71 réponses à ce sujet

[jacob marez]

I go in to gibbeds save editor and put both my p/r to 1750 at the start of a new play through,so i just choose what ever i want and not have to feel like"damn plus 15 renegade"i can just be like".............................o hay 15 renegade.......cool" and get back to enjoying the game!

[HyenaLobo]

Agreed with other posters, you just don't have enough morality points to make those decisions.



I loved the system, in both morality roles you have options that stay within Para or Rene that stand for who you are. Some people felt screwed cause Paragon had less action than Renegade. While others hated renegade cause they saw shepard as mean, not just bad ass. So you can't please everyone.



People just want the best of both worlds and it doesn't work that way in real life. If I'm a Ruthless, Earthborn ex-gang member, who is willing to shoot a batarian cause he wants to start beef......you're not gonna see me letting thugs go free.

[JedTed]

I like the current system of persuation options being tied directly to P/R scores. It makes sense if you do a lot of Paragon actions then it would be easier to charm people while being very Renegade will make you much more intimidating.



The only thing i don't like is open Hub worlds increasing the percent needed for pursuation options but it's not a major problem for me as i usually go 90% Paragon or Renegade.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Never had a problem with it myself. By the end of the game...



Renegade: 100

Paragon: 85



I'm pretty sure I was almost always able to choose one or the other.

[Evil Johnny 666]

Joram Talid wrote...

personally, i like the system. you can only use the cool renegade/paragon choice if you are a total renegade/paragon.

it sounds like someone(OP) wants to have his cake and eat it too.

And why a non full renegade wouldn't be able to threathen someone with a gun? As far as I know, there are no link between the ability to threathen/intimidate/charm and how much paragon/renegade someone is. Anyway, why aren't you either in the first place? You're either paragon or renegade, you can't become one over the course of the game, particularly not a defined character as Shepard.

[Evil Johnny 666]

HyenaLobo wrote...

Agreed with other posters, you just don't have enough morality points to make those decisions.

Morality points! How ridiculous does that sounds! You HAVE a morale, period. I can understand charm points/skills, by practicing you get better, in real life you kind of "gain points". But you don't get better at a morale, you have one. It can change over the years (usually you keep relatively consistent your morales sometime in adulthood), but it's just something you have, something NOT gradable which bears NO consequences on any of your abilities.

[james1976]

ReconTeam wrote...

Dreggon wrote...
If you have a cake, why shouldn't you be allowed to eat it? You have it, after all.

Exactly, why would I have the cake if I was not going to eat it?

Because you become a glutton and expect too much.  Everything from there on in your mind has to be that way.

Modifié par james1976, 22 janvier 2011 - 06:08 .

[wizardryforever]

ReconTeam wrote...

Dreggon wrote...
If you have a cake, why shouldn't you be allowed to eat it? You have it, after all.

Exactly, why would I have the cake if I was not going to eat it?

The point of the quote is that they want to have their cake, as in, on display, while still eating it.  An impossibility to be sure.  To avoid confusion, they should reverse the order.  People want to eat their cake and have it too.

[Vit246]

This is ridiculous. People don't just stick to being paragon or renegade all the time. It doesn't work like that. There's no reason why we can't act according to what we think is appropriate for a certain situation. It's like the good cop/bad cop thing. If you don't think being the good cop is gonna work so well in this situation, switch to being the bad cop, and vice versa.



Being able to act paragon and renegade is called being flexible.

[uuuhcantthinkofaname]

During the Miranda and Jack fight the Paragon option was blanked out, yet the Renegade option was available. This didn't make much sense to me because I had more Paragon points over Renegade at that point.



Also I hated the options during Lair of the Shadow Broker where you find out that Vasir is a backstabber. It's basically Option 1: dduuur? Option 2: duuurr... It was pretty obvious she was a bad egg yet we had to act completely oblivious.

[Black-Xero]

I always wanted to make a sort of anti-hero character in RPGs but I was limited to it in ME2.The only Renegade choices I mostly made had something to be ruthless and threatening.In normal dialog the renegade choices always made my character sound...stupid like action and violence were the only things on his mind other than brains.

