40 réponses à ce sujet

[Ramirez Wolfen]

First, this isn't a bashing thread. This just discusses the characters actual RELEVANCE (not whether you like them or not) to the story. Second, here's what I mean: For example, Thane is completely irreleveant to the story despite being a well written character. His skills serve you no purpose. The same with Jacob. What do you think?

[Ramirez Wolfen]

I'm not trolling, but I have a bad feeling I'm going to get attacked for this.  This is from an earlier thread but not the exact topic.

For characters that I find relevant, here's what I think (storywise):

Mordin (Relevant) - He's needed to make a defense against the Collector swarms, also might help with genophage

Garrus (Relevant) - I think he's mostly there so Shepard can have someone he's familiar with and trusts

Grunt
(Relevant) - He's needed for the tough fights where there's really tough enemies. Also connections with Urdnot to help against the Reapers

Jacob (Irrelevant) - He was just head of security on the Lazarus Project. Why did he need to join you?

Miranda (Relevant) - She helped bring Shepard back to life and is a connection with Cerberus resources

Kasumi (Irrelevant) - Her skills serve you no purpose at all

Zaeed (Irrelevant) - Skills serve you no purpose except for combat ability

Jack (Irrelevant) - Why have Jack when you can have Samara, who's a much better biotic and isn't likely to kill your crew?

Thane (Irrelevant) - His skills serve you no purpose

Tali (Relevant) - She can help you get the Quarians to help you in the fight against the Reapers

Legion (Relevant) - It can get the Geth to fight with you against the Reapers

Samara (Relevant) - Best biotic for you to use on the Suicide Mission

Morinth (Irrelevant) - Why would you take her with you?

That's just what I think, if anyone's offended, I'm sorry, that's not what was intended.

Modifié par Ramirez Wolfen, 22 janvier 2011 - 07:58 .

[kimprobable]

I would have traded having so many squad memebers in ME2 - just make them more customizable - for having more actual storyline. Had there been more storyline, would we really complain that the squad wasn't "relevant"? There's no offense in a squad being full of random people picked up along the way who just want to help, but we miss out on content that is "relevant" to the storyline - so the real evil is that there just wasn't enough story.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

None of them are particularly relevant individually. But they are all relevant when you have them all.



And don't worry, I know you aint trolling

[PiEman]

My hair is a bird.



Your thread is invalid.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

PiEman wrote...

My hair is a bird.

Your thread is invalid.

Did you get your inspiration from a certain Orlesian noblewoman that Leliana talks about?
However, on topic .
Mordin developes the counter-measure against the seeker swarms, and Miranda controls the Cerberus project. And that is about it for characters with plot relevance.
But they are all useful in their own different ways. Almost...

[Disquoveri]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

PiEman wrote...

My hair is a bird.

Your thread is invalid.

Did you get your inspiration from a certain Orlesian noblewoman that Leliana talks about?

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

Hmm...

That was not how I envisioned an Orlesian noblewoman to look like...

But I love it!

[Aggie Punbot]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

For characters that I find relevant, here's what I think (storywise):

Allow me to deconstruct your argument about certain squadmates being irrelevant:

Jacob is required because (in theory) TIM wants to fill his Cerberus ship with people that Commander Shepard can relate to and are not obvious Cerberus sympathizers. Why? Because TIM knows about the encounters that Shep has had with Cerberus in the past and wants to make him/her more comfortable with the idea of "working for Cerberus". Jacob is mistrustful of them, so he would have something in common with Shep.

Naturally Kasumi and Zaeed are going to not be as relevant as the other squadmates: they are DLC characters and thus are completely optional. You can't have someone that is 'needed' for the mission be someone that is optional.

You argue that Jack is irrelevant because you can get Samara. Commander Shepard knows nothing about Samara in the first part of recruitment; metagame-wise, you do not have access to Samara until after Horizon. What if you need/want a powerful biotic for (or before) Horizon? She is needed, maybe not as much in the later game due to player preference but definitely in the early game.

Thane has perfectly valid skills. I always use him (along with Samara) on the derelict reaper mission to utilize his Throw Field skill to protect me from husks while I'm too busy taking care of the scions. Plus, snipers are always useful.

