250 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

RangerTypeII wrote...

I love  the debatehere  and would love to see everybody's age I am willing to bet the older players like the text and are resistant to the changes and the younger players like the new trend.  I'm 36 and the BG line is the only game I play. (I did play me with the DAO delays)     The chang e will be fun on the first play threw but after that is will  a drag  and drasticly reduce the fun.      

I'm 46 and I have no problem with VO. It doesn't particularly improve my experience, but doesn't hurt it either.

[duckphone07]

Although I enjoy both voiced and silent protagonists in games, I like that Dragon Age 2 is going the voiced route. The style of Bioware games benefits from having a voice while the style of Elder Scrolls games benefit without one. The Elder Scrolls is very sandboxy and bases a lot around imagination. I like that. But I also like the reactivity(As In Exile pointed out) of the voiced PC. As log as the voice actor does their job well, I will enjoy the voiced PC and the dialogue wheel.

EDIT:

RangerTypeII wrote...

I love  the debatehere  and would
love to see everybody's age I am willing to bet the older players like
the text and are resistant to the changes and the younger players like
the new trend.  I'm 36 and the BG line is the only game I play. (I did
play me with the DAO delays)     The chang e will be fun on the first
play threw but after that is will  a drag  and drasticly reduce
the fun.      

I am 20.  I am male.  I enjoy both as I said above, but I believe Bioware games benefit more when voiced.

Modifié par duckphone07, 23 janvier 2011 - 09:38 .

[Stefanocrpg_rev91]

I am happy for the voiced pc (or at least I'm not unhappy about it), but I don't like the dialogue wheel, I still prefer the classic system with the complete sentences, instead of the short and unclear ones.

[_Aine_]

RangerTypeII wrote...

I love  the debatehere  and would love to see everybody's age I am willing to bet the older players like the text and are resistant to the changes and the younger players like the new trend.  I'm 36 and the BG line is the only game I play. (I did play me with the DAO delays)     The chang e will be fun on the first play threw but after that is will  a drag  and drasticly reduce the fun.      

I am not so sure that it is age related. Probably more "genre" or maybe style related.  After all, you can play a game like Assassin's Creed, where you are fixed gender, spoken protagonist and basically you can colour and upgrade your armor a bit, but you *are* Ezio.  If the series started this way, some people will naturally expect the story to progress, the gameplay to improve, the graphics to maybe even elevate as technology does but the main character approach to remain the same.  

Part of what I see as resistance to the "new" way is actually opinion on the marketing/advertising and also is information based ( or lack thereof) which, if people would just relax, will keep coming out. lol  Some of it is based on being comfortable with the old ways, some of it has to do with the new ways *seeming* to be in contrast with the old style. Some people don't like one (or two) fixed characters even if you can alter the world's interactions with them through your actions *when they are used to, in the same series creating multiple different ones*  I think what people are afraid of, is that it will FEEL different when they really wanted to re-experience that same "WOW - this is a GREAT game" that they felt with DA:O.  

Which, if we didn't judge it before we play it, we may just end up saying again.  

Modifié par shantisands, 23 janvier 2011 - 09:57 .

[General9999]

there will be extremely lot lot less dialogue because of the stupid budget limit or memory budget or whatever so it will not be as long as dragon age origins

[Nighteye2]

RangerTypeII wrote...
I love  the debatehere  and would love to see everybody's age I am willing to bet the older players like the text and are resistant to the changes and the younger players like the new trend.  I'm 36 and the BG line is the only game I play. (I did play me with the DAO delays)     The chang e will be fun on the first play threw but after that is will  a drag  and drasticly reduce the fun.      

29 and I don't care about the VO, as long as having VO doesn't reduce the number of dialogue choices or the game lenght. I do, however, despise the paraphrase system which takes away my control over my own player character.

[_Somebody]

Nighteye2 wrote...

RangerTypeII wrote...
I love  the debatehere  and would love to see everybody's age I am willing to bet the older players like the text and are resistant to the changes and the younger players like the new trend.  I'm 36 and the BG line is the only game I play. (I did play me with the DAO delays)     The chang e will be fun on the first play threw but after that is will  a drag  and drasticly reduce the fun.      

29 and I don't care about the VO, as long as having VO doesn't reduce the number of dialogue choices or the game lenght. I do, however, despise the paraphrase system which takes away my control over my own player character.

This exactly. 20, myself.

Modifié par Somebody, 23 janvier 2011 - 10:17 .

[Heimdall]

*Raises hand*



I Like It!

[AlanC9]

Just for clarification, I prefer VO with paraphrases to VO without paraphrases.

[In Exile]

RangerTypeII wrote...