[Aigyl]

I didn't have a problem with passing most persuasion checks. With an imported Shepard that mainly picked paragon options with the occasional renegade, I could pass all the Charm checks and the majority of Intimidates except for the really high-level ones (Morinth, Crew fights, etc.), in which case the Charm option fit my Shepard much better anyway. If there was an Intimidate option I wanted I could usually pick it, the checks are pretty low until late in the game.

I don't completely agree with how Bioware's set up morality and persuasion in ME (personally preferred how Dragon Age handled it), but I can see why they would do it. The more Paragon your Shepard is, the strength of his diplomacy and compassion increases. The more Renegade your Shepard is, the strength of his aggression and ruthlessness increases. Hardly perfect, but it does make sense for Shepard to have a more powerful personality the further down a morality path he goes, thus is more persuasive.

[Lumikki]

Vit246 wrote...

This is ridiculous. People don't just stick to being paragon or renegade all the time. It doesn't work like that.

Depense of people, some can be only one sided. How ever, more neutral (gray area) you are, more both decission you made. How ever, there are people who sees situation more black and white too.

Problem with system in ME2 was that there was no neutral path "rewards". Because most people aren't with black and white morality. So, all people who don't have defined extreme morality have problems with the system, because they feel like they are lured to play extreme moralities, while they may not want to.

Modifié par Lumikki, 22 janvier 2011 - 11:13 .

[Manic Sheep]

On the whole "have your cake and eat it too" issue. I don't think a character who gets by threatening everyone the whole game should necessarily be able to just turn around and pull off a really difficult persuasion check out of the blue. I’m fine with you earning points for such things as you use them. The more you practice the better you get right? the problem is in the fact that para/ren points are given out for almost everything. In idle conversations not necessarily for being intimidating or charming merely voicing an veiw that is lumped together with the para or ren, Morality choices during missions even tho they have little to do with a characters ability to be charming or intimidating. I suppose you could argue "reputation" but allot of these choices most people don't even know about anyway. Its not even like you being calm and reasonable all the time means people are more likely to listen to you and being “SHEPARD SMASH!!” all the time makes you more intimidating because apparently not telling TIM to go screw himself at every available opportuinty and not slaming mordin on the genophage issue also makes my character less able to be persuasive? It pushes players to be completely para or ren rather than mixing different traits and viewpoints and if they don't want players to do that wahy not just have you pick paragon or renegade at the start?


I also would like to be able to attempt charm/ intimidate and have it fail, either because it just doesn’t work in this situation or my shep wasn't good enough at it but thats not really relevant to this topic.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 23 janvier 2011 - 05:55 .

[JedTed]

You know somethng just occured to me. If you start with a save imported from ME1 you get bonus P/R points as a nice little cushion, but what the PS3 players that can't import a save? Do they get bonus points for going through that interactive comic?

[Evil Johnny 666]

Lumikki wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

This is ridiculous. People don't just stick to being paragon or renegade all the time. It doesn't work like that.

Depense of people, some can be only one sided. How ever, more neutral (gray area) you are, more both decission you made. How ever, there are people who sees situation more black and white too.

Problem with system in ME2 was that there was no neutral path "rewards". Because most people aren't with black and white morality. So, all people who don't have defined extreme morality have problems with the system, because they feel like they are lured to play extreme moralities, while they may not want to.

I don't think it's about rewards, but being able to do things we want to do. We don't necessarily want to choose every paragon or renegade options, but maybe one or two of them, we want to choose options which fits our characters. ME2 limits us, ME2 doesn't let us do what WE would do. I don't care about rewards, just don't tell me I can't do a particular thing with no real good reason besides that my reputation disables me to do so. Eh, if the ****er think I would never draw a gun to his face, he won't be doubting my ability for long (ie. bullet in the head).

[Lumikki]

It limits your choise, because it doesn't allow you to go out of you moral role. What's the point of having moral, if you have no moral or you moral is like random compass without any direction.

Most of you people who complain the system, do not understanding the different between left and right side of dialogs. You still thread like left side dialogs (paragon and renegade) choises are like TRY options. They are not.

