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[didymos1120]

General User wrote...
The difference is that while humanity constantly trying to overcome its barbarous past, the batarians seem content to wallow in theirs.
 

Given that the vast majority of batarians live in a caste-ridden totalitarian state, I highly doubt "content" is even remotely accurate.

[Big stupid jellyfish]

Good post, OP. I have one thing to add, though:

Shepard's background.

Those whose Shepards were born and raised on Mindoir (and also those with 'War Hero'/'Ruthless' pre-service history) tend to be opposed against batarians much more than other. The same thing kinda takes place with a Sole Survivor + Cerberus mix. I find blindly hating X just because they did something to you in the past a bit... unprofessional? (I'm roleplaying the Sole Survivor and my Shep doesn't want to kill TIM just to take revenge.) Still, if someone is roleplaying a Shepard who wants to, say, kill each and every batarian because of Mindoir I respect the player's choice.

Back to the topic - it would be really nice to see a batarian squaddie in ME3, or at least to learn something new about the race in general, something that would make them more interesting and complex. I know a couple of players who have Mindoir Sheps and agree that having a batarian on board may be a source of interesting convos, conversations and may be interesting from role-playing point of view.

Also, there were a couple of threads where forumites were encouraged to be reasonable and the number of useless 'batarians hate hate11!!1' posts was not that large and I was pleased to see that while not many users are actively pro-batarian-squaddie they are not against the idea.

Modifié par Big stupid jellyfish, 23 janvier 2011 - 01:18 .

[ZachForrest]

General User wrote...

STG wrote...

Hmmm, well then I guess we mostly hate batarians because they remind us of our own dark past.

Or because of that annoying prophet.

Exactly! Like all aliens in ME, the batarians are caricatures of aspects of humanity. The difference is that while humanity constantly trying to overcome its barbarous past, the batarians seem content to wallow in theirs.
 
And if that weren’t enough, the batarians aren’t content to stay in their own borders and savage each other.  The batarians are a threat to others.

We can hate them for the former, and can be justified in destroying them by the later.

We don't really know how much they're wallowing. Parts of the hegemony could be in near or open revolt as far as we know.
And as humans our circumstances allowed us to overcome our brutality, maybe the Batarians weren't so lucky. Natural disaster, disease, poverty can bring out the worst in humans and can't always be controlled.

[General User]

didymos1120 wrote...

General User wrote...
The difference is that while humanity constantly trying to overcome its barbarous past, the batarians seem content to wallow in theirs.
 

Given that the vast majority of batarians live in a caste-ridden totalitarian state, I highly doubt "content" is even remotely accurate.

I don’t know. Oppressive labor systems (especially those backed by religious dogma) have an ancient track record of long-term stability and broad popular support within their home societies amongst humans. 
 
If batarians are really as much like us as they seem to be, they only those on the very, very bottom (who in many cases aren’t even batarians to begin with, and not even all of them) would likely be anything other than vigorously supportive of the caste system and the state that supports it.

Modifié par General User, 23 janvier 2011 - 01:26 .

[FrancisKitt]

Worked well for Tsarist Russia.

[General User]

ZachForrest wrote...

General User wrote...

Exactly! Like all aliens in ME, the batarians are caricatures of aspects of humanity. The difference is that while humanity constantly trying to overcome its barbarous past, the batarians seem content to wallow in theirs.
 
And if that weren’t enough, the batarians aren’t content to stay in their own borders and savage each other.  The batarians are a threat to others.

We can hate them for the former, and can be justified in destroying them by the later.

We don't really know how much they're wallowing. Parts of the hegemony could be in near or open revolt as far as we know.
And as humans our circumstances allowed us to overcome our brutality, maybe the Batarians weren't so lucky. Natural disaster, disease, poverty can bring out the worst in humans and can't always be controlled.

Luck, schluck! The circumstances the batarians find themselves in and what the batarians do amongst themselves in entirely their own business.   
 
The problem comes when they interact with other cultures. Omega seems to be the only place in ME where we interact with (potential) ‘everyman’ batarians. And they seemed like decent enough chaps to me. Kaidan might have called them “sinners and saints, just like us” (or something like that).
 
But, then again, they weren’t living under batarian rule, or even in a mainstream batarian culture. They were living under the de facto rule of an asari crime-lord lady in a largely lawless multicultural city.

[masterkajo]

My Shepards hates Batarians because they killed her family and friends.

[didymos1120]

General User wrote...
If batarians are really as much like us as they seem to be, the[n] only those on the very, very bottom

Given the way such societies tend to work, that would the vast majority of them.

(who in many cases aren’t even batarians to begin with, and not even all of them)

And you know that how?

would likely be anything other than vigorously supportive of the caste system and the state that supports it.

Uh-huh.  How about you provide a historical cite on this notion.  Preferably not a source written by a member of the privileged classes.

Modifié par didymos1120, 23 janvier 2011 - 01:49 .

