24 réponses à ce sujet

[Callidus Thorn]

Hey all, I've been thinking about creating a Cleric/Mage character for Baldur's Gate, and I've got a few questions about the class:
1. Are they actually any good? Being able to cast arcane and divine spells sounds good, but is it really effective.
2. How do they fight? Being limited to slings seems to rule out ranged combat, while being unable to cast mage spells in armour seems to rule out melee combat, or am I missing something.
3. What sort of stats should I be aiming for? There just seems to be too many stats that I need to be high,

Any help would ce greatly appreciated.

[oyzar]

To solve the problem with not being able to cast spells while wearing armor just don't use it and keep from being targeted most of the time. It is still possible to get way better defenses than any other class by using defensive spells.



In BG1 slings are definatly the way to go for weapons. Spells are also usually ranged.



Cleric have access to a ton of spells, both mage spells and cleric spells are useful. Various incarnations of fighter/mage are probably more powerful, but other than that a properly used cleric/mage are the class with most potential in the game.



Yeah there are really a lot of stats you want to be high for cleric mage, though if you turn down difficulty learning spells so you don't fail any you can prolly drop some int (i suggest starting with at least 15 if playing through BG1 and at least 16 if you start from BG2). Wisdom there would be one reason to have it lower than 18, and that would be because you are a gnome and hence illusionist/cleric (which loses out the possiblity of casting necromancy spells (which actually isn't a big deal before you reach level 8 spells late in BG2) and gains an extra mage spell per level(one extra level 1 spell, level 2 spell etc...)). Dex should be 18 and con 16(though starting at 15 might be fine). Strength needs to be at least 10 to not get penalties i belive, however if you manage an insane roll you can go with 18. For BG1 charisma is rather important but you can just put imoen or something to lead your party as only the cha of the #1 character ever matter, for BG2 there is a ring gained very early that solves the problem of low cha. At 8 or so cha you won't get penalties from enemies, but i can understand if you can't get that high roll, int can also be dumped a bit further but that eventually leaves you with very little space for spells per level. So ideal min stats, with if you can get that high roll in paranthesis:

str: 9(18) dex: 18 con: 15(16, 17 for gnome) int: 15(18, 18 is preferable if you play core rules or higher or unmodded BG1) wis: 18 cha: 3(18, basically put all the rest of the stats here after you have put everything else, though strength points between 10 and 16 are useless so if you got 5 extra poinst rather put them here than strength).

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Try to play BG1 as a ranged character and spell caster. You won't be far behind either other clerics or other mages in their respective areas of expertise, so you should be completely alright.

Unless you're using Spell Revisions, you will never get a good amount of attacks per round*, so you should really focus on your spells. And unless you are planning on taking on some bif foe in melee in the middle of BG1 (like the Death Knight underneath Durlag's Tower), strength should not be a major concern. In BG2, whenever you feel it's necessary, it'll take but a few spells to bring your strength score to 25.

What is the idea behind the Cleric/Mage? He neither is the dude with the most powerful spells nor the guy with the highest amount of (for instance) Magic Missiles. He is versatile. He can cast Cleric spells faster than other clerics and he can mix clerical buffs with arcane buffs. You might try using the Harm spell during a Time Stop or exploit the maximum damage effect of Righteous Magic along with the Shapechange spells. Use a Spell Trigger with 3 Holy Smites as a very cheap and instantly cast ADHW.

*That means you may be effective, but you will never be as effective with weapons as with using your spells.

[Bhryaen]

Callidus Thorn wrote...
... Cleric/Mage character...:
1. Are they actually any good? Being able to cast arcane and divine spells sounds good, but is it really effective.

It depends on what you want them to be good at. I just ran a cleric/ mage, and like Humanoid_Taifun said, they're always behind in level from single-class casters, but generally only one level behind when they are with a large assortment of spells to choose from. But the range of spells they cast makes them very useful, fulfilling multiple roles. If anything you end up having to make sacrifices in combat situations as to whether in a particular round to go offensive, buff someone (or yourself), or heal someone. I made mine carry heavy armor and a shield so that if it came down to it and no spellcasting would help, they could serve as a backup tank as well. The large shield with its bonuses against piercing weapons also helped for when we got surrounded by the archer firing squads. My straight mage didn't have that option and had to scramble more.