Meaning you can try to put gun to someone face (right side of dialogs), but that doesn't mean you success with you actions results. Left side dialogs (paragon and renegade) are not tries, they are 100% guaranteed result, they are consequences of you (past) moral reputation.

It's little like, you are what you do. There is different between what player in real life wants to do and what players gameplay has defined what they character REALLY can do. Meaning what you think you are isn't same what you really are, because you are what you do.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 janvier 2011 - 07:51 .

[Evil Johnny 666]

Lumikki wrote...

It limits your choise, because it doesn't allow you to go out of you moral role. What's the point of having moral, if you have no moral or you moral is like random compass without any direction.

Who are you to tell me I go outside my moral role? Eveyone has his own, different morality. If Bioware tries to get moral affect your choices, either do it right, or don't do it at all. Basically, Bioware are telling us there's only two moralities in existence which are both already defined in a way you don't even know. Was I supposed to guess telling TIM I felt good would be from the renegade morality? Was I supposed telling people I trusted them or not was tied to morality?

Most of you people who complain the system, you do not understanding the different between left and right side of dialogs. You still thread like left side dialogs (paragon and renegade) choises are like TRY options. They are not.

I already know that, but they should, that would make the system much more interesting.

Meaning you can try to put gun to someone face (right side of dialogs), but that doesn't mean you success with you actions results. Left side dialogs (paragon and renegade) are not tries, they are 100% guaranteed result, they are consequences of you (past) moral reputation.

I still don't know how anyone's Shepard would be able to put a gun to someone's face. Reputation? Morality? Whatever? I don't know about you, but a gun has no reputation, besides the one to kill. I'd never doubt someone pointing a gun on my face.

It's little like, you are what you do. There is different between what player in real life wants to do and what players gameplay has defined what they character REALLY can do. Meaning what you think you are isn't same what you really are, because you are what you do.

It is not you are what you do. I have a certain morality which can't dictate my character's actions. The game forces me a morality which I don't know of, which I don't know how it works. Not only does it force me such morality, but it ties it with a certain character personality. Sometimes it's impossible to guess what dialogue options will result in, I only know that the top option is paragon, yet I don't know what Shepard could be saying that I don't want him to say. It's more like you are what Shepard do. Or Shepard is like what Shepard do. How does doing something which ends up being tied to a certain morality which is not mine, disables me from doing something that is according to MY own morality makes any sense?

Not only Bioware failed at delivering a deep morality system that makes sense, but it's a bad idea in the first place. You just CAN'T put morality in a b/w system without making an utterly shallow one that can only limit your roleplaying abilities. ME2 only gives you two roles, well 3; full paragon, full renegade and grey. How isn't that limiting? Taking morality off, choosing options based on your own morality, and you have an infinite (or almost) amount of possible roles. Who are Bioware to force you a role? You're the one who attacks "traditional RPGs". They do usually limit you in your role, at least if we talk about class options - beyond that characters of the same class can be quite different - but ME2, a modern "RPG" limits you even more! Shouldn't modern RPGs try to give as much freedom as possible? Yet ME2 streamlines everything and only gives you 3 morality choices, when there's obviously so much more than that.

[wizardryforever]

Again, I would like to reiterate that nobody forces you to do anything.  The game is perfectly completable without ever using Charm or Intimidate.  Thus you can do just fine with a 50/50 character.  All white options are available 100% of the time.  The game does reward characters who play to an archetype with additional EXTREME options.  These options require a high percentage of Paragon/Renegade because the game uses the abstract concept of actions determining who your character is.  Thus, pick Paragon actions and Charm options open up.  This is because the Charm option is only something a serious Paragon would even think of, let alone try.  Ditto with Intimidate and Renegade.  It's not hard to understand, I don't know why so many people seem to have difficulty understanding this.

If you don't want to play a dedicated character, then fine, don't.  But don't complain that your wishy-washy character isn't compassionate enough to pull off a Charm check, nor badass enough to pull off an Intimidate check.  These are rewards for playing a dedicated character, a carrot in the carrot/stick analogy of rewards/punishments.  They are not a stick for those who choose not to play one, since there is no negative effect on the game for not taking these options.

