22 réponses à ce sujet

[BigNorm]

i dunno if Shale or Alistair would be the better tank. I enjoy Shale's ingame conversations, lol. but the lack of customization sucks. and if alistair proves to be better, should i dump all his points into constitution since i want him to tank? thanks...

[Doriath]

Alistair can tank pretty well with 20 constitution and the lifegiver ring if you can afford it.  What you want to dump points into with Alistair is actually dexterity.  The less chance the enemy has to hit him, the more time he's attracting enemies that aren't doing anything to him or the party.  Slap on massive armor and he's good to go.  Even against those who will hit him, he's shrugging off a lot.

High dexterity on your tank also means your healer has less pressure to constantly heal the tank, so they can focus more on casting offensive or control powers in most encounters that don't have higher ranked enemies.  Shale can certainly tank, I just prefer Alistair.

Modifié par chrisnabal, 22 janvier 2011 - 06:59 .

[cJohnOne]

I think both work well. Shale's area stuns work well with a rogue with coup de grace though. I prefer the character of Alistair too.

[ussnorway]

Shale has the edge when fighting a dragon (immune to grab) but they both can tank.

[SniperWolfMandy]

I use Shale for dragons.... like ussnorway said but I prefer to use Alistair when I myself are not the tank.

[SniperWolfMandy]

also Shale has fire resistance when using the right crystal

[Zombie Chow]

I preferred Alistair in the early phases, then I switch to Shale in the later phases. Here's where Shale shines:



- as said before, she can't get grabbed (by Dragons, Broodmothers, the many Ogres in late-game)

- with Clear/Flawless Natural Crystals, her huge set bonus to HP/armour makes her an ideal tank

- combines Threaten + Taunt with Rock Mastery + Bellow, making her better at aggro

- she has a few more abilities, like hurling large rocks, that give her a slight edge over Alistair

- however, in her tank mode, she does very very little damage, plus she can't use Runes at all



Putting this together, IMHO Shale's slightly better when the rest of your other party members are Mages or Rogues, who really need someone to keep the damage off of them. She won't provide much DPS, sadly.

[Faelix_Majere]

chrisnabal wrote...

Alistair can tank pretty well with 20 constitution and the lifegiver ring if you can afford it.  What you want to dump points into with Alistair is actually dexterity.  The less chance the enemy has to hit him, the more time he's attracting enemies that aren't doing anything to him or the party.  Slap on massive armor and he's good to go.  Even against those who will hit him, he's shrugging off a lot.

High dexterity on your tank also means your healer has less pressure to constantly heal the tank, so they can focus more on casting offensive or control powers in most encounters that don't have higher ranked enemies.  Shale can certainly tank, I just prefer Alistair.

This is good advice, you want to make your tank hard, and that means massive armor (strength 42), and then raise defense with Dexterity. If you pump con instead he will take more damage, and it will seem like your healing doesn't do much, as he has a much bigger hitpoint pool. So much more hitpoints you need to replace when you start to think about healing him.

So con at 20-25 + lifegiver ring from Ozammar, he needs to be able to take some damage and not go down before you can hit pause. But else it's about making him harder.

It is also a good idea to spend gold on your tank, the ring mentioned here is pretty important. I know it can be tempting to buy that cool dagger or that ownage staff for your main character. But you will have it much easier with a strong tank. I usually give Alistair the keys to the city for example, as he has 3 stats that all are very good to raise (strength, dex and con of course).

And I figure out how much strength I need to give him to reach 42 after I have given him this stuff.

[Joy Divison]

The only problem w/ the "Shale can't be grabbed" argument is that if you play a melee character, guess who the High Dragon is going to chomp on...

[ussnorway]

The Dragon will always try to grab the one that is in front of her... stand to the side.

[BroBear Berbil]

Prefer Alistair; or any sword and board tank for that matter. Get the minimum required Dex (26) then pump STR. There's so much dodge gear in the game that you really don't need to put points into Dex for evasion.