[ZachForrest]

General User wrote...

ZachForrest wrote...

General User wrote...

Exactly! Like all aliens in ME, the batarians are caricatures of aspects of humanity. The difference is that while humanity constantly trying to overcome its barbarous past, the batarians seem content to wallow in theirs.
 
And if that weren’t enough, the batarians aren’t content to stay in their own borders and savage each other.  The batarians are a threat to others.

We can hate them for the former, and can be justified in destroying them by the later.

We don't really know how much they're wallowing. Parts of the hegemony could be in near or open revolt as far as we know.
And as humans our circumstances allowed us to overcome our brutality, maybe the Batarians weren't so lucky. Natural disaster, disease, poverty can bring out the worst in humans and can't always be controlled.

Luck, schluck! The circumstances the batarians find themselves in and what the batarians do amongst themselves in entirely their own business.   
 
The problem comes when they interact with other cultures. Omega seems to be the only place in ME where we interact with (potential) ‘everyman’ batarians. And they seemed like decent enough chaps to me. Kaidan might have called them “sinners and saints, just like us” (or something like that).
 
But, then again, they weren’t living under batarian rule, or even in a mainstream batarian culture. They were living under the de facto rule of an asari crime-lord lady in a largely lawless multicultural city.

So you agree there's nothing inherently malignant about batarians? cause that's all i'm saying

[General User]

didymos1120 wrote...

Given the way such societies tend to work, that would the vast majority of them.

Yep.

didymos1120 wrote...
And you know that how?

Just to be clear, ‘many’, not ‘most.’  But I’m basing the idea that batarians routinely take alien (at least human) slaves off two main things. 
 
Firstly, Mindoir was some 20-30 odd years prior to Mass Effect, and I doubt it was the first such raid. But, even if it was, it still means that the batarians have been raiding human colonies for slaves for pushing 3 decades. 
 
Secondly, Charn describes how the Terra Nova operation was pitched to him as a routine slave grab. I have no reason to doubt him on this point.

Now, why would someone on the bottom rung of a society support that society?  Any number of reasons!  From the faint hope for advancement to mere social conditoning.  The reasons are almost as varied as those who use them.

didymos1120 wrote...
Uh-huh.  How about you provide a historical cite on this notion.  Preferably not a source written by a member of the privileged classes.

I’m not sure that’s even possible, since for most of human history the privileged classes have been the only literate ones (besides this is an internet forum not a bloody term paper). 
 
I’ll gladly provide historical examples of societies with oppressive labor systems backed by religious dogma that enjoyed broad popular support and you can decide for yourself if my opinion has any basis in fact or not.
 
Sticking with Western/European Civilization:
Pharonic Egypt
Ancient Greece
Republican/Imperial Rome (they admittedly went light on the religion in their brand of slavery)
Medieval Serfdom
European Feudalism
Post-Medieval serfdom (ie Tsarist Russia, props FrancisKitt)
Pre/Post independence Latin America
Pre/Post US Civil War North America (more pronounced, but far from exclusively located in the US south)
Unskilled, early industrial labor (more a moral system than a religious one here, still works)
Unskilled, modern, foreign industrial labor (dropped the religion bit, the tune changes, the dance stays the same)

Modifié par General User, 23 janvier 2011 - 02:27 .

[ZachForrest]

Tsarist Russia ended well didn't it. Very popular

[General User]

ZachForrest wrote...

So you agree there's nothing inherently malignant about batarians? cause that's all i'm saying

On a genetic level? Of course there’s nothing inherently malignant about batarians! Just like there’s nothing inherently malignant about yahg, or krogan, or rachni.
 
On a cultural level though there IS something inherently malignant about batarians. They seek to enslave members of other societies. 
 
While the other three peoples previously mentioned were isolated, neutered (and not just reproductively), and (almost) exterminated respectively, the batarian threat has yet to be dealt with.

So "I don't hate batarians" and "all batarians should be killed" are not necessarily mutually exculsive positions.

ZachForrest wrote...
Tsarist Russia ended well didn't it. Very popular

None of those ended well. The French Revolution and US Civil War/Reconstruction weren’t exactly Sunday picnics. 

But, during their run, they enjoyed extensive popular support, often even from the oppressed classes, often for (as in Tsar’s case) centuries (in Egypt’s case, millennia).

Modifié par General User, 23 janvier 2011 - 02:45 .

[ZachForrest]

You see no other option than to exterminate all the Batarians?

[General User]

 
I think the batarians should be treated somewhat like the krogan, minus the genophage. Isolated to their homeworld and restricted in the technology available to them until such time as they are no longer a threat to others.
 
I see wholesale extermination as the absolute last option, though it is very much on the table. Much as it is for the Reapers.

Modifié par General User, 23 janvier 2011 - 02:53 .

[ZachForrest]

what possible benefit is there in extermination?

