn't that great, really, compared to other sets.

My logic is undeniable.

Undeniable in its weakness, absolutely.

[LobselVith8]

The Water God wrote...

Oghren's just full of crap, he doesn't know what hes talking about.

So the guardian is somehow being expoused to enough Lyrium somehow make him immortal but for some reason he has yet to go insane? There are other ways to become immortal in Dragon age but Lyrium is NOT one of them.

We know incredible little about lyrium compared to the dwarves. Dwarves are experts on lyrium, they're the ones who find it and refine it. There's no reason Oghren pointing out that there's a thick wall of lyrium that's affecting everything in the temple shouldn't be dismissed, especially when it provides the only rational explanation for the Guardian's longevity and the healing properties of the Urn.

[Xilizhra]

So the guardian is somehow being expoused to enough Lyrium somehow make him immortal but for some reason he has yet to go insane?

Who says he's not insane?

[jaikss]

The guardians longevity could also be explained by being bound to the ashes in a similar way Zathrian became ageless by binding himself to the spirit/curse.Would also explain the defiling of the ashes weakning him the way it does in DAO.

[shatteredstar56]

LobselVith8 wrote...



We know incredible little about lyrium compared to the dwarves. Dwarves are experts on lyrium, they're the ones who find it and refine it. There's no reason Oghren pointing out that there's a thick wall of lyrium that's affecting everything in the temple shouldn't be dismissed, especially when it provides the only rational explanation for the Guardian's longevity and the healing properties of the Urn.

Lyrium also screwed up dwarves like Sandal, and the shopkeeper near the Deep Roads.  So it would have an effect on anyone, given enough amount/exposure to it.
I don't see how lyrium doesn't add into it, since it gives mages extra power, and can cause delirium and confusion (example would be templar guarding the Denerim chantry.) 
The Guardian, I believe is a spirit.  He might have minor magic powers, but lyrium will only confuse and eventually kill a human, not lengthen the life.  It could provide healing powers, since when the character uses it, no matter whether it's a rogue, warrior, or mage, it gives you more mana and health.

[Augustei]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Face of Evil wrote...
1) Their stupid beliefs are stupid.

Says who? You? On what authority? Your own you say? Wrong answer. Next.

2) They tried to kill me.

YOU invaded their home, their lives, not the other way around. They tried to kill you because you were invading their territory despite demands by the guard you leave.

3) They killed many others.

And so have you.

4) Battle is fun.

So said Cailan.

5) Dragonscale Armor!

There's tons more better stuff in the game. The armor isn't that great, really, compared to other sets.

My logic is undeniable.

Undeniable in its weakness, absolutely.

1) Pfft, Right Answer more like it. They think that the random giant lizard is an ancient dead women who died out years ago and lets them care for a few of their young... What real evidence is there of this? Their Beliefs ARE stupid.

2) They tried to kill us BEFORE we went to their home outside the spoiled princess.

3) Yes we have, not out of some F*#ked up nescessity to preserve our home..
But out of Necessity of uniting the lands against the blights.

4) Random Pointless Statement.

5) Tis still good armor, and if there really is so few dragons left in the world then Dragonscale will just continue to gain more value over time. Tis awesome.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

[quote]XxDeonxX wrote...

1) Pfft, Right Answer more like it. They think that the random giant lizard is an ancient dead women who died out years ago and lets them care for a few of their young... What real evidence is there of this? Their Beliefs ARE stupid.[quote]

As opposed to worshiping an invisible being whom no one has evidence or proof of. A deity that supposedly turned it's back on the world in a tantrum because of the actions of a few, like a child in a tantrum. And then, of course, the belief that some barbarian babling about the Maker and leading armies is now said wife of said absentee deity.

And that is more lame than the cultists...how? Especially when the cultists "deity" is right in front of them, granting some of their boons.

[quote]2) They tried to kill us BEFORE we went to their home outside the spoiled princess. [/quote]

Because you, like Genitivi and the knights, won't ****** off and leave them alone, you keep trying to break into their home.

