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[Omnicrat]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

1)  I thought black ops were like shadow ops.  They could be illigal by the laws of a country (like the US trying to assasinate people) but they could just be covert operations.  And wasn't that what the corseairs (sp) were for?  Why would the alliance have both?

2)  ... but my point was the funding didn't come from some type of front corporation.  Which is where EDI tells you the majority of Cerberus funding comes form.

3)  This explanation makes sence.

4)  My point was, why would Cerberus be publicly known as something, while Kahoku thinks it is something else (it acctually being that something else [which absolutly no one is supposed to know and Kahoku would have no way to know]) for no apparent reason?

1) Why wouldn't the Alliance have both?

2) EDI does say that "legitimate busiesses" generate income too. Plus all this materiel and personnel resources have to be listed as somebody's property and employees.

3) OK

4) Kahoku did some digging and came to the concusion he managed to share with you.

1)  pointless division of resources to achieve the same goal.

2)  So... I don't get it.  Nations have had black ops for a very long time, and those black ops are funded by the nations, not third parties.  Why would Cerberus be different?

4)  But how could he come to that conclusion, with Cerberus existing in the public eye as a terrorist organization?

[Omnicrat]

Burdokva wrote...

Well, Zulu_DFA is actually acting like a sensible person that sees Cerberus as a needed political and military tool, rather than just bash in blind rage against. Respect, sir.

1)  As for the story being retconned, it wasn't. To put it in simple terms - how many of you Americans knew about al-Qaeda before 2001? I would guess the vast majority didn't, although US political and military structure officials certainly knew that such a group existed.

2)  Same for Cerberus. In Mass Effect it's not a widely-known organization and Alliance senior personnel are clearly aware of it's existence, if only vaguely; that doesn't mean it wasn't well funded or influential. For all we know in the two years Cerberus could have gained the attention of the public, be it due to its connection with Shepard (who is a widely known figure throughout the galaxy after the assault on the Citadel), a widespread terrorist campaign against government or military officials of other organizations or even for actively providing intel and assistance to remote Alliance colonies against hostile like batarians or pirates.

1)  A hell of a lot.  This wasn't the first time they attacked us it was just the most successful attack on our soil.

2)  Okay, that only works if they were just some terrorist organization alot of people didn't know about.  According to ME1, they were a rouge branch of military intelegence that just went rouge.  This, to me, seems contradictory to the portrail of Cerberus in ME2.

[Dean_the_Young]

Omnicrat wrote...

2)  So... I don't get it.  Nations have had black ops for a very long time, and those black ops are funded by the nations, not third parties.  Why would Cerberus be different?

They aren't. Not always, at least.

Nations have used alternative sources of funding to mask their connections with groups. Criminal dealings, insider trading, etc.

It's a good way to raise money, without taking from the tax payer, without being linked.

[Omnicrat]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

2)  So... I don't get it.  Nations have had black ops for a very long time, and those black ops are funded by the nations, not third parties.  Why would Cerberus be different?

They aren't. Not always, at least.

Nations have used alternative sources of funding to mask their connections with groups. Criminal dealings, insider trading, etc.

It's a good way to raise money, without taking from the tax payer, without being linked.

K.  I get the increased independence by seperating out funding thing, but there are still some pretty big holes I can see that only make sense if you are being lied to (a zulu says we are) or they retconned to remove the alliance connection.

1)  No one in the alliance knows tim's name.  He was the leader of a branch of military intelegence.  How could absolutely no one know his name?

2)  Pragia.  A)  This was over twenty years ago, arount the time the alliance had their spetial biotic program Kadien was in.  Why have both?    There were absolutly no mentions of ties to the alliance, just tim.  Disscounting zulu's theory (which would explain this part), they were an alliance intelegence branch at this point, why wouldn't they mention the alliance at all? 
note: I only discount this theory here because it still has some flaws as I see it, and my problems can't be solved in bits and peices of confilcting ideas.

3)  When was the anti-matter raid?  As I said, I might have my dates wrong, but I thought it came before the events of ME1.  If it does, then how could the rear admeral not realize it was a terrorist organization to the public and say something to the effect of "The alliance is/was using the terrorist organization Cerberus and they betrayed us!"?

[Dean_the_Young]

Omnicrat wrote...

