250 réponses à ce sujet

[SnakeStrike8]

I approve of the voiced protagonist, but not necessarily the dialogue wheel. Picking the 'Shut up' option should reasonably lead to a line wherein Hawke says something like, 'Enough out of you!'. Not 'I'm in charge; you do what I say!'. An appropriate paraphrase for the latter line might have been 'I give the orders' or 'Do what I say'. Not 'Shut up'.

I suppose the nature of paraphrasing into full sentences lends itself towards some confusion, but I'll hold onto hope that Bioware eventually decides to implement full sentences at some point along with PC voiceover.

Right now, I can't help but pigeonhole myself into 'Top option: Good, middle option: Neutral, Bottom option: Evil'. This is at odds with DA 2's lack of a morality meter, but such is what the dialogue wheel, and the paraphrasing that goes with it, tends to cause in me.

[Jazharah]

shinobi602 wrote...

TMZuk wrote...
Apparantly there's a large crowd of players who likes to be rail-roaded and guided through a game, where they watch someone speak and act, rather than controlling a character themselves.

You still control your character. You were "guided" on what to say in Origins also, you just read sentences and picked them, as opposed to hearing them being spoke.
I didn't even feel like my character was part of the game or was even participating. He just stood there with blank eyes. Auditory senses play a big part in making a character come alive.

This.
Totally this.
Well said.

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote...

I don't necessarily mind the voiced PC- provided you have just as many RP options in how to build your character and it retains a sense of player agency.

And I've yet to play a game with a voiced PC that can really do that. And thats the thing- I'm more interested in hearing the NPCs reactions and have the world react to my PC than having to sit through some cutscene where the PC regurgitates back the info I should have just selected.

See, I agree with you here. The problem, though, is what it means to have NPCs react. I'm going to illustrate by addresing a game that I happen to think fails entirely at customizing and giving life to a PC - New Vegas.

Having just finished New Vegas, thats a damn breath of fresh air in terms of choices and how to build a PC. Speech checks all over the place, tons of non-combat skills for the PC and tons of ways to complete quests using different skills. With the emphasis on "cinematic" dialogue and the voiced PC, I just don't think that really allows for the necessary zots to be allocated to New Vegas style robust RP mechanics and choice. Or at least I haven't seen it a game as of yet.

In terms of the skill options, New Vegas blows any Bioware game out of the water. Obsidian is just better at constructing an RP framework for dialogue, and even in creating variable reactive character structure. I think Alpha Protocol, because of its branching and reactive structure, was far more reactive than what we typically see in RPGs.

But New Vegas has dramatic problems - first, characters are for the most part non-recurring and have bit parts. They are people who give you quests, but they're anchored to a particular place and everything is largely self-contained. Your interactions are always one-on-one. While conversations in Dragon Age between the characters were usually 1:1, any major moment had a gathering.

Just look at what happens when you rescue Anora - it's a bit of a back-and-forth between the Warden, Eamon and Anora herself. Mass Effect takes this approach a fair bit as well. The conversations are richer because they involve a lot of different people.

More than that, New Vegas completely disconnects you from the world. Yes, the Courrier is technically anyone - but that's the problem. You start the game without ties to anything, and without any faction to really recognize anything about you. Even as you build up your factions score, you don't have any reasonable embrance into a particular faction or organization, save for either the NCR or Legion to some extent.

I don't think you can have an engaging RP experience without a lot of defining characteristics both about the PC and with the dialogue. You need options about you, and you need to be able to talk to characters about who you are and have them react to that. You need to be able to build and have NPCs react to relationships, like friendships and even romances.

New Vegas is missing this reactive human dimension. And once you start to heavily restrict the protagonist to maket his kind of reactivity possible, then you wind up losing this effective trade-off between VO and non-VO in terms of options.

And once you've lost the trade-off in terms of options, there really is no advantage to VO beyond the subjective debate about "owning" the character based on the subjective experience of a particular VO.

[AlanC9]

TMZuk wrote...

Furthermore, we are already talking about "MaleHawke", just as we did talk about "MaleShep", rather than "My character", which should make it blatantly obvious how restrictive a fixed character is.

When people talk about DAO, they typically say "my Warden." I don't see a big difference.