And the villagers didn't attack you until you went breaking into their homes, disrupting their religous services, and refusing their constant demands that you leave.

[quote]3) Yes we have, not out of some F*#ked up nescessity to preserve our home..
But out of Necessity of uniting the lands against the blights.[/quote]

Protecting one's home and culture is a f*cked up reason to kill people invading it? Really?

[quote]4) Random Pointless Statement.[/quote]

As is the statement battle is fun.

[quote]5) Tis still good armor, and if there really is so few dragons left in the world then Dragonscale will just continue to gain more value over time. Tis awesome.
[/quote]

Yes, and killing an endangered creature that did not attack you is always a good reason to become richer. because it's all about the Ka-ching. <_<

[Augustei]

1) Pretty much, there is a bit reason to doubt the possbility of the chantrys beliefs. But with the cultists.. there isn't possbility.. It just is.. Its F*#king stupid their ideals, so the comparison is "possibly bs and stupid, or definitly bs and stupid. the former being the cultists... inevitably you will disagree.
A big lizard that has no place as a diety as it was killed by a mortal man and does not speak or do anything other then sleep, go on a killing rampage and let them have a couple of its kids.

its the equivilent of owning a pet bat, and worshipping that as a
god. Like the dragon, you benfit from it when it takes a Sh*t because
you can sell or eat its guano (Yuck... people do it though). it does nothing but sleep, and doesn't
speak and it can be dangerous if you let it suck your blood if its a
vampire bat or you could get a disease if its a fruit bat.
So, Dangerous, Beneficial and at the same time.. Pretty damn useless to have as a diety.. Like the dragon [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]

2) Yeah because the vibe was obvious that this village was F*#ked up. The kid with the chanting and the human fingerbone.. The fact that people went missing near here and they were eager to ****** us off. Their revered Father. Do you also think that the people in The Wickerman were justified in killing the protagonist?

They could have just thrown Genetivi out. All evidence pointed to him being here. And when the vibe that things were wrong becomes clear and the fact that he should be here and isn't well.. yeah i think walking into the back room of a merchants place isnt that bad.. Not really barging in. Although the place with the alter is but I dont normally enter it first.
And y'know considering the fact that the same people aready trying to keep us away from the place we were yet to "Invade" already tried to kill us at the Inn. They attacked prior to us doing anything but asking questions.

3) Yes, yes it is f*#ked up.. Especially since we wern't Invading, simply walked into an open house.. If they didn't want us in there they could have locked it. and bartering with a merchant who was acting weird and we just walked into the back room. So yes, it was pretty stupid on their behalf

4) Agreed

5) When knowing it'll go on a killing rampage like all dragons do every 100 years.. or less in this dragons case. Hell yes. So protecting the future interets of your country and making a couple of gold on the side while at it is justified

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 28 janvier 2011 - 12:46 .

[Augustei]

Edit: Double post

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 28 janvier 2011 - 12:39 .

[Augustei]

Man if he is being kept alive by bloodmagic then that is bs, I would be so pissed, how the chantry and andrestes disciples condemn it but then go and use it anyway

[LobselVith8]

Considering how little we know about lyrium, I don't see why people dismiss it as a possibility as though they're experts on it. Oghren openly says that it's the thickest wall of lyrium that he's ever experienced, and that it's having an effect on everything in the temple. Why would he say this if it isn't a possibility to explain the Urn of Sacred Ashes and even the Guardian?

[Astara_]

Xilizhra wrote...

Altogether, I think I agree with your assessment. The mages could well be helpful to Redcliffe's image if they fix Connor's issue without bloodshed, but remember if you go this route and help Kolgrim with the Ashes, there's no way to keep Wynne in your party.

???

You can have the mages from the circle come and help you enter the fade w/o any conflicts.  You bring back the ashes and kill off the dragon-cult, then when needing to cure the kid, you say there must be another way and someone suggests pulling in the circle of magi to do the fade ritual w/o blood magic.

