71 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

RAF1940 wrote...

I agree. You shouldn't complain when a 50/50 character can't solve a situation in the ways an extreme Paragon orn Renegade could.

I agree.

But here is something what developers could think.

1. Why can't neutral solve any situation what extreme paragon or renegade can?
2. Why can extreme and paragon allways solve situation, aren't there any disadvance to be so extreme at all?
3.  Is three choises in right side even enough for players roles as choises?

Modifié par Lumikki, 23 janvier 2011 - 08:17 .

[RAF1940]

Lumikki wrote...

1. Why can't neutral solve any situation what extreme paragon or renegade can?

This is a good idea, but what would this neutral chracter do? Convince them to peacefully put away the pistol he/she is pointing at you, and then shoot him/her?

[Lumikki]

RAF1940 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

1. Why can't neutral solve any situation what extreme paragon or renegade can?

This is a good idea, but what would this neutral chracter do? Convince them to peacefully put away the pistol he/she is pointing at you, and then shoot him/her?

I was thinking more like reason or logical options, when it's not moral based.

[Evil Johnny 666]

RAF1940 wrote...
I agree. You shouldn't complain when a 50/50 character can't solve a situation in the ways an extreme Paragon orn Renegade could.

Well, first there should be a reason why extreme paragon or renegades can solve certain situations. As far as I know, there's no reason except for an arbitrary system that is unrealistic and makes no sense. It was just Bioware trying to streamline further their game, without actually coming up with something to make it okay. They took out charm and intimidation, but came with nothing to replace them, instead only tied these with being full renegade or paragon without actually explaining it or coming with something. And then you get people on the forums trying to defend them and come with something which the developpers haven't even done. Otherwise we wouldn't be arguing.

[wizardryforever]

Lumikki wrote...

RAF1940 wrote...

I agree. You shouldn't complain when a 50/50 character can't solve a situation in the ways an extreme Paragon orn Renegade could.

I agree.

But here is something what developers could think.

1. Why can't neutral solve any situation what extreme paragon or renegade can?
2. Why can extreme and paragon allways solve situation, aren't there any disadvance to be so extreme at all?
3.  Is three choises in right side even enough for players roles as choises?

Well again, every situation in the game is solvable by any kind of character.  So a neutral can still solve it, just not as well or as bloodlessly as a more devoted character.  And really the main disadvantage to playing an extreme character is that you can't really pick options from the other extreme, ever.  There are some situations in which only Charm, or only Intimidate, are available, and not the other.  In these situations, an opposite extreme is no better off than a neutral.  But other than that, I don't really think there should be.  Just my opinion.

As for only having three options on the right side, I'm unsure if they would be able to fit more options on there, especially for most convos in which even three responses seems like a lot.  Meh.

[Omega-202]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Well, first there should be a reason why extreme paragon or renegades can solve certain situations. As far as I know, there's no reason except for an arbitrary system that is unrealistic and makes no sense. 

It makes perfect sense.  The extreme versions of Shepard have more practice in dealing with situations in that manner and therefore are more skilled.

Wasn't that your argument before?  Just instead of being arbitrary points being allocated with no reasoning, its based on your actions and choices in the narrative.  

So that makes you a hypocrite who simply prefers one arbitrary system over another arbitrary system.  You just don't like something DIFFERENT.  

[Evil Johnny 666]

Omega-202 wrote...

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Well, first there should be a reason why extreme paragon or renegades can solve certain situations. As far as I know, there's no reason except for an arbitrary system that is unrealistic and makes no sense. 

It makes perfect sense.  The extreme versions of Shepard have more practice in dealing with situations in that manner and therefore are more skilled.

Wasn't that your argument before?  Just instead of being arbitrary points being allocated with no reasoning, its based on your actions and choices in the narrative.  

So that makes you a hypocrite who simply prefers one arbitrary system over another arbitrary system.  You just don't like something DIFFERENT. 

Yeah, it makes sense if only one morality exists and your Shepard's skills are tied with them. Except that's not the case and Bioware are shoving you a morality system with no depth whatsoever (it's not a good idea in the first place anyway). Basically, you're telling me if I do things according to MY morality, MY Shepard doesn't practice in his morality... but that's what I do! What if shoving a gun in someone's face is perfectly according to MY morality, why can't I do it. And will someone explain me why I can punch a reporter in the face, or torture someone regardless of my alignment?

Eh, at least my argument was about choices which asks for SKILLS. You don't need skills to shove a gun to someone's face. With all the shooting your character does, I sure hope he can do that. And there's no link between morality and skills. There's plenty of occasions in ME2 when the left options asks for no skill at all, but for you to have a certain morality which doesn't make any sense. Why can't my character choose to kill Samara? Who the hell decides in my place what my character's morality is. It's not because my Shepard isn't consistent to an arbitrary morality which isn't even explained (how can I guess telling TIM I feel well is renegade other than it's the lowest option? How was that renegade in any way?) that it's not consistent to MY morality. 