[Boss Fog]

I approve of the new dialogue system.  I don't really understand people's quips with the dialogue wheel; to me it's the exact same thing as it was in Origins except it's in the shape of a wheel instead of a numerical list.  What good is a system of knowing exactly what your character says if you don't get to hear them say it?  For me, it comletely breaks immersion and makes my PC the most uninteresting character in the game.  NPCs will react the same way as if you're dialogue came from a dialogue wheel rather than a list of responses and your choices will still be the same no matter how you phrase them. 

[Addai]

HyperLimited wrote...

I don't care for it too much. My character will sound the same on every playthrough.

Yeah, this really bothers me.  I can replay my same ME character, but I can't make a new Shepard- just too weird.  And watching YouTube videos is odd, too.  It's my character's voice but she looks different and is doing things I never did.  Feels schizo.  Maybe a year or two down the road I could replay.  I'd make a male Shepard but I hate the VO.

[Beerfish]

I like the voice main character just fine. Dialogue wheel? For the console fine, no need for the pc version if you ask me.

[Addai]

I just can't believe we haven't heard the female PC yet. WTH BioWare.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 janvier 2011 - 12:27 .

[GodWood]

Do not like that it's changed to voiced protaganist.
Absolutely DESPISE the dialogue wheel.

Modifié par GodWood, 23 janvier 2011 - 12:32 .

[Xewaka]

While I'm neutral on the voice issue, I'd rather they went with full line rather than paraphrases.

AlanC9 wrote...

TMZuk wrote...
Furthermore, we are
already talking about "MaleHawke", just as we did talk about "MaleShep",
rather than "My character", which should make it blatantly obvious how
restrictive a fixed character is.

When people talk about DAO, they typically say "my Warden." I don't see a big difference.

The fact that "My warden" implies proterty or vinculation (hence "my") with the character while "male!shep" does not have such pronouns attached marks a notable difference for me.

Modifié par Xewaka, 23 janvier 2011 - 12:30 .

[In Exile]

Beerfish wrote...

I like the voice main character just fine. Dialogue wheel? For the console fine, no need for the pc version if you ask me.

Why do you see it as a platform issue?

Modifié par In Exile, 23 janvier 2011 - 12:33 .

[Beerfish]

Addai67 wrote...

HyperLimited wrote...

I don't care for it too much. My character will sound the same on every playthrough.

Yeah, this really bothers me.  I can replay my same ME character, but I can't make a new Shepard- just too weird.  And watching YouTube videos is odd, too.  It's my character's voice but she looks different and is doing things I never did.  Feels schizo.  Maybe a year or two down the road I could replay.  I'd make a male Shepard but I hate the VO.

Um your voice is the same for every playthrougth if you are not voiced as well.  As in Mute.

Although you could imagine:

"Your a right fine sheila Isabela put a shrimp on the barby for me will ya."

then

"Hey ya hoser Isabela, go fetch me a beer eh?"

then

"Mon Cheri! Isabela!  I shall take you to Orlais, pass me the escargot lover:

then

"Good day Isbella, tut tut!  Would you be so good as to make me some tea and bangers?"

then....

[Beerfish]

In Exile wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

I like the voice main character just fine. Dialogue wheel? For the console fine, no need for the pc version if you ask me.

Why do you see it as a platform issue?

It is not a large issue let me say that.  I play  games on both the xbox and the pc.  It's more of what I am personally used to,  Console because of limited buttons make sense to have a wheel.  PC I am used to the list dialogue like many past BioWare games.  Not a huge deal to me either way though I think you can get more words on screen via the list view than the wheel.

[In Exile]

Xewaka wrote...
When people talk about DAO, they typically say "my Warden." I don't see a big difference.
The fact that "My warden" implies proterty or vinculation (hence "my") with the character while "male!shep" does not have such pronouns attached marks a notable difference for me.

If you look at the ME forum, you will find a fair number of people use "my/your Shepard," whereas you will find people (like me) on the DA:O forum who say "the Warden". 

Modifié par In Exile, 23 janvier 2011 - 12:35 .

[Phoenixblight]

I am all for the voiced protagonist, one of my main problems with DAO was the catatonic PC where you just stared blankly as his family was murdered (human Origin) or as a town is being completely destroyed.



As for the dialogue wheel, I loved it in Mass Effect series why not just bring it over this game, I liked being shocked what Shep did on responses on my playthroughs.