K.  I get the increased independence by seperating out funding thing, but there are still some pretty big holes I can see that only make sense if you are being lied to (a zulu says we are) or they retconned to remove the alliance connection.

1)  No one in the alliance knows tim's name.  He was the leader of a branch of military intelegence.  How could absolutely no one know his name?

How do you know that no one in the Alliance knows TIM's name?

There's a difference between 'no one' and 'no one who isn't in on the Cerberus's conspiracy.' Most of the Alliance doesn't even know that Cerberus was even part of the Alliance in the first place: the people who do know both have their own reasons for not sharing (not admitting a link between the two) and are far more likely to be inclined to be part of the people with whom TIM retains contact (IE, his allies inside the Alliance).

The people who weren't in the know and wanted to keep quiet, may well have been killed in the split.

There's no reason the Alliance should have written TIM's name down and kept it as common knowledge: that sort of documentation is antithetical to black ops. The places where they did keep it could well have been targeted in the split.

2)  Pragia.  A)  This was over twenty years ago, arount the time the alliance had their spetial biotic program Kadien was in.  Why have both?

Different avenues of approach. One got advice from the aliens on how the Aliens would do it, while another was dedicated to cracking the human-biology side of the equation.

    There were absolutly no mentions of ties to the alliance, just tim. 

They also didn't mention BAATS. That doesn't mean BAATS didn't exist.

All the Pragia cells confirm is that TIM was involved with Cerberus in some sort of authority position. The nature of this position, and the nature of Cerberus as a whole, is never touched upon. But there isn't a contradiction between anything priorly established, because nothing said or implied that TIM wasn't involved with Cerberus even when it was associated with the Alliance.

Disscounting zulu's theory (which would explain this part), they were an alliance intelegence branch at this point, why wouldn't they mention the alliance at all?

Why would they? It would be considered common knowledge, and assumed everyone would know.

(Zulu's theory can be set aside for this discussion, but it doesn't contradict this part).

3)  When was the anti-matter raid?  As I said, I might have my dates wrong, but I thought it came before the events of ME1.  If it does, then how could the rear admeral not realize it was a terrorist organization to the public and say something to the effect of "The alliance is/was using the terrorist organization Cerberus and they betrayed us!"?

The anti-matter raid was well before ME1. It was the first recognized Cerberus operation.

The simple answer is because the Rear Admiral or whoever wouldn't have known. There's nothing to suggest, and everything to the opposite, that there was any sort of relationship between the Cerberus terrorists and the Alliance. It would be a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, or why, which is how classification systems usually work (in that large parts of a group don't know what another part of the group is doing).

Cerberus security clearance was high. Not 'Admiral' high, but higher than that: the top levels, and the need to know. If an Admiral did not need to know, he would have no reason to know the connection.

And if they did find out, like Kohaku, they'd get silenced. Like Kohaku.

[Omnicrat]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

K.  I get the increased independence by seperating out funding thing, but there are still some pretty big holes I can see that only make sense if you are being lied to (a zulu says we are) or they retconned to remove the alliance connection.

1)  No one in the alliance knows tim's name.  He was the leader of a branch of military intelegence.  How could absolutely no one know his name?

How do you know that no one in the Alliance knows TIM's name?

There's a difference between 'no one' and 'no one who isn't in on the Cerberus's conspiracy.' Most of the Alliance doesn't even know that Cerberus was even part of the Alliance in the first place: the people who do know both have their own reasons for not sharing (not admitting a link between the two) and are far more likely to be inclined to be part of the people with whom TIM retains contact (IE, his allies inside the Alliance).

The people who weren't in the know and wanted to keep quiet, may well have been killed in the split.

There's no reason the Alliance should have written TIM's name down and kept it as common knowledge: that sort of documentation is antithetical to black ops. The places where they did keep it could well have been targeted in the split.

2)  Pragia.  A)  This was over twenty years ago, arount the time the alliance had their spetial biotic program Kadien was in.  Why have both?

Different avenues of approach. One got advice from the aliens on how the Aliens would do it, while another was dedicated to cracking the human-biology side of the equation.

    There were absolutly no mentions of ties to the alliance, just tim. 

They also didn't mention BAATS. That doesn't mean BAATS didn't exist.