[SuicidalBaby]

Alistair can't be knocked down, Shale gets punted around by anything that has the ability.



Sorry, I think I misread that, you're putting points into con? lol

[Parrk]

The benefit of having shale in your camp is that she requires no prep to be ready for the high dragon fight, which is probably the single fight in the game where having a tank is beneficial. Even that fight is easier with 2 melee dps/two mages.



If you make Liliana a dex/dagger rogue, then she can tank nearly anything in the game.



Mages have enough tools at their disposal that when you run with two of them (and have redundancies in those protective capabilities whose cooldowns are supposed to prevent them from being game-breaking), then the DW war and the dagger rogue will pretty much fight for aggro most of the time.



The dw war does more damage, but the rogue pulls ahead when backstabbing, so the dragon switches regularly.



When you have 2 resurrections at your disposal, a tank jsut slows things down.

[Amazon Queen]

I prefer Shale. Her area effect abilities give her a real edge over Alistair at least until he completes the Champion line IMO. Fighting dragons has been mentioned. Fighting werewolves is another area she shines.



But both work fine so often I just take whoever serves the story better at that point so Alistair for Redcliffe, RtO, Soldiers Peak and the Landsmeet, Shale for Orzhammer and the Deep Roads.

[SuicidalBaby]

Parrk wrote...

The benefit of having shale in your camp is that she requires no prep to be ready for the high dragon fight, which is probably the single fight in the game where having a tank is beneficial. Even that fight is easier with 2 melee dps/two mages.

If you make Liliana a dex/dagger rogue, then she can tank nearly anything in the game.

Mages have enough tools at their disposal that when you run with two of them (and have redundancies in those protective capabilities whose cooldowns are supposed to prevent them from being game-breaking), then the DW war and the dagger rogue will pretty much fight for aggro most of the time.

The dw war does more damage, but the rogue pulls ahead when backstabbing, so the dragon switches regularly.

When you have 2 resurrections at your disposal, a tank jsut slows things down.

Actually you can kind of trick the dragon if hes only on 1 target, just back your tank up about 5-8 feet from him and the dragon will start breathing and casting fireball, just taunt when its not on cd and you can sit there and tank from range all day till you feel its time to deal the death blow.  The fight is insanely easy once you have already done it, like most of the other encounters.  (I assume were talking nightmare.)

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 16 février 2011 - 11:48 .

[Sandy2009]

I just used the Bear that Liliana summons as tank for High Dragon. Just park him close to dragon and let dragon waste fire balls on bear. The mages just keep healing the bear. Entire party just used ranged attack. Same for flemeth. It is so easy to hunt dragons this way. The funny part is bear was still alive with some health left after the dragons died in frustration. We all gave him a bear hug.

[Wedge Antilles]

Alistair who? I've played DOA for a while and in my opinion there is no character so equally capable of doing so many different things( DPS, AOE, tank, etc) as Shale. With the right fitting crystals she can handle anything. Just make sure to push up her CON to 38 to fit the brilliant crystals and enjoy the ride! The dialogue is witty, fun, and just LOL great. Alistair has sat at camp since getting Shale.

[Choom]

Shale has several weaknesses that should not be overlooked.

While the crystals can provide Shale with some resistance to spells, nothing beats Wade's armor against fire coupled with the Corruption helm against Spirit (70% and 75% resistances respectively).

Alistair is a Templar, meaning he has some anti-magic abilities, namely a passive that drains mana on every melee swing, an active that cleanses the area of all magic effects such as Anti-Magic shields, glyphs, Lifewards, etc., a strong mental resistance, and a ranged AoE that can be used to generate threat, especially when used on enemy Mages. Make him a Champion and you also gain an AoE knock back effect from Rally, ideal to position enemies in a circle around Alistair.

Being a Warrior, Alistair can also render himself immune against flanked attacks, meaning that the position from which enemies attack doesn't really matter, as well as render himself immune against knock backs, meaning he doesn't have to take the pounding and his avoidance stays enabled all the time in combat thus reducing the mana drain on healers.