[Arllekin]

I like the idea of a voiced protagonist and the face reactions, but the wheel for me its just a tool, what really matters its the variety of the choices that you have.

[lv12medic]

My view of a voiced character and the dialog wheel is that of a love-hate relationship.

There are parts that I like (more cinematic flow as an example) while there are parts I dis-like (Para-phrase mismatch as an example). Though that example can only really be judged playing through the game itselft (rather than judged ahead of time). It is very dependent on the skill of the writing team to come up with good paraphrases. And now that I have a better understanding of the paraphrase system from this forum, it may not be as bad as say going through ME, or ME2.) Where the paraphrase line isn't so much a summary of what is going to be said, but more of an introduction as to what will be said (going off that Shut up! paraphrase between Hawke and Carver).

Also, if this were The Good, The Bad, and The Ugle, the ugly part would be getting City Elf nightmare flashbacks whenever Male Hawke talks... Though it isn't a huge issue and will likely fade away playing through DA2.

As for the difference between a wheel and a list for dialog, the wheel is extremely intuitive control wise for the console while both is usable for the PC, so the wheel is a good choice to use in both instead of adding just another thing that differs between the two platforms user interfaces.

Modifié par lv12medic, 23 janvier 2011 - 12:37 .

[In Exile]

Beerfish wrote...
It is not a large issue let me say that.  I play  games on both the xbox and the pc.  It's more of what I am personally used to,  Console because of limited buttons make sense to have a wheel.  PC I am used to the list dialogue like many past BioWare games.  Not a huge deal to me either way though I think you can get more words on screen via the list view than the wheel.

There are console games that use a list, and KoTOR and JE were both on the console and used the list.

I can appreciate your familiarity with the different UIs, but the paraphrase & wheel aren't there for the sake of being console friendly.

[Blastback]

I'm nervous about it. for my money, the Warden, like the protagonist in Baldur's Gate, felt like my character, while Shepard felt like my version of someone else's character. Since so far, Mass Effect is the only RPG series I've played with a voiced charater i don't know how well a voiced charater can feel like it is mine. We'll see.

[AlanC9]

Xewaka wrote...

While I'm neutral on the voice issue, I'd rather they went with full line rather than paraphrases.

AlanC9 wrote...

TMZuk wrote...
Furthermore, we are
already talking about "MaleHawke", just as we did talk about "MaleShep",
rather than "My character", which should make it blatantly obvious how
restrictive a fixed character is.

When people talk about DAO, they typically say "my Warden." I don't see a big difference.

The fact that "My warden" implies proterty or vinculation (hence "my") with the character while "male!shep" does not have such pronouns attached marks a notable difference for me.

Actually, I do see people saying "my Shepard" or "My character" when discussing a particular ME character they're playing. When someone says FemShep it's because he's talking about  the VO, which is common to all female Shepards. Someone will say ShepLoo when talking about the default appearance Shepard, And so on.

It's my fault for granting TMZuk's premise.

[shinobi602]

GodWood wrote...

Do not like that it's changed to voiced protaganist.
Absolutely DESPISE the dialogue wheel.

This is expected, coming from you Godwood.

Everything is bad and terrible.

[December Man]

Voiced character - neutral.

Dialogue wheel - die in a fire.

[Addai]

Beerfish wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

HyperLimited wrote...

I don't care for it too much. My character will sound the same on every playthrough.

Yeah, this really bothers me.  I can replay my same ME character, but I can't make a new Shepard- just too weird.  And watching YouTube videos is odd, too.  It's my character's voice but she looks different and is doing things I never did.  Feels schizo.  Maybe a year or two down the road I could replay.  I'd make a male Shepard but I hate the VO.

Um your voice is the same for every playthrougth if you are not voiced as well.  As in Mute.

<_<  It's a little easier to imagine different characters when they don't all sound exactly alike.  It's called imagination.  But I suppose you're just being obtuse and don't really need this explained.

Modifié par Addai67, 23 janvier 2011 - 12:49 .

[Master Assassin HK]

As long as the voices are good (they seem to be) then yea i think its great

[GodWood]

shinobi602 wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Do not like that it's changed to voiced protaganist.
Absolutely DESPISE the dialogue wheel.

This is expected, coming from you Godwood.

Everything is bad and terrible.

This is untrue.
Silent protaganist and full sentences (instead of paraphrases) are not bad or terrible at all.