Killing Samara is related to skills in no way, so I don't know why you're getting in my skill argument thing in when it's not related at all... And there IS reasoning behind allocating points, it's about how you want your character to be, like how you want yourself to be, so that's why you do what you do and you are who you are. Everyone has their talents, and it's by practicing them and not doing other things. It's not because you don't like such system that it doesn't work or it's arbitrary. You can make evolve RPGs all you want, but key words are deep and great.

[Manic Sheep]

Omega-202 wrote...

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Well, first there should be a reason why extreme paragon or renegades can solve certain situations. As far as I know, there's no reason except for an arbitrary system that is unrealistic and makes no sense. 

It makes perfect sense.  The extreme versions of Shepard have more practice in dealing with situations in that manner and therefore are more skilled.

Wasn't that your argument before?  Just instead of being arbitrary points being allocated with no reasoning, its based on your actions and choices in the narrative.  

So that makes you a hypocrite who simply prefers one arbitrary system over another arbitrary system.  You just don't like something DIFFERENT.  

Which would make sense if it was actually tied into speech skills and only speech skills but it’s not. You could intimidate your way thru everything but still end having all you speach options greyed out because you didn’t also pick the renegade option in choices, you didn’t act like you loved Cerberus, were not as dickish to your crew and share some common viewpoints with Paragon. You will still end failing speech checks all the time despite the fact that you have had just as much “practice” as a dedicated renegade.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 24 janvier 2011 - 04:26 .

[Gemini1179]

Why was sniping the Loki Mech coming to kill you a Renegade move? Headbutting the Krogan? It's these things that I didn't like being punished for as a Paragon player.

[Bluko]

wizardryforever wrote...

Oh look, it's this topic again. Sigh.

The game rewards dedicated characters with special dialogue that only a particularly kind soul or ruthless badass would be able to use with any effectiveness. As such, if your character is wishy-washy, indecisive, schizophrenic or some combination of these, you don't get to take these options. It makes sense, as the game judges your morality as being a composite of your choices up to that point in the game. And really for most of these options, I don't see a neutral character pulling them off very well. The Charm options are hyper-Paragon, and the Intimidate options are hyper-Renegade. It only makes sense for dedicated Paragons and Renegades to get access to them.

Thank you. It's nice to seem someone making sense instead of "I should have all the options available all the time so I can be mean and nice at the same time!" I just don't get it. Besides most of the game's Paragon/Renegade stuff is relegated to Interrupts which anyone can do. The Charm and Intimidate options are soley there for the true Paragons and Renegades.

ME1 wasn't really any different to be honest since you couldn't unlock more of Charm/Intimidate til you earned sufficient Paragon/Renegade points either. And you generally needed 4 or more talent points for even the mostly lowly options. Most of the important ones require like 10+ talent points. Why anyone would try to waste 24 talent points in both is beyond me, cause in terms of combat ability you're going to leave your Shepard a bit gimped for it. True ME2 is more based around percentage, but for all intents and purposes it works the same while not penalizing those who are actually trying to play Paragon or Renegade.

Modifié par Bluko, 24 janvier 2011 - 07:36 .

[adam_grif]

Thank you. It's nice to seem someone making sense instead of "I should have all the options available all the time so I can be mean and nice at the same time!" I just don't get it.

If that's what you think most of the complaints are, then it's no wonder you don't get it. We want to be able to build our characters a certain way, and make certain decisions. We don't want to get BWare to make us suffer because we didn't want to fall into one of two polarized camps, the Paragons and Renegades. We want persuasion to be tied to a skill so we can choose to invest in it or not, as it stands "investing in persuasion" means forcing you to be full paragon or full renegade. That's a fundamentally bad design decision. So is a system whereby people are picking dialogue options that they don't really want to pick just because it's "their alignment" and they're paranoid about whether they'll have enough paragon or renegade for their persuades.



It's detrimental to roleplay in its current form. People don't want to be mean and nice at the same time, they want to be able to be mean sometimes and nice sometimes, depending on circumstances - I want to be mean to people who have wronged me but nice to my crew and strangers. Does that make me inconsistent? Nope, it makes me like a real person.



As it stands, my refusal to be 100% renegade or 100% paragon has meant that even in my extensive playthroughs, two persuades have never been open to me. The first is the one that allows you to recruit a certain character on Samara's loyalty mission, and the second is the one on Thane's loyalty mission where you're interrogating the guy.



You'd think that being neutral and somewhat impartial would make you more able to persuade people, wouldn't you? Since you can understand people's views and mediate?

[Manic Sheep]

Gemini1179 wrote...

Why was sniping the Loki Mech coming to kill you a Renegade move? Headbutting the Krogan? It's these things that I didn't like being punished for as a Paragon player.