All the Pragia cells confirm is that TIM was involved with Cerberus in some sort of authority position. The nature of this position, and the nature of Cerberus as a whole, is never touched upon. But there isn't a contradiction between anything priorly established, because nothing said or implied that TIM wasn't involved with Cerberus even when it was associated with the Alliance.

Disscounting zulu's theory (which would explain this part), they were an alliance intelegence branch at this point, why wouldn't they mention the alliance at all?

Why would they? It would be considered common knowledge, and assumed everyone would know.

(Zulu's theory can be set aside for this discussion, but it doesn't contradict this part).

3)  When was the anti-matter raid?  As I said, I might have my dates wrong, but I thought it came before the events of ME1.  If it does, then how could the rear admeral not realize it was a terrorist organization to the public and say something to the effect of "The alliance is/was using the terrorist organization Cerberus and they betrayed us!"?

The anti-matter raid was well before ME1. It was the first recognized Cerberus operation.

The simple answer is because the Rear Admiral or whoever wouldn't have known. There's nothing to suggest, and everything to the opposite, that there was any sort of relationship between the Cerberus terrorists and the Alliance. It would be a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing, or why, which is how classification systems usually work (in that large parts of a group don't know what another part of the group is doing).

Cerberus security clearance was high. Not 'Admiral' high, but higher than that: the top levels, and the need to know. If an Admiral did not need to know, he would have no reason to know the connection.

And if they did find out, like Kohaku, they'd get silenced. Like Kohaku.

K.  I get 1 and  2.  I think I get 3.  Your saying that Kohaku wouldn't think these two organizations, both called Cerberus, are connected?

Most of my problems have been explained (granted, these explanations are not nessisarily true, just sensicle).  Now, my main problem is this;  Why absolutly no dialogue in ME1 metioning a Cerberus terrorist organization and why absolutly no dialogue in ME2 talking about the fact that Cerberus used to be part of the alliance

(also, I was not saying his theory contradicted the part in question, but that it solved it.  However, there are other problems with his theory.  The contradicion would come from taking his theory's explanation for one part and not all of it.)

[Dean_the_Young]

Omnicrat wrote...

K.  I get 1 and  2.  I think I get 3.  Your saying that Kohaku wouldn't think these two organizations, both called Cerberus, are connected?

There is no 'these two organizations.' Prior to the Shadow Broker deal, Kohaku had no knowledge of Cerberus as a uber-secret Alliance wing at all.

By the time Kohaku knew that Cerberus was connected to the Alliance, he was a dead man walking.

Most of my problems have been explained (granted, these explanations are not nessisarily true, just sensicle).  Now, my main problem is this;  Why absolutly no dialogue in ME1 metioning a Cerberus terrorist organization and why absolutly no dialogue in ME2 talking about the fact that Cerberus used to be part of the alliance

Cerberus was never a story element in ME1, but as I recall it did have a codex identifying it as a terrorist organization and even giving the reference about the anti-matter raid, which was never a dialogue aspect in ME1.

In ME2, the Alliance history (besides already being established in ME1) was never particularly relevant or worthy of dialogue. The Shadow Broker files on Cerberus re-confirms the 'rogue' status already articulated in ME1, but not hearing ME1 points regurgitated isn't much of a surprise considering most ME1 side points never were given but the briefest of mentions, if at all.


Nothing in ME2 contradicts ME1. Unless things contradict, one should always go with plot addition, not retconning, as explanations.

[Omnicrat]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...

K.  I get 1 and  2.  I think I get 3.  Your saying that Kohaku wouldn't think these two organizations, both called Cerberus, are connected?

There is no 'these two organizations.' Prior to the Shadow Broker deal, Kohaku had no knowledge of Cerberus as a uber-secret Alliance wing at all.

By the time Kohaku knew that Cerberus was connected to the Alliance, he was a dead man walking.

Most of my problems have been explained (granted, these explanations are not nessisarily true, just sensicle).  Now, my main problem is this;  Why absolutly no dialogue in ME1 metioning a Cerberus terrorist organization and why absolutly no dialogue in ME2 talking about the fact that Cerberus used to be part of the alliance

Cerberus was never a story element in ME1, but as I recall it did have a codex identifying it as a terrorist organization and even giving the reference about the anti-matter raid, which was never a dialogue aspect in ME1.