FWIW -- I too end up with the 'bugged' magi ending where I free the mages, but it is not acknowledge -- especially, where I noticed it, was in Awakening, where Wynn needs to deal with an 'uprising' w/in the circle against the templars -- which SHOULD BE A NON-ISSUE, since the mages circle was freed.

Pretty lame to have your 1 big 'boon' ignored by the game writers.

Another example of them just ignoring user choices and going off and doing their own thing.

It's bad enough that their idea of 'choices' is so radically broken -- like if you simply say the 'wrong word', you are screwed -- but in real life it's not that way -- since you can clarify AND you can also change your mind!

A lame example was is in awakening where you start out w/no gold and when the dwarf rock-smith wants 80 big-ones to rebuild, that's out-of-sight!  So it would make sense to tell him to do with what he has NOW, then later, if you get the money, then tell him to *upgrade* and go for the good stuff.

But I think the game has a built-in "screw the player" factor -- if you take the option to pay him up front, they you end up cash poor for the rest of the game, but if you don't, then you end up with a ridiculously large amount of money at the end of the game -- sorta to make your initial choice based on having not enough, "sting".  The one time I told him, *initially* to make do with what he had, I ended up with a HUGE amount of gold -- about 10X the amount in any other game.  Coincidence?  Maybe.  But that's a large coincidence!

[LobselVith8]

The Water God wrote...

Until we find a 145 year old templar that can read minds and teleport (As well as summon illusions that kill people) we have to dismiss Oghrens claims.

We have to? Why? Dwarves are experts on lyrium and they have an impact on mages and non-mages alike. I see no reason to dismiss Oghren, as a dwarf, pointing out that there's a large wall of lyrium having an impact on the entire temple. If it was to be dismissed, why did the devs include it in the storyline? That makes no sense. It's in there as an alternative explanation to "the Maker did it."

[LobselVith8]

Astara_ wrote...

FWIW -- I too end up with the 'bugged' magi ending where I free the mages, but it is not acknowledge -- especially, where I noticed it, was in Awakening, where Wynn needs to deal with an 'uprising' w/in the circle against the templars -- which SHOULD BE A NON-ISSUE, since the mages circle was freed.

It's apparently an issue because the Chantry said no.

David Gaider wrote...

It does come up, actually.

Keep in mind, however, that the kingdom doesn't control the Circle of Magi. That conversation no doubt went a little like this:

King/Queen: "We would like mages in Ferelden to be free."
Chantry: "No."

That said, the conversation doesn't necessarily stop there-- as you'll see. We can indeed pick up the boons the Origins player was granted and do intend to use them in the future.

Although why the royal boon being turned down by the Chantry is never actually addressed in Awakening or Witch Hunt is a mystery to me. I doubt most fans are looking through the forums to find out why the royal boon seems to be ignored in the expansion and following DLCs.

Astara_ wrote...

Pretty lame to have your 1 big 'boon' ignored by the game writers.

Another example of them just ignoring user choices and going off and doing their own thing.

The Ferelden map in Witch Hunt and the comments about the Alienage and Redcliffe pretty much elude to that. Makes little sense for the alienage to still be in disarray with Alistair on the throne, or why the other nobles would turn to Arl Tegan for guidance. I honestly don't understand why the turned down Magi boon couldn't have been included as a reason for the meeting in Cumberland for the Magi Hero of Ferelden who actually asked for it (in the same way that Fergus hands Amaranthine to the Grey Wardens only in the Human Noble ceremony).

[LobselVith8]

The Water God wrote...

The devs put it in there to give a very unlikely explanation for a divine event. There is no proof to Oghrens claims, its up for the player to decide: Unlikely coincidence or something more going on.

Oghren merely points out that there's a thick wall of lyrium and that it's having an effect on the entire temple. You can't dismiss his dwarven observation just because you want it to be a "divine event."