Hmm? You are not punished for taking an interrupt because you’re not picking between a renegade and paragon option. If you don't pick them you miss out on renegade points you might otherwise have had but picking them doesn’t negatively affect your paragon points.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 24 janvier 2011 - 07:59 .

[adam_grif]

Hmm? You are not punished for taking an interrupt because you’re not picking between a renegade and paragon option. If you don't pick them you miss out on renegade points you might otherwise have had but picking them doesn’t negatively affect your paragon points.

The way persuasion checks are calculated is based on percentage, and factors in how many paragon/renegade points you had vs how many paragon/renegade points you could have had by this stage.



So if you choose a renegade option when the paragon option would have yielded you paragon points, you get "penalized" in the sense that it's harder to pass the persuade.

[Super ._. Shepard]

never got why sniping the mech got you renegade points

[didymos1120]

Manic Sheep wrote...
Hmm? You are not punished for taking an interrupt because you’re not picking between a renegade and paragon option. If you don't pick them you miss out on renegade points you might otherwise have had but picking them doesn’t negatively affect your paragon points.

More precisely, if there isn't an alternate paragon version of the interrupt involved too, then taking a renegade one won't hurt you when it comes to using charm options.  Of course, it's really easy to know when that's the case since the paragon prompt always comes first. If it goes straight to a renegade prompt, then you're safe. Unfortunately, that means you may be hurting yourself renegade-wise if you take a paragon interrupt.  The only way to know for sure is let the scene continue and see if you also get a renegade prompt. If not, then you'll have to quit and reload if you really want those paragon points for some reason.

ETA: Also, this is only for those interrupts that don't short circuit a conversation which might earn you more of either type of alignment points.  I don't know if anyone's actually compiled the numbers for those.

Modifié par didymos1120, 24 janvier 2011 - 08:15 .

[wildannie]

@adam_grif - I agree with your view on this, well put.

[adam_grif]

More precisely, if there isn't an alternate paragon version of the interrupt involved too, then taking a renegade one won't hurt you when it comes to using charm options.

Don't interrupts sometimes skip dialogue options if you take them? Like, if you take a renegade interrupt and knock the guy out the window, you can't take the paragon dialogue or whatever after it. I'm not sure if that's the case since I *always* kick him out the window, but...

[didymos1120]

adam_grif wrote...

More precisely, if there isn't an alternate paragon version of the interrupt involved too, then taking a renegade one won't hurt you when it comes to using charm options.

Don't interrupts sometimes skip dialogue options if you take them? Like, if you take a renegade interrupt and knock the guy out the window, you can't take the paragon dialogue or whatever after it. I'm not sure if that's the case since I *always* kick him out the window, but...

Yeah, I just remembered to edit that caveat in. 

[didymos1120]

Super ._. Shepard wrote...

never got why sniping the mech got you renegade points

Because it's a bolder, more aggressive move and the game lacks a generalized QTE or "neutral interrupt" system, so making it a renegade interrupt was the next best thing (unless you think that scene shouldn't have been interactive at all).  And people expect to get renegade points for renegade interrupts, so you get some.  It's not exactly consistent, but there's no way it could be and still be interactive, and it at least makes more sense than pistol-whipping Dr. Archer being a paragon interrupt.

[adam_grif]

Because it's a bolder, more aggressive move

Something something darkside points.

[Manic Sheep]

 

didymos1120 wrote...

More precisely, if there isn't an alternate paragon version of the interrupt involved too, then taking a renegade one won't hurt you when it comes to using charm options.  Of course, it's really easy to know when that's the case since the paragon prompt always comes first. If it goes straight to a renegade prompt, then you're safe. Unfortunately, that means you may be hurting yourself renegade-wise if you take a paragon interrupt.  The only way to know for sure is let the scene continue and see if you also get a renegade prompt. If not, then you'll have to quit and reload if you really want those paragon points for some reason.



ETA: Also, this is only for those interrupts that don't short circuit a conversation which might earn you more of either type of alignment points.  I don't know if anyone's actually compiled the numbers for those.

Yes, exactly.

I forget that not everyone replays a scene 50 times to see what all the options are. Still the 2 example he/she gave do not penalise you as far as I can recall because it dosn't cut you out of anything that would have givin para points. You can potentialy cost yourself renegade points with a renegade interrupt too by missing out on further conversation. Don’t know if anyone has bothered to calculate.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 24 janvier 2011 - 08:29 .

[yummysoap]

Paragon and Renegade was mostly just a cheat button anyway. It took a lot of the hard choices you'd have otherwise had to make away from the game.



In particular is Tali's mission. You can either get her exiled, defame her father, or just yell at the judges until they agree with you with no consequences. Nobody's going to choose the first two if they have the option to choose the latter.