As for Morinth, she is a potential alternative to Samara. The same arguments you make about Samara being needed goes double for Morinth because if you have Morinth you do not have Samara.

Your arguments for squadmates being "irrelevant" is completely subjective.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 22 janvier 2011 - 10:42 .

[PrinceLionheart]

Honestly save for Mordin and maybe Miranda, none of them are relevant at all since their roles can easily be interchangeable with a different character.

Since the characters were the story, it would have been nice to see more banter between the squad, on the ship and during loyalty missions.

In the game itself, when it came to the main mission the only people Shepard ever talked to were Miranda and Jacob.

[xlavaina]

I believe that the squad irrelevance in ME2 will be clarified in ME3 where they actually are relevant.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

For characters that I find relevant, here's what I think (storywise):

Allow me to deconstruct your argument about certain squadmates being irrelevant:

Jacob is required because (in theory) TIM wants to fill his Cerberus ship with people that Commander Shepard can relate to and are not obvious Cerberus sympathizers. Why? Because TIM knows about the encounters that Shep has had with Cerberus in the past and wants to make him/her more comfortable with the idea of "working for Cerberus". Jacob is mistrustful of them, so he would have something in common with Shep.

Naturally Kasumi and Zaeed are going to not be as relevant as the other squadmates: they are DLC characters and thus are completely optional. You can't have someone that is 'needed' for the mission be someone that is optional.

You argue that Jack is irrelevant because you can get Samara. Commander Shepard knows nothing about Samara in the first part of recruitment; metagame-wise, you do not have access to Samara until after Horizon. What if you need/want a powerful biotic for (or before) Horizon? She is needed, maybe not as much in the later game due to player preference but definitely in the early game.

Thane has perfectly valid skills. I always use him (along with Samara) on the derelict reaper mission to utilize his Throw Field skill to protect me from husks while I'm too busy taking care of the scions. Plus, snipers are always useful.

As for Morinth, she is a potential alternative to Samara. The same arguments you make about Samara being needed goes double for Morinth because if you have Morinth you do not have Samara.

Your arguments for squadmates being "irrelevant" is completely subjective.

For Thane I was talking story wise, not gameplay wise (Thane is useful for that only). Also, You already have Garrus, who's an excellent sniper. I was just mentioning Kasumi and Zaeed just to put it out there. Also, it's entirely optional to run into Cerberus in ME1. Morinth, she tries to seduce Shepard, which will result in his or her death. So why take a potential threat to your life with you? You didn't really need Jack for or before Horizon. That's for gameplay.

In the end, you didn't "deconstruct" anything.

[Sergeant Conley]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

For characters that I find relevant, here's what I think (storywise):

Allow me to deconstruct your argument about certain squadmates being irrelevant:

Jacob is required because (in theory) TIM wants to fill his Cerberus ship with people that Commander Shepard can relate to and are not obvious Cerberus sympathizers. Why? Because TIM knows about the encounters that Shep has had with Cerberus in the past and wants to make him/her more comfortable with the idea of "working for Cerberus". Jacob is mistrustful of them, so he would have something in common with Shep.

Naturally Kasumi and Zaeed are going to not be as relevant as the other squadmates: they are DLC characters and thus are completely optional. You can't have someone that is 'needed' for the mission be someone that is optional.

You argue that Jack is irrelevant because you can get Samara. Commander Shepard knows nothing about Samara in the first part of recruitment; metagame-wise, you do not have access to Samara until after Horizon. What if you need/want a powerful biotic for (or before) Horizon? She is needed, maybe not as much in the later game due to player preference but definitely in the early game.

Thane has perfectly valid skills. I always use him (along with Samara) on the derelict reaper mission to utilize his Throw Field skill to protect me from husks while I'm too busy taking care of the scions. Plus, snipers are always useful.

As for Morinth, she is a potential alternative to Samara. The same arguments you make about Samara being needed goes double for Morinth because if you have Morinth you do not have Samara.

Your arguments for squadmates being "irrelevant" is completely subjective.

For Thane I was talking story wise, not gameplay wise (Thane is useful for that only). Also, You already have Garrus, who's an excellent sniper. I was just mentioning Kasumi and Zaeed just to put it out there. Also, it's entirely optional to run into Cerberus in ME1. Morinth, she tries to seduce Shepard, which will result in his or her death. So why take a potential threat to your life with you? You didn't really need Jack for or before Horizon. That's for gameplay.