I love  the debatehere  and would love to see everybody's age I am willing to bet the older players like the text and are resistant to the changes and the younger players like the new trend.  I'm 36 and the BG line is the only game I play. (I did play me with the DAO delays)     The chang e will be fun on the first play threw but after that is will  a drag  and drasticly reduce the fun.      

I'm 21 1/2.

I happen to think my position is rather well known at this point.

Modifié par In Exile, 23 janvier 2011 - 11:44 .

[TJPags]

RangerTypeII wrote...

I love  the debatehere  and would love to see everybody's age I am willing to bet the older players like the text and are resistant to the changes and the younger players like the new trend.  I'm 36 and the BG line is the only game I play. (I did play me with the DAO delays)     The chang e will be fun on the first play threw but after that is will  a drag  and drasticly reduce the fun.      

I'm 41, and can take or leave the voiced PC.  Doesn't matter to me either way.  Doesn't make the game better or worse.

What does matter is whether I like the voice that my PC has.  If I don't, that's a problem.  If I do, it's a good thing.

What I really do not like is the idea that I may not know what my PC will say, due to the paraphrasing.  That would be a problem whether there was a voiced PC or not, though I've not heard of a game using paraphrasing and a silent PC.

[Addai]

RangerTypeII wrote...

I love  the debatehere  and would love to see everybody's age I am willing to bet the older players like the text and are resistant to the changes and the younger players like the new trend.  I'm 36 and the BG line is the only game I play. (I did play me with the DAO delays)     The chang e will be fun on the first play threw but after that is will  a drag  and drasticly reduce the fun.      

I'm 38 but fairly new to toon games, coming to them via text RPG/ MUSH and then a husband who's 43 and grew up on D & D and the old school RPGs.  So I guess we fit the mold of the old farts who like the older style best.

I also listen almost exclusively to 80s pop and hair metal.  You young whippersnappers have no idea about music.

[TJPags]

Addai67 wrote...

I also listen almost exclusively to 80s pop and hair metal.  You young whippersnappers have no idea about music.

+10. 

Modifié par TJPags, 24 janvier 2011 - 12:26 .

[ItsFreakinJesus]

I only had a problem with the silent protagonist of DA:O because they fooled me into thinking the dialog would be voiced due to the voice selection on the player creation screen.



Other than that, I can go either way. Though having a voiced protagonist aids in making the game more cinematic. The types of scenes you can do are limited without voiced dialog.

[firl1979]

Eh yeah im on of those who loves RPG's period. Real first RPG played was Dragon Warrior and first final fantasy. I like a voiced character in some RPG's and in some i like a silent one. It just depends on the game. Personally loved the silent warden in DAO. But also liked the voiced Shep's in Mass Effect. I do tend to become more in touch with a silent character. As in those characters i feel like i can play myself in the role add my own voice in my head to the character. But thats just me though.



But i really dont like an paraphrased wheel. As hate not knowing what my character will say. There is many times in ME and ME2 and i just wanna facepalm caue what the hell i picked was not in any way close to what i was thinking it would say. And that totally bugs the ****** out of me. But again thats my prefernce.

[Urazz]

duckphone07 wrote...

Although I enjoy both voiced and silent protagonists in games, I like that Dragon Age 2 is going the voiced route. The style of Bioware games benefits from having a voice while the style of Elder Scrolls games benefit without one. The Elder Scrolls is very sandboxy and bases a lot around imagination. I like that. But I also like the reactivity(As In Exile pointed out) of the voiced PC. As log as the voice actor does their job well, I will enjoy the voiced PC and the dialogue wheel.

EDIT:

RangerTypeII wrote...

I love  the debatehere  and would
love to see everybody's age I am willing to bet the older players like
the text and are resistant to the changes and the younger players like
the new trend.  I'm 36 and the BG line is the only game I play. (I did
play me with the DAO delays)     The chang e will be fun on the first
play threw but after that is will  a drag  and drasticly reduce
the fun.      

I am 20.  I am male.  I enjoy both as I said above, but I believe Bioware games benefit more when voiced.

Exactly what I feel.  Bioware games nowadays tend to have their games be a more cinematic experience on top of being a game.  It also makes more sense to go this route as the PC in their games interacts with other characters alot more than in other games like Elder Scrolls.

[TheMadCat]

RangerTypeII wrote...

I love  the debatehere  and would love to see everybody's age I am willing to bet the older players like the text and are resistant to the changes and the younger players like the new trend.  I'm 36 and the BG line is the only game I play. (I did play me with the DAO delays)     The chang e will be fun on the first play threw but after that is will  a drag  and drasticly reduce the fun.      