In ME2, the Alliance history (besides already being established in ME1) was never particularly relevant or worthy of dialogue. The Shadow Broker files on Cerberus re-confirms the 'rogue' status already articulated in ME1, but not hearing ME1 points regurgitated isn't much of a surprise considering most ME1 side points never were given but the briefest of mentions, if at all.


Nothing in ME2 contradicts ME1. Unless things contradict, one should always go with plot addition, not retconning, as explanations.

1) ,,, now I don't get it.  Cerberus was seen as terrorists, so did Kohaku ever call them a terrorist organization?

2)  Tim himself seems contradictory to me.  How does one man (who used to work for the alliance) totally run an alliance black ops organization in the first place?  Shouldn't some official higher up have been in charge, all the cells reporting to him?

[Dean_the_Young]

Omnicrat wrote...
1) ,,, now I don't get it.  Cerberus was seen as terrorists, so did Kohaku ever call them a terrorist organization?

Kohaku didn't even know of Cerberus's involvement prior to the revelation of why the Alliance Brass were giving him the run around. There being mentioned as terrorists had no place when their first tie-in to the events of the Kohaku arc was the revelation that they were actually Alliance.


There was no 'Cerberus did this! Those damn terrorists!' phase in the story before a further revelation of 'Cerberus is actually Alliance?' Kohaku didn't have any reason to believe anything about Terrorist involvement: when he went to the Shadow Broker, the Broker just gave him the full scoop at once, and which point Cerberus's true nature superceded their public-nature in the relevance to what the player needed to be told.

2)  Tim himself seems contradictory to me.  How does one man (who used to work for the alliance) totally run an alliance black ops organization in the first place?  Shouldn't some official higher up have been in charge, all the cells reporting to him?

TIM is that man.

He might not have always been that man. He might have had to work for some time to get in a place where he could leave with the whole organization. But, eventually, TIM arranged things so that he was the one all the cells were reporting to, and that he was in charge of enough of the Cerberus assets to make (and survive) a break.

There's nearly always a level in subordinate independent organizations at which one person is in charge of everything else below them, and that the higher levels go to that person alone. Heirarchial organization favors linear vertical authority, not paths, simply because it's easier.

[Omnicrat]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...
1) ,,, now I don't get it.  Cerberus was seen as terrorists, so did Kohaku ever call them a terrorist organization?

Kohaku didn't even know of Cerberus's involvement prior to the revelation of why the Alliance Brass were giving him the run around. There being mentioned as terrorists had no place when their first tie-in to the events of the Kohaku arc was the revelation that they were actually Alliance.


There was no 'Cerberus did this! Those damn terrorists!' phase in the story before a further revelation of 'Cerberus is actually Alliance?' Kohaku didn't have any reason to believe anything about Terrorist involvement: when he went to the Shadow Broker, the Broker just gave him the full scoop at once, and which point Cerberus's true nature superceded their public-nature in the relevance to what the player needed to be told.

2)  Tim himself seems contradictory to me.  How does one man (who used to work for the alliance) totally run an alliance black ops organization in the first place?  Shouldn't some official higher up have been in charge, all the cells reporting to him?

TIM is that man.

He might not have always been that man. He might have had to work for some time to get in a place where he could leave with the whole organization. But, eventually, TIM arranged things so that he was the one all the cells were reporting to, and that he was in charge of enough of the Cerberus assets to make (and survive) a break.

There's nearly always a level in subordinate independent organizations at which one person is in charge of everything else below them, and that the higher levels go to that person alone. Heirarchial organization favors linear vertical authority, not paths, simply because it's easier.

1) ... I guess that makes sense... I know I would have mentioned the fact that the alliance has been passing a covert branch of the military off as terrorists and has been doing horrible things, but maybe thats just me.

2)  Then, wouldn't the alliance president/premier/PM know who tim is?  Wouldn't he be able to wipe out cerberus, or at least assasinate tim for his betrayal?

[SandTrout]

Omnicrat wrote...
2) Then, wouldn't the alliance president/premier/PM know who tim is? 
Wouldn't he be able to wipe out cerberus, or at least assasinate tim for his betrayal?