In the end, you didn't "deconstruct" anything.

All characters can be explained as being somewhat plot relevant, though you'd probably consider it the bare minimum of relevance.

The Illusive Man wants Shepard's team to have the absolute best of the best of all fields, and barring that, as many fields as possible.

Biotics can be useful in combat (subjective, I know, but bear with me). Even if Shepard/the player doesn't use them very often, or uses teammates who use them, the Illusive Man would want Shepard to have the best biotic possible available to him/her, in case a situation ever arose in which biotic powers were needed.

Apparently, Jack is the best biotic in the galaxy, so the Illusive Man sends Shepard to recruit her.

After Horizon, the Illusive Man adds three dossiers: Tali for her beyond-exceptional engineering and hacking skills and the utmost trust Shepard would have in her, Thane for his unmatched stealth skills honed through years of a career in assassinations, and Samara for her exceptional biotics to be a sort of weaker-but-viable back-up to Jack, only with better combat skills.

Kasumi can be justified for having unmatched security bypassing skills, which can be utilized in the first section of the suicide mission.

Zaeed's just an experienced killer who knows an assload of ways to kill.

Even if Shepard doesn't run into Cerberus in ME1, Jacob can still be a relatable friend through their similar statuses as disillusioned and discarded soldiers.

Morinth...is a risk. She claims to be a more powerful biotic than Samara, and she can apparently brainwash people (in-game this is her Dominate ability).

Really, when it comes to "plot relevance," it's just a matter of Shepard being stacked with a team with the best skills possible in multiple fields. As it turns out in the Collector base, some of those skills (such as Thane's stealth) just end up not being needed. But they're extra guns in the field, so it's all good.

Modifié par Sergeant Conley, 23 janvier 2011 - 05:29 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Jack is the strongest HUMAN biotic in the galaxy, but she's also a bit unstable.

[Sergeant Conley]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

Jack is the strongest HUMAN biotic in the galaxy, but she's also a bit unstable.

True, but maybe the most powerful human biotic also happens to be the most powerful biotic Cerberus knows of. The instability risk can be explained as the Illusive Man trusting Shepard's leadership skills (a core reason he/she was revived in the first place) to keep her in line.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Asari are the most powerful biotics. Jack is definitely the strongest human biotic, but her potential wouldn't match up with an asari.

[Sergeant Conley]

Then maybe Jack was the back-up? The Illusive Man wasn't able to secure Samara's location at the beginning of the game, so he goes for the next best thing: Jack. The he does get Samara's location and sends it to Shepard.



From there it's just the individual Shepard's reasoning for keeping her, be it loyalty to all crew members and teammates or just to keep a very powerful back-up.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

As for what you said with Jacob, you have Garrus as the "disillusioned and discarded" soldier.

[lizzbee]

mangeo wrote...

Yea i created that earlier Thane thread & its much better than that stupid one i created anyway!
So dont attack him alright?
how about conversation relevant to the subject?

Re: Thane, specifically.  For all we know, he'll be our "in" with the hanar in ME3 so we can get a hold of their super-seekret-dev anti-Reaper disintegrator that the Normandy, and Earth itself, will fall apart without   We don't know yet what's in store in game 3, so for all we can guess, many of our ME2 companions will have some pivotal role in helping us get their respective people's support for Shepard's Gigantor Army of Reaper-Doom.  You probably can't say that for Jack or Garrus, per se, but Samara (or a disguised Morinth) might end up assembling the Justicar Justice League; Tali, the Fabulous Flotilla of Death, and whatnot. Grunt might be relevant later, especially if Wrex didn't survive Virmire.  Jacob might be able to put in a good word with the Council after saving them.  Legion's value is pretty obvious.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

lizzbee wrote...

mangeo wrote...

Yea i created that earlier Thane thread & its much better than that stupid one i created anyway!
So dont attack him alright?
how about conversation relevant to the subject?