2. How do they fight? Being limited to slings seems to rule out ranged combat, while being unable to cast mage spells in armour seems to rule out melee combat, or am I missing something.

My C/M was definitely not the tank in terms of delivering on the frontline, even with boosts and a magic weapon always trailing others in THAC0, but not bad. Also like Humanoid_Taifun said, the attacks per round were low at higher levels: I believe still 1 APR at Level 8/8. But every once in a while he'd get in the killing blow with a crit or something, so I'd give 'im an "attaboy." Plus the cleric class HP makes him (relatively) more able to take hits than a mage or mage/thief. If you use a mod to remove the (in my opinion) entirely unjustifiable weapons restrictions for clerics, you could use a bow instead of a sling, and that's what I did, but it is annoying having to switch the bow and shield in inventory on a regular basis. Definitely the C/M is better as an archer/ spellcaster in general, but they become a good "backup" for everything except roguery (except for "Detect Traps," of course). Again what Humanoid_Taifun said about "versatility-" they can do plenty more or less well, but spellcasting is their obvious key asset.

3. What sort of stats should I be aiming for? There just seems to be too many stats that I need to be high

Tops would be INT and WIS, the rest sacrificeable to lesser or greater degrees. Unlike what Oyzar said, higher INT is also important for total number of spells you can memorize per spell level: i.e., a 14 INT means you can have far fewer spells total in your spellbook. Higher WIS means more spells you can prepare at each rest. C/M's are made for spellcasting. So if you're going to min-max, max those two. DEX would be next highest to keep from getting hit and make any ranged attacks count more. CHA is, as Oyzar said, quite useful in BG, so you should try to max that if you can, and you'll only be able to make use of 16 CON at the highest anyway (because you're not a fighter) so I'd squeeze to get the 15 or 16 CON, at least a 15 in CHA maybe. Then STR... It's very important in general, and if you did want to be able in an emergency to wield any weapon of weight or carry heavy armor or a heavy shield, you'll need at least enough STR to do so- say 14 or 15- but if you can't manage it statwise, just let your char be primarily a mage type wearing bracers or a robe and protect yourself with DEX, CON, and, of course, tanks. Even if you can manage to carry all that armor and weaponry- and, mind you, the max STR you can get as a C/M is 18 anyway which isn't nearly as signficant as fighter STR can get- you'll end up not being able to carry much of anything else but rings, gems, and scrolls, but that's what I did, relying on tanks for the rest, and it worked fairly well.

[The Fred]

I played a Cleric/Mage recently and it was great. Yes, you lag behind in the strength of spells, getting each level later and so on, but you make up for it in variety. You can consider yourself a mage who can heal, a cleric with mage buffs, or somewhere in between. Being able combine almost all (all in vanilla) the spells in the game is pretty awesome. No your can't wear armour but with a shield you'll still have better AC than a pure mage and you can use Shield/Mage Armour, Mirror Image, Blur etc. to great effect.



Buffing can get tedious, though, once you can cast 20 different spells.

[Callidus Thorn]

Thanks for the replies. Stat-wise I'll aim for STR14, DEX18, CON16, INT18, WIS18, CHR8. I've gotten rolls that high with previous characters, so I'm not aiming for the impossible. Although I might just use a save editor to get them rather than spend a few minutes re-rolling, since I'll be changing his appearance to a human mage anyway.

Now to find a mod to let my Cleric/Mage use a bow...

Modifié par Callidus Thorn, 23 janvier 2011 - 12:31 .

[The Fred]

I reckon Wis is more important than Int, since in BG only Wis gives bonus spells. You can easily get by with 17 Int, for example, if you need an extra point somewhere.

[Grond0]

I agree with the Fred about intelligence. You could manage easily enough with a still lower score and just use potions of dexterity / genius when you want to learn more spells. However, before doing that I would also allow charisma to drop to 3 and maximise strength. There's nothing in the game that requires a higher charisma and for talking to people and shopkeepers you can anyway just use someone else (Imoen wearing cloak of Algernon has 18 charisma and can go higher if you dual her to mage).

[Callidus Thorn]

Yeah I think I'll drop Charisma a few points, I never play charismatic characters, it should make rolling his stats a little less time consuming. As for high strength, that suggests a more melee based role, which would mean either ditching arcane spellcasting and wearing armour, or using the armour spell a lot.