The point of being the Illusive Man at this point is that he has no ties left in the normal everyday world. Every connection he has is through Cerberus, which in turn controls key parts of the Alliance, and possibly is in league with the head executive of the Alliance. There is no false or 'public' identity that TIM has to maintain, because he NEVER meets anyone that's not Cerberus. The central HQ of Cerberus, where he has his conversations with Shepard from, is mobile and largely self-suficient with a crew onboard that never leaves.

The is no opportunity for some reporter to make a big reveal that "Corporate CEO leads terrorist organization!" in a headline, because TIM left his old life behind and cut all ties. His old name is completely irrelevant because it's not tied to an address or bank account.

Modifié par SandTrout, 23 janvier 2011 - 06:15 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

The Alliance is a democracy with free elections. There is of course the ongoing debate about the influence of corporations in 'free elections', but I hope we can agree to set that aside?

No, we can't, because this is the very thing that keeps people from admitting that TIM and Cerberus are flesh and blood of the Alliance.

It may be a surprise to you, but all communist regimes, except the Khmer Rouge, had "free elections" and were "people's democracies". And considering the "Chinese Federation" still has a "Politburo" (which isn't a government institution per se, but a Communist Party institution) in the ME timeline, and has been one of the major constituents of the Systems Alliance, and the western democratic regimes have another 150 years to develop (just look at the "free electons" in the US 150 years ago), this "Alliance is a democracy with free elections" can mean anything. We know for sure only of a very elaborate requirements for voting on the "spacer" seats of the Alliance Parliament. We don't know for sure if there are any "Earth" seats at all, and it's doubtdul since it's been said that the Alliance gained de-facto political independence even before the Parliament was created. And the "colonist" seats may feature any kind of qualification for the voters too: residential, property, employment, marital, age, military service, religious - most probably varying from colony to colony.

Moiaussi wrote...

Where is your Berlin Wall keeping everyone from doing these things?

No Berlin Wall there. You got the money, you emigrate. To the Terminus Systems where the Collectors get you.

Note: Do you realize that it takes a lot of money to build a colony from scratch? It's not like you just pay for a ticket (which can't be cheap for an average Joe). It's a freaking space colonization!

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 janvier 2011 - 09:56 .

[Digifi]

The other part to consider is that with any clandestine organization, even people close to or associated with it won't know everything that is going on to increase operational security. Also, the private fronts for Cerberus would give them greater operational freedom while increasing the plausible deniability of the Alliance. In that instance, 5 (arbitrary) or fewer people in the Alliance could know that Cerberus will do stuff on behalf of the Alliance and it would still be effective due to the separation of money and command structure.

EDIT:
So for instance, if Anderson didn't have need to know that Cerberus answered at least somewhat to the Alliance then he wouldn't have been told to increase opsec and then, when presented the ability to take Cerberus down he joins with the Turians to do that because he has no idea there's an Alliance connection, if the hypothetical Alliance/Cerberus connection were true.

Modifié par Digifi, 23 janvier 2011 - 09:31 .

[Omnicrat]

SandTrout wrote...

Omnicrat wrote...
2) Then, wouldn't the alliance president/premier/PM know who tim is? 
Wouldn't he be able to wipe out cerberus, or at least assasinate tim for his betrayal?

The point of being the Illusive Man at this point is that he has no ties left in the normal everyday world. Every connection he has is through Cerberus, which in turn controls key parts of the Alliance, and possibly is in league with the head executive of the Alliance. There is no false or 'public' identity that TIM has to maintain, because he NEVER meets anyone that's not Cerberus. The central HQ of Cerberus, where he has his conversations with Shepard from, is mobile and largely self-suficient with a crew onboard that never leaves.

The is no opportunity for some reporter to make a big reveal that "Corporate CEO leads terrorist organization!" in a headline, because TIM left his old life behind and cut all ties. His old name is completely irrelevant because it's not tied to an address or bank account.

My point was that the alliance knew who he was or how to find him or something, so (unless retconning has taken place) why didn't they go after him asap?

[Omnicrat]

Digifi wrote...

The other part to consider is that with any clandestine organization, even people close to or associated with it won't know everything that is going on to increase operational security. Also, the private fronts for Cerberus would give them greater operational freedom while increasing the plausible deniability of the Alliance. In that instance, 5 (arbitrary) or fewer people in the Alliance could know that Cerberus will do stuff on behalf of the Alliance and it would still be effective due to the separation of money and command structure.