Re: Thane, specifically.  For all we know, he'll be our "in" with the hanar in ME3 so we can get a hold of their super-seekret-dev anti-Reaper disintegrator that the Normandy, and Earth itself, will fall apart without   We don't know yet what's in store in game 3, so for all we can guess, many of our ME2 companions will have some pivotal role in helping us get their respective people's support for Shepard's Gigantor Army of Reaper-Doom.  You probably can't say that for Jack or Garrus, per se, but Samara (or a disguised Morinth) might end up assembling the Justicar Justice League; Tali, the Fabulous Flotilla of Death, and whatnot. Grunt might be relevant later, especially if Wrex didn't survive Virmire.  Jacob might be able to put in a good word with the Council after saving them.  Legion's value is pretty obvious.

Thane doesn't really have any connections with the hanar anymore now that he's no longer an assassin. And since when did Jacob matter to the Council?

[Sergeant Conley]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

As for what you said with Jacob, you have Garrus as the "disillusioned and discarded" soldier.

Not necessarily. The Illusive Man says Cerberus has lost its surveillance on Garrus, if I remember correctly, when you first meet him (supposing you ask, of course).

Archangel, so far as Cerberus knows, is just a helluva good fighter who has impressive sniping capabilities and knows how to survive against overwhelming odds (him and his small squad against the three most powerful merc companies in the Terminus Systems).

Unless the Illusive Man knew Archangel really was Garrus (which is entirely possible), then Archangel's true identity was just a stroke of great luck for Shepard.

For the record, though, I don't think the Illusive Man knew. You ask about Garrus and he says "We have no clue where he is or what's happened to him." Then he sends you to pick up Archangel, who's really Garrus. The only reason I can see him doing that is to give Shepard a pleasant surprise on Omega, and that seems way beyond unlikely.

[Ramirez Wolfen]

Sergeant Conley wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...

As for what you said with Jacob, you have Garrus as the "disillusioned and discarded" soldier.

Not necessarily. The Illusive Man says Cerberus has lost its surveillance on Garrus, if I remember correctly, when you first meet him (supposing you ask, of course).

Archangel, so far as Cerberus knows, is just a helluva good fighter who has impressive sniping capabilities and knows how to survive against overwhelming odds (him and his small squad against the three most powerful merc companies in the Terminus Systems).

Unless the Illusive Man knew Archangel really was Garrus (which is entirely possible), then Archangel's true identity was just a stroke of great luck for Shepard.

For the record, though, I don't think the Illusive Man knew. You ask about Garrus and he says "We have no clue where he is or what's happened to him." Then he sends you to pick up Archangel, who's really Garrus. The only reason I can see him doing that is to give Shepard a pleasant surprise on Omega, and that seems way beyond unlikely.

You get Jacob first (because he survived the mech attack on the Cerberus facility), but he isn't really relevant. Sure, he voices his opinions on important matters, but anything he says isn't the main decision (I don't know if I worded that right)

[lizzbee]

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Thane doesn't really have any connections with the hanar anymore now that he's no longer an assassin. And since when did Jacob matter to the Council?

I was stretching a bit with Jacob, but it's possible that he has some connections we don't know about, especially after his alleged "arse-saving."  I generally find him to be irrelevant, but you never know.  I never played Galaxies, just read the ME Wiki entry on it, so...  I doubt Thane's old "contacts" are dead, so even if he doesn't directly serve them anymore, he might be able to pull a favor or two.  We also don't know who his old contacts were, so for all we know, he could have been serving some higher ranked hanar.

Modifié par lizzbee, 23 janvier 2011 - 06:11 .

[Ramirez Wolfen]

lizzbee wrote...

Ramirez Wolfen wrote...
Thane doesn't really have any connections with the hanar anymore now that he's no longer an assassin. And since when did Jacob matter to the Council?

I was stretching a bit with Jacob, but it's possible that he has some connections we don't know about, especially after his alleged "arse-saving."  I generally find him to be irrelevant, but you never know.  I never played Galaxies, just read the ME Wiki entry on it, so...  I doubt Thane's old "contacts" are dead, so even if he doesn't directly serve them anymore, he might be able to pull a favor or two.  We also don't know who his old contacts were, so for all we know, he could have been serving some higher ranked hanar.

While that could be true, that's a varies on what Bioware will do. We would have to wait until ME3 to prove Thane is relevant. But for ME2, I don't think he is relevant.