EDIT: You should concentrate entirely on Dexterity, which gives you avoidance and increases your chance to hit.  The only times when you should ever look any other way are when you upgrade Strength for specific sword and board talents, massive armor sets, or Cunning for Combat Tactics.

Modifié par Choom, 26 février 2011 - 12:38 .

[SuicidalBaby]

I'm going to enjoy this...

Choom wrote...

Shale has several weaknesses that should not be overlooked.

While the crystals can provide Shale with some resistance to spells, nothing beats Wade's armor against fire coupled with the Corruption helm against Spirit (70% and 75% resistances respectively).

Corruption is only availible for the last 3 zones in gameplay accessible by either Shale or Alistar, making it a minor boost in overall gameplay.  Near null if you think about how strong a late game Shale or Alistar is.  So it's not really worth mentioning at all.  Shale's cyrstals give half the effect of the helm for more than half of the game and near all the % as the armor for most of the game. 

Alistair is a Templar, meaning he has some anti-magic abilities, namely a passive that drains mana on every melee swing, an active that cleanses the area of all magic effects such as Anti-Magic shields, glyphs, Lifewards, etc., a strong mental resistance, and a ranged AoE that can be used to generate threat, especially when used on enemy Mages. Make him a Champion and you also gain an AoE knock back effect from Rally, ideal to position enemies in a circle around Alistair.

Shale throws rocks.  Big ones.  No need to move into silly glyphs to make bloody paste.  Switch to rock mastery for Earth Grasp AoE you dont move anymore while my team kills you.  Stoneheart>Bellow>Pulverizing Blows>Earthquake>Rockmastery> Hurl Bolder> Earth grasph.  You want control?  You got it.  (btw its best to move Alistar so a large group of enemies is on the same side for an upgraded Warcry so your mages can make use of a clump of enemies on thier backsides. Fireball, cone of cold, glyph combo bomb, what have you.)

Being a Warrior, Alistair can also render himself immune against flanked attacks, meaning that the position from which enemies attack doesn't really matter, as well as render himself immune against knock backs, meaning he doesn't have to take the pounding and his avoidance stays enabled all the time in combat thus reducing the mana drain on healers.

  see Rock Mastery, Earth Grasp.  I will give you the knockdown point, being as Shale cant be grabbed I'll call it even.

EDIT: You should concentrate entirely on Dexterity, which gives you avoidance and increases your chance to hit.  The only times when you should ever look any other way are when you upgrade Strength for specific sword and board talents, massive armor sets, or Cunning for Combat Tactics.

Wrong, so wrong you should slap yourself.  Dex to 26 for top ability requirement, then max strength.  When Alister is 2 shotting Genlocks and 3 shotty Hurlocks on Nightmare you'll understand a dead enemy can't do damage.  There is enough gear to make Alistar 100% dodge and 100% Magic immune while giving him the Strength to resist boss level attacks.  Dex builds are not wise unless you're doing a dagger dps build with flaming weapons, but you didn't speicfy so I'm assuming you still use a larger weapon with your dex build which makes me cringe a little.

While a flavor choice, I would suggest Reaver over Champion.  Smite gives you the AoE knock down already WITH damage and can be targeted anywhere in view without wasting points to get it.  Reaver will give you a great AoE damage and increased melee damage along with a fear that improves one of his key abilities, taunt. The self heal is just bonus and definatly better than upgrading Rally.

I did enjoy that.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 26 février 2011 - 01:35 .

[Choom]

Corruption is only availible for the last 3 zones in gameplay accessible by either Shale or Alistar, making it a minor boost in overall gameplay.  Near null if you think about how strong a late game Shale or Alistar is.  So it's not really worth mentioning at all.  Shale's cyrstals give half the effect of the helm for more than half of the game and near all the % as the armor for most of the game.