EDIT:
So for instance, if Anderson didn't have need to know that Cerberus answered at least somewhat to the Alliance then he wouldn't have been told to increase opsec and then, when presented the ability to take Cerberus down he joins with the Turians to do that because he has no idea there's an Alliance connection, if the hypothetical Alliance/Cerberus connection were true.

In ME1, it says Cerberus is a rouge branch of covert operations of the Alliance.  This thread is about whether or not this remains the case in ME2, or if they have changed the history of Cerberus for ME2.

[Digifi]

I don't see any indication that it was changed for ME2. And if they had retconned it that way they're going to have a really hard go with the direction they've chosen for Evolution. The thing is, the level of connection has never been well defined. It looks as if Cerberus has taken direct action on behalf of the Alliance in the past, but the private funding and whatnot would make it easy to go rogue and by the time ME2 comes out they appear to not have any current involvement with the Alliance.



But, consider when TIM says "I may have let it slip that you were alive and working for us" after the Horizon mission. Who did he let it slip to? Was it the Cerberus guy we see talking to Anderson in the LotSB footage? Was TIM having a mimosa at brunch with Adm Hackett? Sure, the VS is sent to Horizon as part of a plot to investigate you and Cerberus, but at the same time Adm Hackett tells another Alliance investigator to not bring you in (from LotSB)? That sort of thing could easily be explained by the shortcircuiting of the military intelligence construct when working with and against a clandestine organization of which a very small number of Alliance personnel actually know the truth about.

[Omnicrat]

Digifi wrote...

I don't see any indication that it was changed for ME2. And if they had retconned it that way they're going to have a really hard go with the direction they've chosen for Evolution. The thing is, the level of connection has never been well defined. It looks as if Cerberus has taken direct action on behalf of the Alliance in the past, but the private funding and whatnot would make it easy to go rogue and by the time ME2 comes out they appear to not have any current involvement with the Alliance.

But, consider when TIM says "I may have let it slip that you were alive and working for us" after the Horizon mission. Who did he let it slip to? Was it the Cerberus guy we see talking to Anderson in the LotSB footage? Was TIM having a mimosa at brunch with Adm Hackett? Sure, the VS is sent to Horizon as part of a plot to investigate you and Cerberus, but at the same time Adm Hackett tells another Alliance investigator to not bring you in (from LotSB)? That sort of thing could easily be explained by the shortcircuiting of the military intelligence construct when working with and against a clandestine organization of which a very small number of Alliance personnel actually know the truth about.

Maybe I just missed it, but 2 had no mention of formerly being alliance (which is explainable) and 1 had no mention of the public knowing ANYTHING about Cerberus, let alone the fact that it was viewed as a terrorist organization.

Maybe its just my idealism zealot showing, but I would think the alliance was really controling a pro-human terrorist organization would be a plot point.  Sense it is not, retconning made the most sense to me.  Alot of my problems have been at least partially answered (although not nessisarily correctly) but this one I'm talking about now is still really bothering me.

[Zulu_DFA]

Omnicrat wrote...

2)  Okay, that only works if they were just some terrorist organization alot of people didn't know about.  According to ME1, they were a rouge branch of military intelegence that just went rouge.  This, to me, seems contradictory to the portrail of Cerberus in ME2.

It's never been said that it was "a branch of military intelligence".

An extremest-terrorist-criminal-clandestine group that answers to a government, but has not a single documented peice of evidence that connects it to said gvernment is perfectly fitting the definition of said governmet's "black ops organization".

As for "going rogue", it's just an opinion of an NPC. Plus the word "rogue" can be thrown around with a more broad meaning than "uncontrolled".

http://social.biowar...0890/17#5029915

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 janvier 2011 - 10:26 .

[Digifi]

I have a feeling that the comic, and then the upcoming DLC may make some of the history of the alliance and cerberus a plot point. You are right that the in game information is thin, which I think is intentional but I really believe we'll get a lot of answers in the next few months.

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
No, we can't, because this is the very thing that keeps people from admitting that TIM and Cerberus are flesh and blood of the Alliance.