Modifié par Callidus Thorn, 23 janvier 2011 - 05:14 .

[Grond0]

Callidus Thorn wrote...

Yeah I think I'll drop Charisma a few points, I never play charismatic characters, it should make rolling his stats a little less time consuming. As for high strength, that suggests a more melee based role, which would mean either ditching arcane spellcasting and wearing armour, or using the armour spell a lot.

A melee role as backup would be no bad thing.  With both cleric and mage buffs available the character should be a formidable opponent in melee and some opponents are much more easily damaged by melee than magic.  Strength is also handy to allow you to carry more - for instance if you are toting bodies, ankheg shells or looted sets of armour around.

[Callidus Thorn]

That's a very good point actually, especially since using a sling as a primary weapon is somewhat underwhelming. I was considering always having a suit of armour in his inventory, so he's not as vulnerable if attacked while resting to replenish his spells.



Although if I can find a mod that will let me, I'll be giving him a crossbow.

[billywaffles]

I don't think that's a good idea. The sling isn't very good but at least you can have your shield equiped at the same time. You aren't going to tank anyway, but shield helps also vs ranged.

[Bhryaen]

Grond0 wrote...
I agree with the Fred about intelligence. You could manage easily enough with a still lower score and just use potions of dexterity / genius when you want to learn more spells.

Does this mean that I could reach the limit of my spellbook, drink an INT-increasing potion, learn even more spells, and then the new spells would remain even when the potion wore off? Sheesh...

Callidus Thorn wrote...
Although if I can find a mod that will let me, I'll be giving him a crossbow.

Ashes of Embers or Level1NPCs 
It's only one component in several of both of those mods...

That's true also about CHA though. Despite its importance you really only need one NPC in the party (in the lead slot) with a high CHA to use it effectively. My C/M had a 3 CHA, 18 STR hehe

A crossbow/ composite bow would be fine, but you'd have to do a lot of quick inventory switching between your shield and bow (since you can't hold a two-handed weapon like a bow at the same time you hold a shield), and it would be possible to be attacked with your shield down in the meantime. I did it anyway, but it's that much riskier. Using a sling leaves you more constantly protected by a shield. Actually I'm not sure if a shield prevents arcane casting in vanilla BG or if it's a mod that creates that restriction.

As a tank I used my C/M- among other places- to plug up a certain narrow causeway that would've otherwise allowed monsters to overwhelm us while the rest of the party concentrated on defeating the boss. Because the C/M had on his field plate (equivalent) armor and the monsters he was blocking weren't able to hit him so easily, the rest were able to take out the regenerating boss. Without him as the backup tank, I'm not sure how we'd have managed that situation. C/M's don't necessarily provide the best alternatives but they can provide more alternatives in a single char. I suppose bards are supposed to be like that, but, well, not quite the same...

Modifié par Bhryaen, 24 janvier 2011 - 12:20 .

[Callidus Thorn]

Thanks for the links Bhryaen, greatly appreciated.

I think I will drop CHR in favour of strength. That way, when I rest to replenish spells, I can equip the armour first, maybe switch to a mace and shield, in case I get attacked.

[The Fred]

In vanilla BG you can use a helmet and shield just fine, and slings are pretty decent too, especially early on when Slings +1 are easy to get but decent bows aren't. With a robe of the Archmagi or Bracers of Armour you can get your AC not quite as low as with a good suit of armour, but not far off, and with the plethora of buffs you have available, you should be better defended than a fighter (especially given AC does nothing vs. most spells, whereas Mirror Image, Blur, etc do).

You could also use buffs like Strength or Draw Upon Holy Might to make yourself more formiddable in melee, though it's nice to have a decend strength without having to rely on them.

[Callidus Thorn]

I'll give both approaches a try: sling and shield, for an easy switch to a mace, and a crossbow, for more ranged power, but more vulnerability. See which I like more.



At the moment I'm wondering on my chances of even reaching the friendly arm inn. Recently installed easytutu, and my Thief/Mage test pilot has been having real trouble (too many monsters at once, and not enough sleep spells).

[EEmotion]

Chain contingency makes it shine since you can use all cleric spells. *cough* Greater restoration* *cough*

[Grond0]

Bhryaen wrote...
Does this mean that I could reach the limit of my spellbook, drink an INT-increasing potion, learn even more spells, and then the new spells would remain even when the potion wore off? Sheesh...