I've mentioned them as examples of versatility in gear that a proper Warrior has but Shale lacks.

Shale throws rocks.  Big ones.

You have to disable the tanking stance for that though, and then wait for the cooldown to expire before re-enabling it.  Holy Smite, in the other hand, requires no stance dancing and thus no loss of threat or cooldown waste.  Another advantage is that without having to use as many abilities, Warriors are easier on Combat Tactics slots as well as more responsive.

No need to move into silly glyphs to make bloody paste.  Switch to rock mastery for Earth Grasp AoE you dont move anymore while my team kills you.

Ranged fights are a bad place to employ a melee tank.  That's what you have Mages and Rogues in the party for.  A Rogue can tank rangers better than a Warrior (I use Leliana for my ranger tanking needs since she has a lot of avoidance with high Dexterity), and Mages provide better crowd control, so if you are sacrificing melee threat control or survivability for the ability to control threat at range with Shale you are definitely doing it wrong.

Stoneheart>Bellow>Pulverizing Blows>Earthquake>Rockmastery> Hurl Bolder> Earth grasph.  You want control?  You got it.

Disregarding the huge amount of cooldowns that you've just wasted leaving you locked out of the tanking stance, there's also the huge stamina requirement to power all that up.

I will give you the knockdown point, being as Shale cant be grabbed I'll call it even.

Very few mobs grab you compared to those that can knock you down.  For the mobs that grab there's always Lifeward (when that's even needed) or Shield Bash if you have another Warrior in the party.  As far as I can remember there are 4 bosses capable of grabbing you in the game, whereas in the other hand there are loads of mobs with knockback effects, and they come often in swarms to make a quick snack out of unprotected tanks.

Wrong, so wrong you should slap yourself.  Dex to 26 for top ability requirement, then max strength.  When Alister is 2 shotting Genlocks and 3 shotty Hurlocks on Nightmare you'll understand a dead enemy can't do damage.

That's what he does with 42 base Strength.  You still need Strength to wear Massive Armor, which I mentioned.

There is enough gear to make Alistar 100% dodge and 100% Magic immune while giving him the Strength to resist boss level attacks.  Dex builds are not wise unless you're doing a dagger dps build with flaming weapons, but you didn't speicfy so I'm assuming you still use a larger weapon with your dex build which makes me cringe a little.

Now you've picked my curiousity.  How do you make Alistair immune to magic?  It's also quite interesting how you end up agreeing that Alistair can in fact become immune to all damage (thus making him a better tank) in a thead where you were defending Shale as being the most suited for that role.

EDIT: I'm not quite used to this forum yet (and I hate the HTML editor with a passion).

Modifié par Choom, 26 février 2011 - 02:28 .

[SuicidalBaby]

[quote]Choom wrote...