It may be a surprise to you, but all communist regimes, except the Khmer Rouge, had "free elections" and were "people's democracies". And considering the "Chinese Federation" still has a "Politburo" (which isn't a government institution per se, but a Communist Party institution) in the ME timeline, and has been one of the major constituents of the Systems Alliance, and the western democratic regimes have another 150 years to develop (just look at the "free electons" in the US 150 years ago), this "Alliance is a democracy with free elections" can mean anything. We know for sure only of a very elaborate requirements for voting on the "spacer" seats of the Alliance Parliament. We don't know for sure if there are any "Earth" seats at all, and it's doubtdul since it's been said that the Alliance gained de-facto political independence even before the Parliament was created. And the "colonist" seats may feature any kind of qualification for the voters too: residential, property, employment, marital, age, military service, religious - most probably varying from colony to colony.

The US had independance before electing its first president too. It is hard to have free elections as a nation that doesn't exist yet.

Pointing out that democracy is inherrently flawed doesn't mean it isn't democracy, and calling one party nations such as China "democratic" is spurious.

Your speculation on the composition of the Alliance is just that, speculation. Regardless, it has absolutely nothing to do with whether Horizon or any other system considered to be outside Alliance space is anywhere near as alliance dependant as you seem to think.

No Berlin Wall there. You got the money, you emigrate. To the Terminus Systems where the Collectors get you.

Note: Do you realize that it takes a lot of money to build a colony from scratch? It's not like you just pay for a ticket (which can't be cheap for an average Joe). It's a freaking space colonization!

The only costs above and beyond those of starting up any manufacturing business inside Alliance space are those of transportation, and those costs are entirely unclear. The Normandy doesn't seem to have any trouble covering its fuel costs without any help from TIM or any other source, so why would any given band of would-be colonists? Yes there is expense and yes there is significant risk, but that was true in the colonial periods on Earth. Settling in North America, though usually meant just having transportation and enough initial supplies, and then surviving long enough to get established.

Consider how much the Normandy recovers in minerals alone as a scout vessel. You don't figure a dedicated mining colony could do better? 

And this whole line of discussion has been about 'the collectors getting you.' And about their ties to the reapers. And the accusation that the Alliance are doing nothing about it whereas TIM is acting as a saint, or at least a savior.

You seem to have either missed or lost the context here....

[Zulu_DFA]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
No, we can't, because this is the very thing that keeps people from admitting that TIM and Cerberus are flesh and blood of the Alliance.

It may be a surprise to you, but all communist regimes, except the Khmer Rouge, had "free elections" and were "people's democracies". And considering the "Chinese Federation" still has a "Politburo" (which isn't a government institution per se, but a Communist Party institution) in the ME timeline, and has been one of the major constituents of the Systems Alliance, and the western democratic regimes have another 150 years to develop (just look at the "free electons" in the US 150 years ago), this "Alliance is a democracy with free elections" can mean anything. We know for sure only of a very elaborate requirements for voting on the "spacer" seats of the Alliance Parliament. We don't know for sure if there are any "Earth" seats at all, and it's doubtdul since it's been said that the Alliance gained de-facto political independence even before the Parliament was created. And the "colonist" seats may feature any kind of qualification for the voters too: residential, property, employment, marital, age, military service, religious - most probably varying from colony to colony.

The US had independance before electing its first president too. It is hard to have free elections as a nation that doesn't exist yet.

Pointing out that democracy is inherrently flawed doesn't mean it isn't democracy, and calling one party nations such as China "democratic" is spurious.

Your speculation on the composition of the Alliance is just that, speculation. Regardless, it has absolutely nothing to do with whether Horizon or any other system considered to be outside Alliance space is anywhere near as alliance dependant as you seem to think.

Before the US had independence, they had representative parliamentary institutions. One of the major reasons for the indepenedence was that the King denied the colonies to let their elected representives sit in the Parliament in London.

And I'm not arguing here that democracy is inherently flawed.I'm saying that elecotions don't automatically mean democracy. The British Parliament dates back to the 13th century, when 99% of the "demos" were serfs. Also,  calling elections "free" is a matter of opinion. Even western political scientists can't come to one definition. And spurious or not, China and North Korea boast that they are more free and democratic countries than the United States, and the majority of the population there either believes in it or doesn't care.