It does - kind of removes the point of high intelligence doesn't it!  There is actually still some advantage, e.g. if being attacked by mind-flayers, but it's fairly minimal.

Callidus Thorn wrote...
At the moment I'm wondering on my chances of even reaching the friendly arm inn. Recently installed easytutu, and my Thief/Mage test pilot has been having real trouble (too many monsters at once, and not enough sleep spells).

That does tend to be a bit of a problem at the start of games.  You may need to resign yourself to lots of running around with a lead character while others shoot up the monsters (run, shoot, run, repeat ... is also possible if playing solo, but you need to be even more careful).  Even if you don't want them long term recruiting Xzar and Montaron just to get you to the Friendly Arm isn't a bad idea.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Callidus Thorn wrote...
I'll give both approaches a try: sling and shield, for an easy switch to a mace, and a crossbow, for more ranged power, but more vulnerability. See which I like more.

Yeah, well, about that.
In BG1 there is a Light Crossbow of Speed +1, which gives you 1 extra attack per round. This puts it on the same level as all the bows you might find lying around. Crossbows deal 1 more point of damage in general, but there are lots of bows with a higher damage bonus than +1 (+3 for example), and ammunition for bows tends to be better as well (Arrows of Explosion, Arrows of Dispelling...)

In BG2, there is a bow with 2 extra attacks per round, and if bows and crossbows didn't suck that much in BG2, that'd be the end of the discussion. But really, a CM should use the Sling of Seeking, because it doesn't matter if you can shoot 2 or 3 missiles for ~ 5 damage in the same round, if you could shoot one missile for >20 damage instead.

[Callidus Thorn]

maybe I won't give him a crossbow then, 1 point of damage doesn't seem worth a slower rate of fire. Why do bows and crossbows suck in BG2?

[Humanoid_Taifun]

As I said, bows and crossbows don't deal very much damage in BG2. The bonus damage for enchantment has been removed for arrows, bolts, bows and crossbows, but interestingly not for slings and sling stones. On top of that, the Sling of Seeking adds Strength bonus damage, which for a cleric should always be 14, so you'll be looking at 14 (strength) + 2 (sling) + 5-9 (bullet, various enchantment levels) = 21 - 25 points of damage, depending on the type of bullet you use.

[The Fred]

Callidus Thorn wrote...
At the moment I'm wondering on my chances of even reaching the friendly arm inn. Recently installed easytutu, and my Thief/Mage test pilot has been having real trouble (too many monsters at once, and not enough sleep spells).

This is one advantage of being a Cleric/Mage; at low levels, you can take lots of Sleep AND Entangle, two great low-level spells (obviously you may also want a couple of other things but these are the bread-and-butter).

[Valamyr]

Cleric-Mage is a great build, IMO. Go Elf and try for 19 Dex, 16 Con, 18 Int and 18 Wis. Its OK to have STR and CHA at miniimum levels; use the Ring of Human Influence and if you need STR for some reason, one of the dime-a-dozen XYZ-Giant belts lying around Of course thats for BG2. In BG1, low Str and Cha are actual drawbacks, but its still worth it to use them as dump stats if you must IMO. Just have a character with an higher Cha be party leader

As an alternative, even though it requires a mod, a Sorcerer with the "Semi-Multi Cleric" mod is just amazing. It essentially adds a bunch of cleric spells to the core arcane lineup of a Sorcerer. Possibly a bit overpowered, but the most fun Ive had with a Arcane/Divine hybrid type!

Modifié par Valamyr, 25 janvier 2011 - 07:22 .

[The Fred]

You could use the Gauntlets of Ogre power or even the Gauntlets of Dexterity (though it's not nice having low Dex until you find them), but you probably want your arms slot for Bracers of Armour. Still, I think the Robe of the Archmagi is AC 5 and doesn't stack, and it's better than any other robe anyway, so as long as you don't mind waiting until you can afford it (or kill Daevorn if you're evil, or kill Shandalar for his if you're Neutral, etc) you can free up you hands and thus dump Strength. It all depends, though, I guess.

[Callidus Thorn]

Just created my Cleric/Mage, thanks for all the help.