I'm 25, and it depends on what the game is trying to do for me to determine whether or not a VO is the best move or not. Games which give you a very specific character (Michel Thornton from Alpha Protocol, Gearalt from The Witcher) I think it helps bring that specific character to life. Games that don't give you a specific character, that give you the freedom to build your character visually I think it's ultimately a detriment (Shepard in Mass Effect). The point of giving the player visual customization is creating their own unique character for that particular journey, laying down a vocal restriction can impede on that, just how much varies from user to user.

[Gethrian]

Only thing I don't like about the wheel is that I don't know what I'm really going to say. Otherwise I don't have complaines.

[Naitaka]

In Exile wrote...

Naitaka wrote...
Yes but when you recognize something about a
failure of design, it's metagame knowledge that your PC should not be
able to recognize as such. I try to treat each of my playthrough as
actively writting a story in my PC's perspective in real time. True,
I will always have metagame knowledge out of character, but instead of
accepting them and have my PC think "Maker's Breath! This has to be some
cosmic mistake that I have no way of explaining" I just make up
something more interesting so such glaring mistake wouldn't be apparent
to the PC.

It just seem more fun this way than being annoyed by
design flaws you have no way of correcting yourself. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

But the problem with that is that if there was such a design flaw, the coherent way of resolving it might not be allowed by the game.

That's a major issue. With things like the darkspawn taint (especially with the mabari basically ingesting darkspawn blood by the pound) any actual mechanic ought to be encompassed by the story. After all, if there was any non-Grey Warden way of avoiding the taint, that would make the Wardens themselves obsolute (as far as you know until the endgame).

Funny enough, there is in fact a kind of potion that protects against the darkspawn taint if you've read The Calling. Only problem is that it involves Darkspawn magic which I'm sure no mage would want to be caught doing, at least those under the watchful eyes of the Templars. On the other hand, I'm sure that Flemeth wouldn't give give a rat's arse about what the Templars think, and it's not inconceivable that she could gain access to such power, so it's actually not all that far-fetched to think Morrigan to be able to protect the party from the Darkspawn taint. Anyway, it's part of the fun to try to come up with something that fit within the setting and can explain away design flaws.

[Chaos2Black]

Chris Avellone, known as YMCA to his friends, saw that for the fact and revolutionized the already revolutionary dialogue wheel further by adding Quicktime events, resulting in a real time QTE dialogue wheel, which offers a true, gritty, dark and mature cinematic next-gen streamlined experience. Bioware must follow suit.

Additional improvements are possible, and implementing them will clutch Bioware the top spot of the Next-gen gaming world. Hereby I propose The new and improved Spinning QTE Dialogue Wheel system.

Just like static dialogue wheel, the Spinning QTE Dialogue Wheel features dialogue stances (ideally represented by icons instead of words - who wants to be bothered by reading?). However, the stances are not statically distributed along the parameter of the wheel - the wheel spins and the choices rotate, requiring quick reflexes from the player. In the background there are timers ticking. Ideally the timers should be represented by clock icons ticking above the conversation partners' heads. When there are more conversation partners, there are more timers, and you have to be extra quick to choose suave, proffesional or collar grabbing response, lest it be chosen for you, adding to the urgency and grittines of real world dialogues. And all that while the wheel is spinning.

In the name of all that is streamlined, next-gen, cinematic, dark, gritty, mature and immersive, Bioware should implement the Spinning QTE before Todd Howards does it, because if anybody had an idea involving the Dialogue wheel, chances are that Todd Howard had it first.

Out with the old, in with the new.

I suppose this Entry is sarcastic anyway (YMCA and all) The Chris Avellone bit is plainly wrong. Brian Mitsoda did design the dialouge system on Alpha Protocol. The only big thing that was left from him.

[vallore]

In Exile wrote...

vallore wrote...
There are two problems, you are only considering one.

With the fully written line, some of us experience doubts about intent, as they are not aware of what tone the character will be using, but not about the content of what is actually said.

What you are ignoring is that without knowing the intent, it is impossible to know what is being said.

To give you an example:

"Great idea! :lol:"

"Great idea! <_<"

Are not the same thing at all. The tone changes completely based on the earnest/sarcastic intention behind it. So how am I to determine what the actual content is, without knowing that intention and tone?

With a paraphrase we can have doubts about intent AND content. The obvious conclusion is that, as a tool, it is less clear than the full text. 

Except that this begs the question, just like your previous point begs the question. In the first case, we still lack information about content because the literal content of the line, and the actual content of what is being said are not the same thing.

In this case, with the paraphrase, we do not have the literal content of the line, but we are just as out to lunch with the actual content of what is being said.