And your speculation that the Alliance is a western democracy is just that, speculation. And it does have everything to do with how the Alliance policy-makers regard the Human colonies and their population. And, just to remind you, 150 years ago in the US there was a war over what some people thought was their right to self-determinate and be
independend of the government they did not respect. They were called seditionists and mutineers and brought to their knees (or put in their graves).

Moiaussi wrote...

No Berlin Wall there. You got the money, you emigrate. To the Terminus Systems where the Collectors get you.

Note: Do you realize that it takes a lot of money to build a colony from scratch? It's not like you just pay for a ticket (which can't be cheap for an average Joe). It's a freaking space colonization!

The only costs above and beyond those of starting up any manufacturing business inside Alliance space are those of transportation, and those costs are entirely unclear. The Normandy doesn't seem to have any trouble covering its fuel costs without any help from TIM or any other source, so why would any given band of would-be colonists? Yes there is expense and yes there is significant risk, but that was true in the colonial periods on Earth. Settling in North America, though usually meant just having transportation and enough initial supplies, and then surviving long enough to get established.

Consider how much the Normandy recovers in minerals alone as a scout vessel. You don't figure a dedicated mining colony could do better? 

Don't mix the silly gameplay mechanic with the story. In the Codex it is explicitly said that operating military ships comes at enormous costs. Civilian spacecraft use cheeper and slower propulsion systems.

And the sole premise of creating the Alliance was that space colonization was too costly even for individual Earth's nations. It wasn't formed in a merger of self-sufficient self-established colonies into a federation. It's an empire, plain and simple.

And your "dedicated mining colony" can't outcompete a "not dedicated but Elfdel-Ashland affiliated mining colony". That's simple economics.

Moiaussi wrote...

And this whole line of discussion has been about 'the collectors getting you.' And about their ties to the reapers. And the accusation that the Alliance are doing nothing about it whereas TIM is acting as a saint, or at least a savior.

You seem to have either missed or lost the context here....

I think you've mixed up threads. This discussion you're taking about has been going in the "Is TIM really evil?" thread.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 janvier 2011 - 11:25 .

[Arijharn]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up, but the alliance at the moment does still have an intelligence organisation as well, the Virmire survivor makes mention of it as 'alliance intel had heard reports' on Horizon.



I think Cerberus maintaining close links with the Alliance is becoming more and more plausible imo. While props to Zulu for making that glorious thread is deserved, I think a lot of people independently came to that same conclusion.

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

I'm not sure if this has been brought up, but the alliance at the moment does still have an intelligence organisation as well, the Virmire survivor makes mention of it as 'alliance intel had heard reports' on Horizon.

I think Cerberus maintaining close links with the Alliance is becoming more and more plausible imo. While props to Zulu for making that glorious thread is deserved, I think a lot of people independently came to that same conclusion.

The Alliance not having any official military intelligence would raise eyebrows (or whatever) on the Citadel.

As for my thread, I never really said I am the only smart person out there [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/cool.png[/smilie]. In fact, people doubted Kahoku's assessment even before ME2 came out. Based on Adm. Hackett's behavior, I suppose, and Kahoku's death cover-up.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 janvier 2011 - 11:43 .

[Arijharn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
The Alliance not having any official military intelligence would raise eyebrows (or whatever) on the Citadel.

That's food for thought, if Cerberus is used with more frequency, then perhaps alliance intel (which also made the guestimate on current Spectre numbers iirc) exists at a greatly 'reduced' capacity with Cerberus doing the primary lifting (aka; out-sourcing).

Perhaps AIS exists primarily as a way for foreign intelligence operatives to liasion with? 

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
The Alliance not having any official military intelligence would raise eyebrows (or whatever) on the Citadel.

That's food for thought, if Cerberus is used with more frequency, then perhaps alliance intel (which also made the guestimate on current Spectre numbers iirc) exists at a greatly 'reduced' capacity with Cerberus doing the primary lifting (aka; out-sourcing).

Perhaps AIS exists primarily as a way for foreign intelligence operatives to liasion with? 

Military Inteligence, the geatest oxymoron ever.
- Samuel L. Jackson (I mean one of his characters)

Yes, that's what I think too. The AIS does the paper-pushing, while the heavy-lifting is outsourced to Cerberus.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 janvier 2011 - 12:05 .