[Aeowyn]

Why exterminate the batarians? I refuse to believe that all of them are "evil". They've grown up in a society that has slaves in their caste system and sure, I don't believe it's right to raid colonies and use them as slaves, but all batarians aren't evil. This is why I'd like to explore the Batarian hegemony more, and maybe even have a batarian squad member in ME3.

[General User]

Extermination has one undeniable benefit, it’s permanent.



Whether neutralizing the batarian menace in such a manner would be a net gain or loss, who’s to say? We’d need a crystal ball to know for sure.



“But rest assured, the original problem will be solved.” (Levitt/Dubner, Freakonomics)

[Fiery Phoenix]

I have nothing to contribute to here, but Aeowyn's second signature bar just totally made my day!

[Bad King]

I'd love a scene in ME3 where in the final battle against the reapers the Batarians launch an epic assault on the reapers suffering massive cassualties but managing to take the reapers' attention away from earth long enough for the humans to evacuate their leaders and some of their people.



That would silence all the Batarian haters.

[ZachForrest]

General User wrote...

Extermination has one undeniable benefit, it’s permanent.

Whether neutralizing the batarian menace in such a manner would be a net gain or loss, who’s to say? We’d need a crystal ball to know for sure.

“But rest assured, the original problem will be solved.” (Levitt/Dubner, Freakonomics)

If you wanna get all economist on me.

cost of exterminating batarians>>>>cost a few humans being abducted/killed whatever



much better to open up communication

or send in STG to start uprising in outlying groups under the hegemony

[General User]

ZachForrest wrote...

General User wrote...
Extermination has one undeniable benefit, it’s permanent.

Whether neutralizing the batarian menace in such a manner would be a net gain or loss, who’s to say? We’d need a crystal ball to know for sure.

“But rest assured, the original problem will be solved.” (Levitt/Dubner, Freakonomics)

If you wanna get all economist on me.

cost of exterminating batarians>>>>cost a few humans being abducted/killed whatever



much better to open up communication

or send in STG to start uprising in outlying groups under the hegemony

It’s not about cost, it’s about solving problems.  Continued batarian slave raids on human colonies are absolutely intolerable, any and all means must be put on the table to bring them to a stop, permanently.
 
You know what Teddy Roosevelt said about communication, right? Any communication between humanity and the batarians is FAR more likely to be productive if the Hegemony fleet is scrap metal and the Alliance fleet is in Khar’Shan orbit.
 
Even with outside support, slave uprisings have a sad, bloody (nigh onto exclusive) history of defeat and failure.     

[CroGamer002]

I only hate Batarians do to slavery.

I never cared about anything else since RL propaganda just made me sympathetic to those regimes and not care about terrorists.

[STG]

ZachForrest wrote...

or send in STG to start uprising in outlying groups under the hegemony

Sir, yes sir.

[Aeowyn]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I have nothing to contribute to here, but Aeowyn's second signature bar just totally made my day!

Thanks:happy:


Actually in ME3 I'd love to find out more about the Batarian rebellion Balak spoke of and also if it's connected to the Leviathan of DI

[AxoneNeurone]

It amuses me that three of the four points about batarians could also apply to Cerberus. Hee hee.

The "average joe" batarian is likely a worker with no hope of advancing beyond his/her station in life and who is spoon-fed propaganda by their oppressive government. I don't hate 'em. I think that like all races, batarians should be judged on an individual basis. It's like saying you hate all of the human characters. I mean, if that's your thing, go for it, but each individual has the potential to be endearing (like Joker) or irritating (like Conrad
Verner).

Saying that everyone should hate all batarians because of what some batarians did is like blaming Dr. Chakwas for all of the heinous acts The Illusive Man has committed. It's silly. I would love to see a batarian squadmate, or at least a major batarian character who is on Shep's side. There are many concepts for a sympathetic batarian character that I could think of, much less the highly-talented ME writing team.

For instance, how cool would it be to have a squadmate who is an escaped revolutionary, and who has sought Shepard out because of his/her reputation? And for colonists, this revolutionary could convince Shep to aid his/her cause on the grounds that a revolutionized batarian society would not need the crutch of slavery, and success for his/her campaign would prevent another Mindoir from ever happening. I mean, there's one possibility for a character who isn't just plain rotten.

And if we're going to argue against slavery, then let's not forget that asari are also slave-holders. It is, after all, legal on Illium, which is an asari world. Granted, this means that any species with corporate ties to Illium might also be to blame, but seeing as how the world is asari-controlled, it's their responsibility. And I know that asari rub a lot of people the wrong way, but they are treated with considerably more leniency than their less-attractive alien counterparts. Double standard, much?

That's just my two cents as to Why I Don't Hate Batarians. But, by all means, if hating them is fun for you, go for it. This is a game, after all. It is meant to be entertaining, and if hating batarians is how you are entertained, then who am I to say you're not doing it properly?

Modifié par AxoneNeurone, 23 janvier 2011 - 04:59 .