I will agree with you that with the paraphrase we lack for the literal content. But I will disagree with you that this provides any value to the player without knowing the tone.

Not ignoring, it just wasn’t my point. Since I wasn’t clear enough, allow me to clarify; what I was trying to say was that there are two different types of problems:

The ones caused by uncertainty of intent; that affect both full-phrases and paraphrases. And those caused by lack of content, that affect only paraphrases.

However, the issue with paraphrases is NOT one of lack of literal content, is one of actual content. Paraphrases can only convey limited amounts of information, and because of it, it is easy to lose relevant information that are present in the more complex phrases but not in the paraphrase, say, like motive.

Mind you, emotion/intent icons will probably greatly clarify intent, but probably can’t do anything to improve content clarity. 

Actually, Gaider already mentioned that by allowing the paraphrase to separate the attempt to show tone/intention from the attempt to show the content, they are able to have the paraphrase more closely resemble the content without losing information about the tone.

So at least from where the developers are standing, the intent icons do precisely this.

It is interesting to know that the devs also think the paraphrase needs improvemnt, for sure.

It still looks like something difficult to do; I hope they can do it.

As I see it, the problem between full text/paraphrase is not between a good system and a bad one, but rather between two flawed choices:

Full text, used with a voiced character, would result in many players feeling it to be redundant, boring.

Likewise, a paraphrase system is flawed as it will produce clarity issues forother players, resulting in a lessened experience of the game for them. 

If we are talking about having included VO no matter what and are ignoring anything except the UI, then it always comes down to a debate on whether the actual literal content of what is being said ever matters to RP.


Yes, for some people the paraphrase is problematic because it removes the literal content which matters so much for them. But that is an idiosyncratic issue, not a design issue with the paraphrase. It boils down to "some people don't like it" versus "endemic problem x" is there.

I completely disagree. Again, I repeat:

As a rule, the paraphrase cannot convey all the information within a complex phrase.

Example:

Paraphrase:
“we cannot do this,” conveys refusal of an action.

Phrase: “We can’t do that Bill! It is wrong! Have you thought of the consequences for the rest of the group?” It further conveys motive, (the action is morally unacceptable for the character), emotional distress, (meaning that it matters a lot for the character), and condemnation, (it is implied that the character considers Bill to either be irresponsible or immoral to propose such an act, and is willing to show it). All this extra information may or may not be in accordance with the way the player sees his character; (what if the character was supposed to be amoral and self–centered and the player had other reasons to refuse the
proposed action?) But the player cannot know it before the choice is made.

I believe a mixed system would result better, by allowing the player to decide what is better for himself and his playing style, at any given moment.

What would a mixed system be? Saying "show the full line as a toggle" is basically a useless position, because it addresses none of the problems of implementation.

I fail to see your problem here. In a wheel we have clickable options and soon icons, do we not? Why can’t it have clickable icons that will show the full-phrase, or part of it, when clicked? I assume this is not unfeasible. And that is only one example. As I pointed out elsewhere, many options could be done including some quite radical, as introducing a “return” option on the wheel that allows us to go back to the previous dialog tree, if we find the paraphrase led us astray, (effectively making the wheel in a voiced
“laundry list” as it would allow us to choose what option feels better by listening to it instead of reading the full text).

Modifié par vallore, 24 janvier 2011 - 10:58 .

[Nighteye2]

firl1979 wrote...
Eh yeah im on of those who loves RPG's period. Real first RPG played was Dragon Warrior and first final fantasy. I like a voiced character in some RPG's and in some i like a silent one. It just depends on the game. Personally loved the silent warden in DAO. But also liked the voiced Shep's in Mass Effect. I do tend to become more in touch with a silent character. As in those characters i feel like i can play myself in the role add my own voice in my head to the character. But thats just me though.

But i really dont like an paraphrased wheel. As hate not knowing what my character will say. There is many times in ME and ME2 and i just wanna facepalm caue what the hell i picked was not in any way close to what i was thinking it would say. And that totally bugs the ****** out of me. But again thats my prefernce.

It's not just you. There are many players with the same prefence - although I don't know how many exactly. But several how already posted in this thread and other threads about the same topic (or very similar).

[Elsariel]

RangerTypeII wrote...
What does matter is whether I like the voice that my PC has.  If I don't, that's a problem.  If I do, it's a good thing.

This.  I'm excited to see how it's done but I don't know what the voice for FemHawke will sound like and I'm fearing that her voice won't sound anything like how I created my character to be.  If I made my Hawke to look young and innocent but her voice is that of an experienced battlemaiden (or vice versa) then I will have a problem with it.  

[HTTP 404]

I am happy with it...or maybe Im just becoming more of a casual gamer as I get older.