[quote]Corruption is only availible for the last 3 zones in gameplay accessible by either Shale or Alistar, making it a minor boost in overall gameplay.  Near null if you think about how strong a late game Shale or Alistar is.  So it's not really worth mentioning at all.  Shale's cyrstals give half the effect of the helm for more than half of the game and near all the % as the armor for most of the game.[/quote]
I've mentioned them as examples of versatility in gear that a proper Warrior has but Shale lacks.[/quote]
And I was showing how half of your examples were a waste to mention as well as how much Shale stacks up to both, leaving Shale a little ahead in this department.  As both are balanced in my view, counter weight comes later.
[quote][quote]Shale throws rocks.  Big ones.[/quote]
You have to disable the tanking stance for that though, and then wait for the cooldown to expire before re-enabling it.  Holy Smite, in the other hand, requires no stance dancing and thus no loss of threat or cooldown waste.  Another advantage is that without having to use as many abilities, Warriors are easier on Combat Tactics slots as well as more responsive.[/quote]
I rarely bother to do either with Alister or Shale, the mage on hand can and will have Glyph of Paralysis and or Mana Clash.  I was just being silly.
[quote]
[quote]No need to move into silly glyphs to make bloody paste.  Switch to rock mastery for Earth Grasp AoE you dont move anymore while my team kills you.[/quote]
Ranged fights are a bad place to employ a melee tank.  That's what you have Mages and Rogues in the party for.  A Rogue can tank rangers better than a Warrior (I use Leliana for my ranger tanking needs since she has a lot of avoidance with high Dexterity), and Mages provide better crowd control, so if you are sacrificing melee threat control or survivability for the ability to control threat at range with Shale you are definitely doing it wrong.[/quote]
Now you're getting into specific little niches of combat where certain tactics change, this is obvious and doesn't belong in the conversation were having.  You're nitpicking to gain an advantage where there isn't one.  Shale ignores range, picks up melee, then proceeds to drag them to the ranged and tank the melee while attacking the ranged and or immoblizing the entire bunch.  Unique situations require more than a general combat explaination which is what I gave you.  This should have been understood.
[quote]
[quote]Stoneheart>Bellow>Pulverizing Blows>Earthquake>Rockmastery> Hurl Bolder> Earth grasph.  You want control?  You got it.[/quote]
Disregarding the huge amount of cooldowns that you've just wasted leaving you locked out of the tanking stance, there's also the huge stamina requirement to power all that up.[/quote]
Is everything dead?  Who cares about cooldowns.....   Switching stances wont eat stam, the rest is mix and match per encounter, I rarely throw a bolder unless time allows for the opportunity.  So in the end its start in pulverizing, taunt, earthquake, masterty, grasp.  I was just giving examples of the dynamic abilities Shale commands.
[quote]
[quote]I will give you the knockdown point, being as Shale cant be grabbed I'll call it even.[/quote]
Very few mobs grab you compared to those that can knock you down.  For the mobs that grab there's always Lifeward (when that's even needed) or Shield Bash if you have another Warrior in the party.  As far as I can remember there are 4 bosses capable of grabbing you in the game, whereas in the other hand there are loads of mobs with knockback effects, and they come often in swarms to make a quick snack out of unprotected tanks.
[/quote]
True.  Although any number of ogres can grab you, thats a little more than 4.
[quote]
[quote]Wrong, so wrong you should slap yourself.  Dex to 26 for top ability requirement, then max strength.  When Alister is 2 shotting Genlocks and 3 shotty Hurlocks on Nightmare you'll understand a dead enemy can't do damage.[/quote]That's what he does with 42 base Strength.  You still need Strength to wear Massive Armor, which I mentioned.
[quote]There is enough gear to make Alistar 100% dodge and 100% Magic immune while giving him the Strength to resist boss level attacks.  Dex builds are not wise unless you're doing a dagger dps build with flaming weapons, but you didn't speicfy so I'm assuming you still use a larger weapon with your dex build which makes me cringe a little.[/quote]Now you've picked my curiousity.  How do you make Alistair immune to magic?  It's also quite interesting how you end up agreeing that Alistair can in fact become immune to all damage (thus making him a better tank) in a thead where you were defending Shale as being the most suited for that role.
EDIT: I'm not quite used to this forum yet (and I hate the HTML editor with a passion).[/quote]

I consider these the same subject.  Alister's best gear isn't a set, it's a combination of gear.  Knight Commander's being the main piece.  The rest has been discussed at length and I don't find myself with the patience to type out the list.  It's on these forums in the build section somewhere, probably from Darkness.  ( a worthy contributer )

I was if anything putting the 2 on the same level with simple flavor differences if anything.  Combat styles may differ but the result is the same when played correctly.  One dead Archdeamon.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 26 février 2011 - 03:31 .

[ColaQueen]

Why not use different characters in different situations? Why always stick with the same party build? Build up each character that way you always have more than one tank to chose from depending on the area you are in, the rp you are doing, or the type of enemies you are facing.

[SuicidalBaby]

Because that is too fair minded for gamers. That and you waste experience gained when you swap out while your PC goes up a level so your tanks are constantly 2 levels behind.