The system isn't perfect, but I think it makes more sense than being able to pull off absolutely anything you put your mind to.  That's hardly realistic either.  The only beef I have with the system is that it is not adequately explained anywhere in the game or the manual.  Thus we have threads like this one crop up every month or so.

Modifié par wizardryforever, 23 janvier 2011 - 07:58 .

[Lumikki]

Yes, but the right side of dialogs is what defines those three roles.

Right side of dialog choises is what limits you choises to try and say, not the left side of dialogs. Moral system how ever, is in left side, what has two roles. Only thing what right side of dialogs has to do with moral system, is counting "moral" choises what you do.

Yes, moral system is very limited, but they are not limiting you gameplay in anyway. They are not forcing you to do anything. They are addional consequences what can happen based your past choises.

You are barking wrong tree here.

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 janvier 2011 - 08:08 .

[Soahfreako]

Just never go full retard and there won't be a problem. I mean if you're trying the Simple Jack run-through you're obviously not going to have a good time. :/

[RAF1940]

I think the system is fine, but it could be better for "neutral" characters. Not being fully Paragon/Renegade in ME2 can have consequences.

[RAF1940]

wizardryforever wrote...

Again, I would like to reiterate that nobody forces you to do anything.  The game is perfectly completable without ever using Charm or Intimidate.  Thus you can do just fine with a 50/50 character.  All white options are available 100% of the time.  The game does reward characters who play to an archetype with additional EXTREME options.  These options require a high percentage of Paragon/Renegade because the game uses the abstract concept of actions determining who your character is.  Thus, pick Paragon actions and Charm options open up.  This is because the Charm option is only something a serious Paragon would even think of, let alone try.  Ditto with Intimidate and Renegade.  It's not hard to understand, I don't know why so many people seem to have difficulty understanding this.

If you don't want to play a dedicated character, then fine, don't.  But don't complain that your wishy-washy character isn't compassionate enough to pull off a Charm check, nor badass enough to pull off an Intimidate check.  These are rewards for playing a dedicated character, a carrot in the carrot/stick analogy of rewards/punishments.  They are not a stick for those who choose not to play one, since there is no negative effect on the game for not taking these options.

The system isn't perfect, but I think it makes more sense than being able to pull off absolutely anything you put your mind to.  That's hardly realistic either.  The only beef I have with the system is that it is not adequately explained anywhere in the game or the manual.  Thus we have threads like this one crop up every month or so.

I agree. You shouldn't complain when a 50/50 character can't solve a situation in the ways an extreme Paragon orn Renegade could.

[Evil Johnny 666]

Lumikki wrote...

Yes, but the right side of dialogs is what defines those three roles.

Right side of dialog choises is what limits you choises to try and say, not the left side of dialogs. Moral system how ever, is in left side, what has two roles. Only thing what right side of dialogs has to do with moral system, is counting "moral" choises what you do.

Yes, moral system is very limited, but they are not limiting you gameplay in anyway. They are not forcing you to anything. They are addional consequences what can happen based your past choises.

You are barking wrong tree here.

That's why if I choose a left side option I get paragon or renagade points. If I always get the renegade options on the right side but never do so in the left side, I won't be able to choose a certain left side renegade option like you say I should, since it's not what defines my character.

How doesn't it define my role? Doing ANYTHING defines my role. If I want to be able to point out a gun in someone's face, I should, unless my character doesn't have the guts or is not blunt enough. The only reason I shouldn't be able to convince someone is because of my rhethoric skills.

Yes the system has no effect on gameplay, but since the gameplay is shallow too, I'd like to at least have one of the main two systems be deep. The only things there are to ME2 is the combat system and the dialogue one. I think it's only normal to expect something deep considering what we get. Bioware not only cut off a lot of things from ME1, but instead of making these systems deeper, they actually made them shallower. How can I have a blast with a game that offers only two gameplay modes while both are a lot less than they should be? Two sub-par experences put together doesn't make one great experience, it makes one sub-par experience.

[RAF1940]

Double- post

Modifié par RAF1940, 23 janvier 2011 - 08:13 .